New member posting from Parker, CO....

Hello all. Just finally decided to register and post my first. I grew up in a hunting and shooting family, but when I went to college I sort of left it all behind. Got married, had a few kids, and suddenly realized it had been nearly 20 years since I fired a gun. Been talking to the wife and we jointly decided that we should exercise our rights as citizens and purchase a firearm.

Just to provide some incite into my mind set. I am doing this for more than one reason. My main reason is personal and family protection. But equally important is that in this day and age I have some to believe that a right not exercised is a right that will be lost in time. And as much as I want to protect my family I am equally concerned that I protect my individual rights. To that extent I intend to follow up with courses for CCW.

I've never personally owned a firearm because any firearms I used were family owned (ie, my dad). So last week I purchased a Glock 19 from a great place in Parker. Little plug here, the guys at Rocky Mountain Guns and Ammo in Parker were great to deal with and I see myself pretty much buying from them from now on. No comments on "eww a Glock" or "eww a 9mm" please. I know they are a love or hate on both accounts. Went to the range and ran 200 rds through it last weekend. I'm in love. You will not convince me I made a bad choice. In fact, I'll probably get a second Glock for my wife to CCW later. (PS, that was more a preemptive statement for SOME people. I know not everyone is so opinionated.)

I haven't OC'd yet, I actually haven't even purchased a holster yet. And I'm a budget conscious person because as much as I love the idea of exercising my rights, I already have an expensive hobby that means little is left for accessories. So I'm thinking about picking up the Glock combat and sport holster, but we'll see. Just can't afford a $100 holster right now.

OK, introduction over. Now for my comment. Thank you all so much for this resource. I want to be as informed as possible and this site has been a WEALTH of knowledge. I may not OC all the time just due to the logistics of it and being so close to Denver, but I do intend to make it a more common part of my day. Given what I have learned here, I am now much more prepared. Thanks again.

mobiushky said:

I've never personally owned a firearm because any firearms I used were family owned (ie, my dad). So last week I purchased a Glock 19 from a great place in Parker. Little plug here, the guys at Rocky Mountain Guns and Ammo in Parker were great to deal with and I see myself pretty much buying from them from now on. No comments on "eww a Glock" or "eww a 9mm" please. I know they are a love or hate on both accounts. Went to the range and ran 200 rds through it last weekend. I'm in love. You will not convince me I made a bad choice. In fact, I'll probably get a second Glock for my wife to CCW later. (PS, that was more a preemptive statement for SOME people. I know not everyone is so opinionated.)

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Welcome!! And no worries on the 9mm, I carry a 92FS.. =p

Remember that fruitcakes just make up for bad marksmanship, and you can put more pie on target in less time...

Seriously though, welcome enjoy your new Glock, and enjoy the forum!

--Rob

Bellum_Intus said:

Welcome!! And no worries on the 9mm, I carry a 92FS.. =p

Remember that fruitcakes just make up for bad marksmanship, and you can put more pie on target in less time...

Seriously though, welcome enjoy your new Glock, and enjoy the forum!

--Rob

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Big thanks. You know if I hadn't JUST read that whole thread, I might not get what you are saying. But then, I am partial to pie....

To me, it was surprisingly easy to get a moderately acceptable grouping on target from 15 feet. I'm FAR from expert, but I can still get a decent "protection level" grouping on a man sized target after not firing a gun for 20 years. So I'm confident I can do the job with my 9mm. I expect with classes (which I will be taking this summer) I'll improve that.

Only problems I need to conquer now are where to shoot cheaply and getting the best bang for the buck on Ammo. Like I said, I have one hobby already so I can't devote a lot of resources to shooting. Which sucks. But it is what it is.

mobiushky said:

I haven't OC'd yet, I actually haven't even purchased a holster yet. And I'm a budget conscious person because as much as I love the idea of exercising my rights, I already have an expensive hobby that means little is left for accessories. So I'm thinking about picking up the Glock combat and sport holster, but we'll see. Just can't afford a $100 holster right now.

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Welcome!

If I may recommend a couple holsters (which I happen to own for my Glock 19): For open carry, a Safariland 6378 and for concealed a Safariland 5181.

Both less than $30 each! The difference is that the 5181 has only friction for retention and can be grabbed if carrying openly. Hence the 6378 which has an inside thumb release for retention.

If you'd like to take a look at both holsters, come on down for our get together this Friday! See the sticky at the top of this forum.

