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Not open carry or firearm...but related! Va Knife laws vagueness.

Cmdr_Haggis

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Messages
54
Location
Leesburg, VA
...
Now the funny thing is that since Va. is a Dillon Rule state, all those silly a$$ Muni Laws listed above that specify blade length except as noted,are unenforceable.
...

One thing that always sits in the back of my mind is my family. While the municipal codes for some things might be unenforceable, do I risk my family's well-being to play the odds. Not many of us can afford to lose our livelihood tempting fate and the wrath of asinine "feel good" laws.

...
They could pull a cabbies license for carrying but they couldn't charge him with a crime ..IMO.
...

If I'm a cabbie and they pinch me on some asinine "feel good" law, they might not be able to charge me with a crime, but taking my hack license might be just as bad. See above.
 

peter nap

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One thing that always sits in the back of my mind is my family. While the municipal codes for some things might be unenforceable, do I risk my family's well-being to play the odds. Not many of us can afford to lose our livelihood tempting fate and the wrath of asinine "feel good" laws.



If I'm a cabbie and they pinch me on some asinine "feel good" law, they might not be able to charge me with a crime, but taking my hack license might be just as bad. See above.

I understand Cmdr!
The problem is that's the chilling effect I continue to harp on.

That's the reason the Militias are ineffective to the point of being laughable. They march around and talk tough until they're needed, then they hear mama.

I honestly do understand but back to the real world. If you're not willing to come out swinging, you have to fork over your lunch money.

I don't often quote the founding fathers because they are so often quoted by people like the above militias, but Franklin knew the problem even then.

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Or as Country people back home say "Root Hog or Die".
 
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Cmdr_Haggis

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Messages
54
Location
Leesburg, VA
...
I honestly do understand but back to the real world. If you're not willing to come out swinging, you have to fork over your lunch money.

I don't often quote the founding fathers because they are so often quoted by people like the above militias, but Franklin knew the problem even then.

...

If I might give an example: I don't agree with the GFSZ Act. As much as I want to see this law repealed, I won't come out swinging by walking onto school grounds with a gun; I'll press for my "good folks" in Congress or the Assembly to do right. Often on the forum I've seen it asked who would be a test case for XYZ law; not many have raised their hand to volunteer - not because there are no brave souls to do so, but likely because there are other obligations in life beyond the good fight.

There is a saying, attributed to various persons, which I'm sure we've all heard. We have four boxes from which to defend Liberty - the soap box; the ballot box; the jury box; and, should all else fail, the cartridge box. No doubt Franklin went in that order, too, advocated the first three defenses before being forced to resort to the final one.

Now, I've not been called to jury duty, but I'm always on my soap box in defense of our rights. Come November I hope we're all at our ballot boxes. And should we prevail, there will be no need to reach for the cartridge box. Well, self-defense and good old target plinking notwithstanding! :lol:

You know, I wouldn't mind being in the jury box for a self-defense case. It might do well to remind the courts that jury nullification is very much a valid course of action.
 

peter nap

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If I might give an example: I don't agree with the GFSZ Act. As much as I want to see this law repealed, I won't come out swinging by walking onto school grounds with a gun; I'll press for my "good folks" in Congress or the Assembly to do right. Often on the forum I've seen it asked who would be a test case for XYZ law; not many have raised their hand to volunteer - not because there are no brave souls to do so, but likely because there are other obligations in life beyond the good fight.

There is a saying, attributed to various persons, which I'm sure we've all heard. We have four boxes from which to defend Liberty - the soap box; the ballot box; the jury box; and, should all else fail, the cartridge box. No doubt Franklin went in that order, too, advocated the first three defenses before being forced to resort to the final one.

Now, I've not been called to jury duty, but I'm always on my soap box in defense of our rights. Come November I hope we're all at our ballot boxes. And should we prevail, there will be no need to reach for the cartridge box. Well, self-defense and good old target plinking notwithstanding! :lol:

You know, I wouldn't mind being in the jury box for a self-defense case. It might do well to remind the courts that jury nullification is very much a valid course of action.

That's an excellent example so I'll explain the facts on it.

Very few of us would be a good test case. It took years to find Heller but I'd like to remind you that Chippers are a very small minority in Virginia. I grew up carrying a gun as did my peers. The 2% that are the loudest about their RIGHTS with a CHP, are mostly City People, Golly Gee Kids and Transplants.

For every one person that gets a CHP to be safe from the dreaded GFZ, thousands of us drive past schools armed, just as we've always done here.

I've done my Jury Duty and from the looks of the paperwork I've been getting the last few months, I'll have to do it again.

I've voted in every election since I was 18 and that was a very long time ago.

I have no idea if I'll ever have to jump on the cartridge box but if I do, I want people I can depend on by my side, not people who just give the cause lip service. They always have and always will....hear Mama Calling!

