I594, OK DOL, what do I do now?

OC Freedom · Dec 5, 2014

Whitney said:
MSG Laigaie beat me to it. The point I was trying to talk around is the "SELLER" has to deliver the firearm to the FFL where the 4473 is then filled out.

Maybe you could observe me buy one and then report the big box store for conducting an unlawful transfer.

You and I can get arrested all day, (not likely in this case) but until pressure is on the box stores nothing is going to happen.

~Whitney

I was just being a smart a$$. Thats the problem with the written word, it cannot convey my "Bob Newhart" style of humor

Difdi · Dec 5, 2014

NavyLCDR said:
You bring up a very good question of RCW 9.41.010 (7), that we can’t interpret for you. You may have to seek your own legal advice to your question.

In other words, they won't tell you how to avoid breaking the law but will happily prosecute you for doing so. How precisely would a lawyer help with interpreting how a new law will be enforced?

deanf said:
What about it? They're not FFL items, so hardware stores don't need to apply for a license, if that's the tree you're barking up. Again, it's not up to the state to ensure hardware store compliance, any more than it's up to the state to ensure private party compliance. The burden is the same.

Yeah, you have a point, that they're not FFL licensees. As we all know, the state of Washington does not have any state-level statutes and does not operate state prisons, since all non-federal laws have been abolished. Oh, wait, you mean there are state laws? Whoops. Under I-594, all of those items that didn't need a background check to transfer suddenly do. Failing to run the check isn't illegal under federal law, but I-594 was not a federal bill and did not create a federal law -- it created a state law.

It is indeed up to the state to ensure hardware store compliance with state statutes.

Whitney · Dec 5, 2014

Defusing a bomb

OC Freedom said:
I was just being a smart a$$. Thats the problem with the written word, it cannot convey my "Bob Newhart" style of humor

Me too. ....I get it.

[video=youtube;ArMf6xbMsLI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArMf6xbMsLI[/video]

~Whitney

EasyGoin · Dec 5, 2014

4th of July

I'm really going to miss those mortars on the 4th of July. I bet the charities that run the fireworks stands are going to take a real hit with they can't sell mortars, roman candles or any number of things that get launched.

OC Freedom · Dec 5, 2014

Whitney said:
Me too. ....I get it.

[video=youtube;ArMf6xbMsLI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArMf6xbMsLI[/video]

~Whitney

:lol:

Jered · Dec 5, 2014

I'm going to be taking a trip to the grocery store tomorrow.

If I see party poppers, I'm going to report the store for unlawfully selling a firearm, since, under the definition of the law, those appear to be firearms.

Geerolla · Dec 6, 2014

OC Freedom said:
steps to take to get arrested

1) Purchase the powder actuated nail gun at store, if no background check is done then proceed to step 2.
2) Call the Police/Sheriff and inform them that you just purchased a firearm illegally an you wish a LEO to come and arrest you for your violating the law.
3) If they will not arrest you, get a copy of the police report and any other documentation showing you tried to turn yourself in.
4) Contact an attorney, the media, and whoever will help with your case of injustice. You broke the law and you want to be arrested and don't take no for an answer.

594 only makes it a crime for the seller if they sell to a buyer without a background check. The buyer is not responsible for this. The only way you can be arrested as a buyer is if you're a prohibited person, which was already illegal.

Sent from my UAV using Disposition Matrix 2.0

Geerolla · Dec 6, 2014

Jered said:
I'm going to be taking a trip to the grocery store tomorrow.

If I see party poppers, I'm going to report the store for unlawfully selling a firearm, since, under the definition of the law, those appear to be firearms.

Wow, those have gun powder??

Sent from my UAV using Disposition Matrix 2.0

Jered · Dec 6, 2014

Geerolla said:
Wow, those have gun powder??

Sent from my UAV using Disposition Matrix 2.0

Some of them have an explosive.

Dave_pro2a · Dec 6, 2014

NavyLCDR said:
We figured out they are exempt:
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.320

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=70.77.405

Which strongly implies the legal requirement to.... exempt powder actuated nail guns, or have them fall under the law as a firearm.

Geerolla · Dec 6, 2014

NavyLCDR said:
Could the buyer be charged for conspiring with the seller to violate the law?

Not aware of any law that designates that as a crime.

Sent from my UAV using Disposition Matrix 2.0

Difdi · Dec 6, 2014

Jered said:
Some of them have an explosive.

Is the word "explosive" defined in the RCWs? If not, we have to fall back on the scientific definition of an explosion, which is a rapid expansion of gas.