O2

Ps. Take the links as a suggestion as to where to buy them, too!

Welcome
I'm in Highlands Ranch, a bit to your West and have just started back into this world myself. Going to a CCW class Saturday and in the meantime I purchased a G23 and have been doing some OCing. On a training OC experience we stopped into Rocky Mountain Guns. It did seem like a good place. Also experienced a MWAG incident right near there. It was a good and uneventful experience.

Again, Welcome

Bill

I'm such a nerd. I couldn't wait to get something so I went to The Gun Store in Centennial and picked up an Uncle Mike's Kydex Paddle holster. It was pretty inexpensive, $26. So I figure it will work as a decent range holster and occasional OC holster. I'm normally a research junkie. Like OCD about researching every single little thing about something before I buy. It can take me months to decide on what kind of tires to buy for my car, that kind of thing. Anyway, I read a few reviews and watched a few videos and I'm pretty happy with this holster. It's actually pretty good for the price.

Ok so I'm new here, and i have to ask, what is MWAG? I can figure out a lot of the abbreviations etc, but that one got me. Militant Woman Against Guns?

Also, I went to go for my first OC experience tonight and found a sign that I had to read. Went to a Chilli's. Now I know that you are not allowed to openly carry firearms in an establishment that sells alcohol. So I read as many of the city ordinances as I could. And I think I have a better handle sort of. (BTW, I'm an electrical engineer so codes are a daily part of my life.) Seems like you can't openly carry a weapon (of any kind) into an establishment where alcohol is sold for the purpose of consumption at that premises. But when you have CCW you can concealed carry. So long as you are not involved in a disturbance of the peace. Etc, etc. Still trying to figure out the public places portion. But it reads that you can't openly display a firearm in a restaurant or bar that sells alcohol, but retail stores are ok. Unless the owner posts that they don't allow it. However, you can concealed carry if you have a legal permit... Or something like that.

Can't really make the meet n greet this week, though I would love to. My wife is going through some treatments (LONG story) and it's tough to leave her alone except for work or hockey.

MWAG, Man With A Gun =)

==Rob

You most certainly can carry into places that serve alcohol...you just can't drink. The law only says that being under the influence is a violation, not carrying. C.R.S. 18-12-106

welcome!!!

PikesPeakMtnMan said:

You most certainly can carry into places that serve alcohol...you just can't drink. The law only says that being under the influence is a violation, not carrying. C.R.S. 18-12-106

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I believe that, but Parker City ordinance 8.09.070(a) says:

"It is unlawful for any person to carry, conceal, or display any dangerous or deadly weapon while such person is on the premises of any establishment where malt, vinous, or spirituous liquors are sold for consumption on the premises."

I defines a handgun as a dangerous or deadly weapon in the definitions section of the ordinance. It also goes on to say in 8.09.070(c):

"The provisions of Subsections (a) and (b) above shall not apply to peace officers or any other person duly licensed or authorized under applicable state or federal law to carry such weapon concealed."

In section 5.02.890 it levies punishment for violations.

So basically the city ordinance makes it a crime to OC in a place selling alcohol for consumption. But if you have a CCW you are ok. Unless you get drunk like you said. So that's the way I read it all. I am willing to admit if I read it wrong. I'm still learning.

Bellum_Intus said:

MWAG, Man With A Gun =)

==Rob

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Thank you. I know all the guys in Rocky Mountain carry. Really nice guys that will get you drawn into all kinds of discussions if you have a couple hours to kill. LOL. We got into a discussion about how kids don't respect authorities. they were talking about a bunch of teen age punks that came into the store and how they kept insulting the guys there cause they knew they couldn't hurt them.

mobiushky said:

I believe that, but Parker City ordinance 8.09.070(a) says:

"It is unlawful for any person to carry, conceal, or display any dangerous or deadly weapon while such person is on the premises of any establishment where malt, vinous, or spirituous liquors are sold for consumption on the premises."

I defines a handgun as a dangerous or deadly weapon in the definitions section of the ordinance. It also goes on to say in 8.09.070(c):

"The provisions of Subsections (a) and (b) above shall not apply to peace officers or any other person duly licensed or authorized under applicable state or federal law to carry such weapon concealed."

In section 5.02.890 it levies punishment for violations.

So basically the city ordinance makes it a crime to OC in a place selling alcohol for consumption. But if you have a CCW you are ok. Unless you get drunk like you said. So that's the way I read it all. I am willing to admit if I read it wrong. I'm still learning.