Now I don't agree with Thundar for example, about his feelings about VCDL as a whole. I'd trust Philip or Dale with my life, the same with many other VCDL members and hierarchy.....but I'd rather have Thundar on my side than a hundred EM's that want to trade MY rights, for a quick CHP victory in the General Assembly.
 
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user

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Northern Piedmont
"Like kind" analysis

I've seen General District Court judges rule that something with a sharp edge on it that's not a "scout knife" is of "like kind", without specifying "like what", with respect to the four kinds of prohibited edged weapons. There was one case, thankfully overturned on appeal, in which a box-cutter was declared "of like kind" to a straight-razor.

In addition to what P.N. said about dirks and bowies: a dirk is a stabbing weapon, double-edged, and of sufficient length to penetrate the vitals, e.g., at least ten inches. A bowie is the frontiersman's friend, good for skinning a bear as well as hand-to-hand combat. They generally have a dropped point and a swept blade with a pronounced curvature (the picture P.N. used is a milder curve than most I've seen) and sometimes a blood-letting groove. Minimum length is generally eight to twelve inches.

The other two are switchblades, spring-loaded with locking blades that are revealed by pressing a release catch, button, or switch, and ballistic knives, which are often cylindrical and generally have no "handle". They are contained in the bottom of a tube of some kind and are under tremendous spring tension. When a catch (similar to a switchblade), the entire knife is ejected from the tube. If you saw "The Punisher", there's a scene in which the protagonist is crawling out of his overturned car and his would-be assassin jokes about how he brought a knife to a gunfight. There's a click, and the ballistic knife is sticking through the guy's throat, which is leaking profusely, to the accompaniament of his gurgling noises.

What people are really afraid of with knives is the "silent killer" thing (other than after I've eaten too much garlic, that is, though they should know enough to fear that as well). Same reason silencers are restricted. Guns make a lot of noise, and it's hard to kill someone with a gun and not alert someone to the situation. The knives in those four categories (and of course you can add shuriken, nunchucks, machetes, and straight-razors to the list) are regarded as murderers' weapons. I think it's really that simple.

My favorite for carrying around in the woods is a Fallkniven S1, picture attached. Because it's a single edged knife with a slightly swept blade and dropped point, I have no doubt that a local court would characterize my camping/fishing knife as a "bowie", even though it's about four and a half inches long.
 

Grapeshot

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Dan that's what we used to call a camp knife or simply a utility knife.

Used to carry a similar one on my hip all summer long from the age of 8 years old in northern Minn. lake country. Now not so much, mostly a flip folder unless overnighting in the woods.
 

45acpForMe

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Joined
Nov 21, 2008
Messages
2,805
Location
Yorktown, Virginia, USA
murderers' weapons

User I understand the thinking that a murderer would use something like a bowie but they also use cars! Should we ban the use of cars for everyone because someone may misuse them? I am against any law that lacks some intent clause. So in the world according to 45acpForMe if you are walking your dog on school property, OC-ing (or CCing) a gun or bowie knife is 100% legal. Now if you are chasing elementary schoolers around with a bowie knife that shows intent of wrongdoing and is 100% illegal. No law is going to stop a criminal from doing what they will do so why punish 99.99999% of the population that would carrry a knife for the mishaps of criminals.

I know you aren't disagreeing with me so don't take anything personal. I just would like to clean up the gun laws and knife laws (or any laws) to at minimum include "with criminal intent"!

For me my knife is my never-ending ammo-supply, only to be used after my 45acp ammo has been used up. A double edged knife works better in that role and I would like to carry it!
 

user

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I suppose I was clear as mud in my prior comment. Point was about the abusive nature of lawn forcement. If I got stopped for something and I had that camping knife inside a jacket or some such, I'm quite sure I'd be arrested for "carrying a concealed weapon", even though there's no way that knife could be construed as anything "like" one of the prohibited items.
 

peter nap

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The Silent Killer:lol:

It's possible to kill some silently if you cut their throat, completely penetrate the skull or sever the spine. All hard to do.

I was stabbed once and it was anything BUT QUIET!
 

45acpForMe

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The Silent Killer:lol:

It's possible to kill some silently if you cut their throat, completely penetrate the skull or sever the spine. All hard to do.

I was stabbed once and it was anything BUT QUIET!

There is the phrase "squeal like a stuck pig" that comes to mind. :)

I am surprised our legislature hasn't included piano wire on their list of no-no's.
 

Epicyon

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Sep 9, 2011
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Location
Newport News
I've been stopped twice and had my 6" Cold Steel Voyager taken off of me. Both they mentioned that it was illegal to carry because of blade length but that they were going to do me a favor and just warn me.

When I pressed them about where it said they were illegal they would just say 18.2-308 but wouldn't specify what it specifically said. I'm guessing that they were thinking of the "in schools" section.

I've often been tempted to CC a small axe or ball peen hammer to get around the fact that I can't CC my favorite bowie.