Under the scientific definition, a fire extinguisher operates by explosive means.

Geerolla · Dec 6, 2014

NavyLCDR said:
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.08.020

Interesting. Even if they encouraged the act, I think that would be very hard to prove in court, especially when the star witness will be charged as well, unless they're dumb enough to do so via text, email, etc. Considering the initial crime will be hard enough to prove itself, I just don't see that happening. Could result from a sting operation where the exchange was recorded, but I don't think those will be happening much either.

Either way, if a seller decides on his own not to do a background check, the buyer has not broken the law unless they're a prohibited person.

Sent from my UAV using Disposition Matrix 2.0

OC Freedom · Dec 6, 2014

Geerolla said:
594 only makes it a crime for the seller if they sell to a buyer without a background check. The buyer is not responsible for this. The only way you can be arrested as a buyer is if you're a prohibited person, which was already illegal.

Sent from my UAV using Disposition Matrix 2.0

Refer to my post #30, it explains my original posting that you think I need correcting on. I was just joking. Seems to me most people enjoy trying to one up each other on this site and argue on and on and on. Gee whiz.....

Difdi · Dec 7, 2014

NavyLCDR said:
We figured out they are exempt:
RCW 70.77.405
Authorized sales of toy caps, tricks, and novelties.

Toy paper caps containing not more than twenty-five hundredths grain of explosive compound for each cap and trick or novelty devices not classified as consumer fireworks may be sold at all times unless prohibited by local ordinance.

Unfortunately, most cap gun caps these days are made of plastic, not paper. I haven't taken apart a party popper recently -- do they still use paper or are they plastic now too?

Freedom1Man · Dec 7, 2014

NavyLCDR said:
We figured out they are exempt:
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.320

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=70.77.405

RCW 70.77.405
Authorized sales of toy caps, tricks, and novelties.

Toy paper caps containing not more than twenty-five hundredths grain of explosive compound for each cap and trick or novelty devices not classified as consumer fireworks may be sold at all times unless prohibited by local ordinance.

So the party poppers are not fireworks and they use and explosive to fire projectiles.

That means party poppers are firearms.

rapgood · Dec 7, 2014

Difdi said:
Is the word "explosive" defined in the RCWs? If not, we have to fall back on the scientific definition of an explosion, which is a rapid expansion of gas.

Under the scientific definition, a fire extinguisher operates by explosive means.

Falling back on the "scientific definition" might require the use of an expert witness to be admissible in court. Actually, the standard is much lower, "In the absence of a statutory definition, the words used are given their ordinary and usual meaning." State v. Forrester, 21 Wn. App. 855, 861, 587 P.2d 179 (1978).

END_THE_FED · Dec 8, 2014

EasyGoin said:
I'm really going to miss those mortars on the 4th of July. I bet the charities that run the fireworks stands are going to take a real hit with they can't sell mortars, roman candles or any number of things that get launched.

You need not miss them. They are "firearms" but pre-I-594 RCWs exempt the sub-class of "firearms" known as "fireworks" from the background check imposed under I-594.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.320

Freedom1Man · Dec 8, 2014

rapgood said:
Falling back on the "scientific definition" might require the use of an expert witness to be admissible in court. Actually, the standard is much lower, "In the absence of a statutory definition, the words used are given their ordinary and usual meaning." State v. Forrester, 21 Wn. App. 855, 861, 587 P.2d 179 (1978).

So, paintball guns that use small explosions of released compressed gas(es) might just fall under this law? Air rifles too?

Difdi · Dec 8, 2014

rapgood said:
Falling back on the "scientific definition" might require the use of an expert witness to be admissible in court. Actually, the standard is much lower, "In the absence of a statutory definition, the words used are given their ordinary and usual meaning." State v. Forrester, 21 Wn. App. 855, 861, 587 P.2d 179 (1978).

In other words, compressed gasses are indeed explosives.

Freedom1Man said:
So, paintball guns that use small explosions of released compressed gas(es) might just fall under this law? Air rifles too?

I only know of two types of paintball guns that use actual explosives rather than compressed gas to launch the paintball. Tippmann made a gun that ran on propane at one point (over 50,000 shots from each of those little disposable lantern/camp stove tanks) and some live fire exercises use paint pellet ammunition (launched from what amounts to .22 cartridges) to keep the casualties down.

But since common usage of the word explosion can include a bursting air tank, I'd say 594 may well apply to all airguns as well.

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