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Colorado pre-emption applies here. They can't prevent you OCing unless Parker owns the building and has posted "NO Open Carry" signs at all entrances. If a private property owner doesn't want your gun around, however, that's perfectly fine and you'll have to find another place to drink (soda, of course..while your unarmed buddies imbibe).

PikesPeakMtnMan said:

Colorado pre-emption applies here. They can't prevent you OCing unless Parker owns the building and has posted "NO Open Carry" signs at all entrances. If a private property owner doesn't want your gun around, however, that's perfectly fine and you'll have to find another place to drink (soda, of course..while your unarmed buddies imbibe).

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OK. I'll buy the pre-emption argument. But having said that, in a real world scenario, we're talking about an after the fact discussion with a cop right? I mean, most owners will see the ord. and follow it thinking it's the law. Then when the case goes to court we will have the pre-emption discussion, right? The issue then is less about what is actual law and what is perceived I guess. The ordinance even requires local owners to post this warning sign that says basically it's illegal to OC in this establishment. Kind of stupid really. But I think I see your point. Even though I'd probably lose the battle at the restaurant anyway.

has anyone OC'd in a restaurant or bar in Parker and have experience?

mobiushky said:

Just can't afford a $100 holster right now.

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Mine cost $22 at a gun show, and it's held up quite well for having used it every day for the last 2.8 years.

Given what I have learned here, I am now much more prepared. Thanks again.

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Yeah! Glad you finally chimed in!

PikesPeakMtnMan said:

Colorado pre-emption applies here. They can't prevent you OCing unless Parker owns the building and has posted "NO Open Carry" signs at all entrances. If a private property owner doesn't want your gun around, however, that's perfectly fine and you'll have to find another place to drink (soda, of course..while your unarmed buddies imbibe).

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Trust me, I'm just trying to learn and I'm not being argumentative. I am also kind of a sick person who loves to read codes and try to determine the correct interpretations. So forgive me if I am upsetting you.

I read more of the law and found this which is the portion of Senate Bill 25 from 2003, now the law and part of Title 29.

CRS 29-11.7-104. Regulation - carrying - posting

"A local government may enact an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area within the local government's jurisdiction. If a local government enacts an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area, the local government shall post signs at the public entrances to the building or specific area informing persons that the open carrying of firearms is prohibited in the building or specific area."

I think the sticking point is the term "jurisdiction." So, jurisdiction doesn't really mean only city owned buildings. I think it's reasonable to say that the cities jurisdiction applies to all areas contained within the city limits. Otherwise, the police would not be allowed to enforce laws within the limits of private property. So to me, I'm back to the same point I was at before. Colorado's constitution doesn't prohibit a city from passing an ordinance, it merely states that if the city is going to pass the law, it must post signs at all public entrances in order to be valid. So that brings me to Parker ordinance 5.02.890. Part of that states that in order for a business to obtain a liquor license it must post a sign. it reads:

"(c) Each licensee shall post and keep at all times visible to the public in a conspicuous place on
the premises, signs to be furnished by the Town Clerk's office, which signs shall be in the following
forms:
(1) "Warning! Parker police must be notified of all disturbances in this establishment and on
the grounds which are part of this establishment."
(2) "Warning! A mandatory fine of nine hundred ninety-nine dollars ($999.00) and imprisonment of up to one (1) year may be levied
on any person convicted of carrying or possessing any dangerous or deadly weapon, including firearms or knives with over three-
and one-half-inch blades, into or onto any public property, any organized public gathering, or any establishment licensed for the sale
of alcoholic or fermented malt beverages."

Now the truth is, that sign is not posted at all public entrances at the Chili's I went to, so that is already not completely compliant with the state. However, there is reason to believe that the city is allowed to make this ordinance and can enforce it because it does not contradict the State Constitution except that the ordinance does not specifically state that a sign must be posted at all public entrances. Which is odd because a different ordinance (5.02.955) is explicit about posting a sign on every public exit but it relates to just taking alcohol off the premises.

I know, I type a lot, sorry. I'm still a little unsure about actual OC in a restaurant in Parker. Because it may be that the ordinance is designed to add a penalty if you have a firearm and are being unruly and that in reality it's not very strictly enforced otherwise.

Perhaps the best approach is to play the dumb guy. If/when I do revisit the place I will OC. If a manager stops me or whatever, I can say "Oh, Sorry, I didn't see the sign at the entrance" and see what happens. All being overly cordial of course.