I'm also curious about what reaction I would get from open carrying a 10+" blade. I see guys carrying smaller 4-6" knives openly all the time.
 

peter nap

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I've been stopped twice and had my 6" Cold Steel Voyager taken off of me. Both they mentioned that it was illegal to carry because of blade length but that they were going to do me a favor and just warn me.

When I pressed them about where it said they were illegal they would just say 18.2-308 but wouldn't specify what it specifically said. I'm guessing that they were thinking of the "in schools" section.

I've often been tempted to CC a small axe or ball peen hammer to get around the fact that I can't CC my favorite bowie.

I'm also curious about what reaction I would get from open carrying a 10+" blade. I see guys carrying smaller 4-6" knives openly all the time.

Careful carrying the 10+ blades. There is a statute (I'll look it up if someone screams...Ed:p) about machetes. There is even a "Brandishing a machete" statute. Try to define "Machete".

A number of years ago I came up with a hatchet sheath that carries it upright on your belt. I gave the prototype to the leather worker on "John Adams" and I think I gave the hatchet I made for it to the shipbuilder who is also one of the Shipbuilders at Jamestown. I have visions of him CCin that hatchet to work every day to get around their no weapons for employees rule.:lol:

One of the Wetterling Small Hunting Axes would be perfect for concealment in it.
Small_Hunting_Axe.jpg
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
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As we have said many times, that is not a machete. It is a gardening tool.

Either that or the tire iron in my vehicle is in fact a burglar tool.:uhoh:

stay safe.
 

user

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The Silent Killer:lol:

It's possible to kill some silently if you cut their throat, completely penetrate the skull or sever the spine. All hard to do.

I was stabbed once and it was anything BUT QUIET!

Yeah, but it's not about reality, it's about fear. Sometimes people pass laws because they think making a rule will keep something they're afraid of from happening. They're like my dog. I took him with me a couple of times when I had hearings in far-off-distant parts of Virginia; a couple of times I put his food out in the hotel room just before I left, as I was in mad-dash mode; the next time I put the food out, the dog wouldn't eat. He was convinced that if he started eating, I'd leave. Good thing he's not in the legislature.
 
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user

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I've been stopped twice and had my 6" Cold Steel Voyager taken off of me. Both they mentioned that it was illegal to carry because of blade length but that they were going to do me a favor and just warn me. ...
There is no general length requirement, other than the 3.5" possession on school property thing. But that knife (assuming the now discontinued XS model) is a folding knife, and not a bowie, which by definition has a fixed blade. It's not the right shape for a bowie, and way too short. So unless you're particularly looking for trouble, stop calling it a bowie. It's a pocket knife.

By the way, what was the cause of the stop in each of those two cases?
 

45acpForMe

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There is no general length requirement, other than the 3.5" possession on school property thing. But that knife (assuming the now discontinued XS model) is a folding knife, and not a bowie, which by definition has a fixed blade. It's not the right shape for a bowie, and way too short. So unless you're particularly looking for trouble, stop calling it a bowie. It's a pocket knife.

By the way, what was the cause of the stop in each of those two cases?

VA Law says anything 3" or larger is considered a weapon on school property! Not 3.5"! I have a 2.75" blade I always carry since I have to leave my longer folding knife in the car each time I go to school.

From: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.1

For the purposes of this paragraph, "weapon" includes a knife having a metal blade of
three inches or longer

Also see post #15 for local ordinances that do address length.
 
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Epicyon

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I wasn't calling it a bowie, I was saying that I wish I could carry one of my bowies.

I know the voyager isn't illegal. I'm pretty sure they would have arrested me if they thought they could have. But thank you for the input. I guess my post wasn't clear enough.

The first was was for a headlight being out the other one was for breaching the white line on the side of the road in a long right hand curve.

The second time they questioned me about drugs in the car for a solid 30 minutes. As soon as I told them that they did not have permission to search the vehicle they pulled me out of it.

I'd like to get a Jenny Wren from RMJ tactical. That Wetterling axe is a nice one too.
3.jpg


This is the bowie I carry around the house
IMG_0132-B.jpg


I didn't carry a gun for a long time, even the most inexpensive are a lot more expensive then a good knife. For a long time I didn't have the money to invest in a firearm. I'm a bigger guy and have done lots of different combatives with and without weapons. I'm pretty comfortable with my hands and very comfortable with a blade.

That's why laws like this piss me off. I should be allowed to use a gun, knife, spatula, whatever, to defend myself. I hate that I have to worry about the tool I use as much as navigating the legality of the incident as well.
 

marshaul

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Aug 13, 2007
Messages
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Fairfax County, Virginia
I’ve always held the belief that anyone who wishes, should carry a gun…..I may rethink that idea!

I'm telling you, government employees don't have the requisite degree of training and accountability that we citizens have. They really can't justify being armed. There is blood in the streets (notice I didn't say "will be").
 
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