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Michigan OC question

Detroit5906

Newbie
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Messages
7
I know that you cannot OC is a place licensed under the liquor control act but does that mean restaurant, supermarkets, and 7-11's are no go's for OC?
 

SpringerXDacp

New member
Joined
May 12, 2006
Messages
3,341
Location
Burton, Michigan
From your thread started in the Open Carry Questions forum:

Hey guys! So I'm not a CPL holder because I'm 19 however I'm a legal firearm owner. My parents and most family members are CPL holders however since the rules are different for OC without a CPL I have a few questions. I know I can carry in most any public place and places such as malls, stores, etc as long as there are no policies or postings against it. And I understand that to OC is public schools you need a CPL. However I do have a few questions.
1) Can I open carry in restaurants (Applebee's, outback, etc) that serve alcohol?

2) can I OC in places that are licensed under an FFL? (can I carry a firearm into a Dunham's, dicks, cabelas?) I wondered if since they're federally licensed if somehow they have to follow federal gun jurisdiction.

3) Is OC really worth it? I understand what's legal and what isn't but I'm concerned that I'll end up getting arrested for violating some obscure law since it seems most people frown on OC.

Thanks guys hope these questions aren't too dumb but I've been researching and talking to law enforcement agents for weeks before I think about walking out of the house with a gun.

1) No, unless you have permission from the owner or an agent of the Owner. See 750.234d below:

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(w1...g.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-750-234d

(a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

(b) A peace officer.

(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

(d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

2) Yes, but remember all are private property and they can post (signs) prohibiting their clientele to carry (CC and OC) loaded firearms and/or ask you to leave. Yes, all are federally licensed (ATF) but they are not federal property any more than banks insured by FDIC.

3) Some say it's worth it some don't. It's a decision "you" have to make and no one on here or elsewhere can make that decision for you.
 

Shadow Bear

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Dec 17, 2010
Messages
1,004
Location
Grand Rapids
First- welcome to open carry. It will become significantly easier when you reach 21 and can get a CPL. There are many pitfalls to OC without a CPL, and you wisely asked about some of them, and got a great answer. Be espescially careful about vehicles. There is no way yo 'open carry' in (or on) a motor vehicle in Michigan.

The hard question is, 'is it worth it?'. This is a deeply personal choice that only you can answer. My experience as a somewhat grizzled 56 year old white male is likely not going to be yours. While many cry that one's appearance should not matter, it does. It's simply human nature. Just know that your appearance and demeanor will significantly affect people's reaction to you.

Know that even if you present an 'neutral' appearance, with a mature demeanor, you may still get approached by well meaning, but misinformed individuals who take exception to your choice to carry a sidearm. This may include interaction with law enforcement.

I can only say, study, and study hard, the laws for yourself. No one on the internet will be able to testify on your behalf if something goes awry. You must know the law intimately, and have the composure to keep quiet during a law enforcement encounter. You have the right to remain silent; the hard part is actually remaining silent. Watch [video=youtube;6wXkI4t7nuc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc[/video] ('Don't Talk to the Police).

One major piece of advice I always, always, preach- get a pocket digital recorder. There are many available for a small price. Keep it on you, and recording, AT ALL TIMES, from when you strap your sidearm on, to when you put it in the safe. DO NOT expect that you will have time to turn it on at the beginning of an encounter. If you are being stopped by law enforcement, you DO NOT want to make any 'sudden, furtive moves', as you may encounter extreme violence on the law enforcement officer's side. Have the recorder going ALWAYS.

Why? Because your behaviour immediately prior to the stop may be in question. There was a stop in Grand Rapids about 1 and 1/2 years ago wherein the responding officer made a statement upon arriving at the scene, that the subject was 'talking to himself', thereby justifying his illegal, violent take down of the subject. It was clear from the camera angle in the officer's car that it was impossible to make that determination from behind the subject, and at that distance, but it would have been nice to have had evidence of the moments immediately proceeding, that the subject was not verbalizing anything, that he was simply walking down the street. The officer was establishing his 'fable' to justify his violence. Fortunately, the facts did not support his rationale for his unnecessary aggression. Note, the new chief of GRPD refuses to equip his officers with body cams, obviously so this pattern of deceit and unwarranted violence may continue unabated.

There are many open carry events in the southeast Michigan area, both seminars put on by Michigan Open Carry, and luncheons and dinners for like minded folks to meet. They're also good ways to open carry for your first time, and to build confidence. Keep an eye on the top of the Michigan forum for event information. http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?155-Michigan-Events and http://miopencarry.org/.
 
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Detroit5906

Newbie
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Messages
7
First- welcome to open carry. It will become significantly easier when you reach 21 and can get a CPL. There are many pitfalls to OC without a CPL, and you wisely asked about some of them, and got a great answer. Be espescially careful about vehicles. There is no way yo 'open carry' in (or on) a motor vehicle in Michigan.

The hard question is, 'is it worth it?'. This is a deeply personal choice that only you can answer. My experience as a somewhat grizzled 56 year old white male is likely not going to be yours. While many cry that one's appearance should not matter, it does. It's simply human nature. Just know that your appearance and demeanor will significantly affect people's reaction to you.

Know that even if you present an 'neutral' appearance, with a mature demeanor, you may still get approached by well meaning, but misinformed individuals who take exception to your choice to carry a sidearm. This may include interaction with law enforcement.