Perhaps the best approach is to play the dumb guy. If/when I do revisit the place I will OC. If a manager stops me or whatever, I can say "Oh, Sorry, I didn't see the sign at the entrance" and see what happens. All being overly cordial of course.

Howdy Amigo!
First, let me welcome you to the Colorado board of OCDO! We're glad you joined up with this outfit, and glad to see you posting as well.

Now on with the thread!

Perhaps the best option is to not fret so much about it. Whenever I work with a newbie to OC, one of the very first things I tell them is to not fret the small stuff. By the way, it's pretty much all small stuff.
The stuff we fret about usually never happens. Think back across your life about all the stuff you worried about that never happened. If you're honest with yourself, you'll discover that there's a whole lot of those situations where you invested energy fretting about situations that never happened. It's in our nature to worry about stuff, often needlessly. We all fretted about things that never happened when we started out OC'ing. And for darn near everybody except JamesB, none of it every happened.

My advice would be to simply accept state preemption and go about your business without worrying about small stuff.
If there is a sign posted at the entrance prohibiting firearms, heed it. If asked to leave, do so without debate. There are plenty of other establishments that will welcome you without requiring you to agree to be a target for a bad guy.

State preemption, and much has been said on the matter over time, pretty much wipes out municipal control of firearms. They can enact them to their heart's content, but enforcement is rendered impossible under preemption.

Think about it. If they could enforce such an ordinance, they'd eliminate your enjoyment of Chilis, Applebees, and a whole bunch of other places. That would constitute an infringement of your rights. Just don't consume alcohol while you're OC'ing, which is a bad mix on any day. Just as drinking and driving are a real bad idea, so is carrying a handgun while knocking a few back at the bar. Don't do it.

Also please do not refer to signage and plant the idea in the minds of any local merchants that they can simply put up a sign at their entrance to deny you access. We don't really need to advertise that piece of it.

In your last post, you referred to munnicipal code as applying to any building within their city limits. But if you look at the beginning of that sentence, you will see "a local government". The local government has authority only over their buildings; not private property.

What you need to understand is that private property rights frequently trump police authority. Why can't cops write a traffic ticket in a parking lot at the mall? Why? Because it is private property, that's why.

The majority of us here don't much bother with city ordinances because they really aren't relevant with state preemption. For example, Aurora has a muni ordinance that brands the carry of a firearm as "disturbing the peace". Unenforcable as written, thanks to state preemption. I was in the company of two Aurora cops just yesterday (I was the RP anyhow) and neither of them bothered to mention my openly carried sidearm might be contrary to their muni-code. Why? Because it ain't relevant in light of state preemption.

But let's check out the wording of the Colorado Bill of Rights to the Constitution, article 2, section 13!
Right to bear arms. The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question; but nothing herein contained shall be construed to justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons

Muni-codes may call that right into question, but only at risk of a lawsuit they can't win!

Relax, and simply enjoy yourself.
I open carry every single day, everywhere I go, and just don't have any problems at all. From anybody. Not citizens. Not cops.
But I respect your right to fret about it anyway. Just don't be surprised if what you fret about doesn't happen!

Blessings,
M-Taliesin

M-Taliesin said:

Relax, and simply enjoy yourself.
I open carry every single day, everywhere I go, and just don't have any problems at all. From anybody. Not citizens. Not cops.
But I respect your right to fret about it anyway. Just don't be surprised if what you fret about doesn't happen!

Blessings,
M-Taliesin

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Thanks for the write-up. Thanks for being a voice of reason. It might help to understand my psyche for the future. I wouldn't say I'm "fretting" so much as I'm kind of anal about codes and regulations. See, as if being an engineer wasn't bad enough, I'm also a certified USA Hockey, Ice Hockey referee. Both of which require me to be ultra technical about rules and regulations. And also to be able to defend my own interpretations of those rules at any given moment. So it's pretty much just my nature to be OCD about the nitty gritty little details about stuff no one else cares about. LOL. So I'll pour through pages and pages of codes to be sure I completely understand it to the letter so I never have to question it. Hope that helps.

Welcome! I live about 25 minutes east of Parker and open carry there all the time. Hope to meet ya sometime!

Keens

This reminds me of the Thornton foolishness: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?81303-My-opening-post-Took-the-plunge-in-CO

Welcome from Castle Rock.

Been to rocky mountain a couple times, nice guys but I never bought anything.




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