I can only say, study, and study hard, the laws for yourself. No one on the internet will be able to testify on your behalf if something goes awry. You must know the law intimately, and have the composure to keep quiet during a law enforcement encounter. You have the right to remain silent; the hard part is actually remaining silent. Watch [video=youtube;6wXkI4t7nuc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc[/video] ('Don't Talk to the Police).

One major piece of advice I always, always, preach- get a pocket digital recorder. There are many available for a small price. Keep it on you, and recording, AT ALL TIMES, from when you strap your sidearm on, to when you put it in the safe. DO NOT expect that you will have time to turn it on at the beginning of an encounter. If you are being stopped by law enforcement, you DO NOT want to make any 'sudden, furtive moves', as you may encounter extreme violence on the law enforcement officer's side. Have the recorder going ALWAYS.

Why? Because your behaviour immediately prior to the stop may be in question. There was a stop in Grand Rapids about 1 and 1/2 years ago wherein the responding officer made a statement upon arriving at the scene, that the subject was 'talking to himself', thereby justifying his illegal, violent take down of the subject. It was clear from the camera angle in the officer's car that it was impossible to make that determination from behind the subject, and at that distance, but it would have been nice to have had evidence of the moments immediately proceeding, that the subject was not verbalizing anything, that he was simply walking down the street. The officer was establishing his 'fable' to justify his violence. Fortunately, the facts did not support his rationale for his unnecessary aggression. Note, the new chief of GRPD refuses to equip his officers with body cams, obviously so this pattern of deceit and unwarranted violence may continue unabated.

There are many open carry events in the southeast Michigan area, both seminars put on by Michigan Open Carry, and luncheons and dinners for like minded folks to meet. They're also good ways to open carry for your first time, and to build confidence. Keep an eye on the top of the Michigan forum for event information. http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?155-Michigan-Events and http://miopencarry.org/.
Thank you for the info! It's greatly appreciated.
 

Evil Creamsicle

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2009
Messages
1,264
Location
Police State, USA
I know that you cannot OC is a place licensed under the liquor control act but does that mean restaurant, supermarkets, and 7-11's are no go's for OC?

Something to add to Springer's already pretty informative post is this:

That the establishment *serves* alcohol is not required for OC without a CPL to be illegal, only that the establishment is *licensed*.

It is possible for something like a gas station to be *licensed* to sell alcohol even if the do not actually sell any alcohol. Caution is recommended.
 

Detroit5906

Newbie
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Messages
7
It seems like you really can't OC anywhere without worrying about getting in trouble.
 

Detroit5906

Newbie
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Messages
7
I thought OC was allowed in places that served alcohol if less than 50% of their income was generated by sale of alcohol by the glass
 

Raggs

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2012
Messages
1,181
Location
Wild Wild West Michigan
I thought OC was allowed in places that served alcohol if less than 50% of their income was generated by sale of alcohol by the glass

It is, with a CPL

You might want to arrange getting with Evil Creamsicle for coffee or something. He is extremely knowledgeable on open carry
 
Last edited:

Evil Creamsicle

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2009
Messages
1,264
Location
Police State, USA
I thought OC was allowed in places that served alcohol if less than 50% of their income was generated by sale of alcohol by the glass

OC without CPL - prohibited if establishment is licensed by the liquor control act.
MCL 750.234d said:
(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
...
(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

CC with CPL - prohibited if the establishment's primary source of income is from open alcohol sales for consumption on the premises

MCL 28.425o said:
(1) Subject to subsection (5), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
...
(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.

OC with CPL - Legal

MCL 28.425o said:
(1) Subject to subsection (5), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
750.234d said:
(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
...
(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

You can read the full text of these laws here.
 
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B

Bikenut

Guest
Originally Posted by MCL 28.425o

(1) Subject to subsection (5), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
...
(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.
Seems to me that the language of the law does not mention any percentages like ... 50%... or 51%... it just says

primary source of income

An example.... if an establishment has an income of 35% from food and 25% from pool tables and 40% from the sale of alcohol the "primary source of income" would be 40%......
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Shadow Bear

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Dec 17, 2010
Messages
1,004
Location
Grand Rapids
Seems to me that the language of the law does not mention any percentages like ... 50%... or 51%... it just says

primary source of income

An example.... if an establishment has an income of 35% from food and 25% from pool tables and 40% from the sale of alcohol the "primary source of income" would be 40%......

This is exactly correct. Thanks for clarifying!
 

Evil Creamsicle

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2009
Messages
1,264
Location
Police State, USA
Seems to me that the language of the law does not mention any percentages like ... 50%... or 51%... it just says

primary source of income

An example.... if an establishment has an income of 35% from food and 25% from pool tables and 40% from the sale of alcohol the "primary source of income" would be 40%......

True, good point. Edited my post to reflect a more correct wording.
 

Detroit5906

Newbie
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Messages
7
So to be clear. Restaurants that sell alcohol as well as store such as Kroger and meijer are off limits it OC without a CPL because they're licensed under the Michigan liquor control act? Are these places required to post signs prohibiting carry of firearms? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding I'm just looking for clarification because the law language seems awfully wordy
 

Raggs

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2012
Messages
1,181
Location
Wild Wild West Michigan
So to be clear. Restaurants that sell alcohol as well as store such as Kroger and meijer are off limits it OC without a CPL because they're licensed under the Michigan liquor control act? Are these places required to post signs prohibiting carry of firearms? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding I'm just looking for clarification because the law language seems awfully wordy


yes they are off limits without a CPL

No they are not required to have signage pointing it out.
 
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