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Komo News - Citizen takes down gunman after shooting in Skyway

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ManInBlack

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Sgt. John Urqhart of the King County Sheriff's Office tells us that the citizen was legally carrying a concealed weapon as well as handcuffs and was in those handcuffs until police arrived.
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I guess a journalism degree isn't what it used to be...
 
amzbrady

amzbrady

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So whats with the handcuff deal, I thought you had to have a license or training or something and could be imprisoned for imprisonment?
 
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M

ManInBlack

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amzbrady said:
So whats with the handcuff deal, I thought you had to have a license or training or something and could be imprisoned for imprisonment?
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I'm not aware of any state laws that regulate the possession or carrying of handcuffs. I also don't believe that the mere possession of handcuffs alone would pass muster for an arrest for impersonation (although I would never combine with any sort of badge - probably wouldn't even carry the handcuffs in plain view to be honest). I'm not even sure that unlawful imprisonment or citizens' arrest statutes would apply given that it began as a genuine self-defense scenario. After all, isn't holding someone at gunpoint until police arrive just as much or more of an arrest or imprisonment?

Personally, the handcuff game isn't for me because as others have said, it is more dangerous to have to reholster your weapon and then attempt physical control. There is a reason that a single cop alone will rarely attempt to handcuff a dangerous suspect - they almost always hold them at draw and wait for backup.
 
BigDave

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ManInBlack said:
I'm not aware of any state laws that regulate the possession or carrying of handcuffs. I also don't believe that the mere possession of handcuffs alone would pass muster for an arrest for impersonation (although I would never combine with any sort of badge - probably wouldn't even carry the handcuffs in plain view to be honest). I'm not even sure that unlawful imprisonment or citizens' arrest statutes would apply given that it began as a genuine self-defense scenario. After all, isn't holding someone at gunpoint until police arrive just as much or more of an arrest or imprisonment?

Personally, the handcuff game isn't for me because as others have said, it is more dangerous to have to reholster your weapon and then attempt physical control. There is a reason that a single cop alone will rarely attempt to handcuff a dangerous suspect - they almost always hold them at draw and wait for backup.
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As to the comment on an arrest or imprisonment, yes as provided for in the following RCW.


RCW 9A.16.020 Use of force — When lawful.

The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:

(1) Whenever necessarily used by a public officer in the performance of a legal duty, or a person assisting the officer and acting under the officer's direction;

(2) Whenever necessarily used by a person arresting one who has committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer competent to receive him or her into custody;

(3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;

(4) Whenever reasonably used by a person to detain someone who enters or remains unlawfully in a building or on real property lawfully in the possession of such person, so long as such detention is reasonable in duration and manner to investigate the reason for the detained person's presence on the premises, and so long as the premises in question did not reasonably appear to be intended to be open to members of the public;

(5) Whenever used by a carrier of passengers or the carrier's authorized agent or servant, or other person assisting them at their request in expelling from a carriage, railway car, vessel, or other vehicle, a passenger who refuses to obey a lawful and reasonable regulation prescribed for the conduct of passengers, if such vehicle has first been stopped and the force used is not more than is necessary to expel the offender with reasonable regard to the offender's personal safety;

(6) Whenever used by any person to prevent a mentally ill, mentally incompetent, or mentally disabled person from committing an act dangerous to any person, or in enforcing necessary restraint for the protection or restoration to health of the person, during such period only as is necessary to obtain legal authority for the restraint or custody of the person.
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hermannr

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What is not stated is how "disabled" the "victim" was by the gun shot wound he received. It is possible that the wounded man handcuffed the shooter with the "citizen"'s handcuffs.

While I do carry zip ties along with the bailing wire and bubble gum for my old Bronco, I also would not want to try just cuff someone on my own, Maybe 40 years ago, but not now. Wonder if King County Sheriff gave the guy back his cuffs?
 
Metalhead47

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sudden valley gunner said:
...because everyone will realize they aren't as needed as they say they are? :eek:
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+1

Really burns me up every time there's a news story about a citizen lawfully fighting back and the response from LE is always "Good on him but you really shouldn't do that..." What a complete crock of bubbly steaming shite. If MORE citizens did what "they don't recommend," took responsibility for their own safety and that of others, maybe crime wouldn't be as rampant as it is.

You're right on this one SVG, they DO want us cowering like little sheeple until the "cavalry" show up. :mad:


PS: who changed the smileys, these suck. :cuss:

I want my headbanger back!
 
1245A Defender

1245A Defender

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Well Ummmm!!!

just had a thought,,, while everybody talks about hand cuffs....

What if you drive up to the ATM, and you see a guy shoot another guy?
sounds like a story I just read about...
so you threaten to shoot the guy that just shot another guy.
sounds like a story i just read about.

maybe it could be that the guy that you just threatened to shoot
because you just drove up to see him shoot another guy,
was a law abiding citizen that just shot a guy
that was assaulting him to steal his money and hurt him or kill...??

the story is still not clear, moving on?

thought i would be thoughtful, thought i would make us all think, thought i would just type cause im up all night...
 
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J

Jeff Hayes

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1245A Defender said:
just had a thought,,, while everybody talks about hand cuffs....

What if you drive up to the ATM, and you see a guy shoot another guy?
sounds like a story I just read about...
so you threaten to shoot the guy that just shot another guy.
sounds like a story i just read about.

maybe it could be that the guy that you just threatened to shoot
because you just drove up to see him shoot another guy,
was a law abiding citizen that just shot a guy
that was assaulting him to steal his money and hurt him or kill...??

the story is still not clear, moving on?

thought i would be thoughtful, thought i would make us all think, thought i would just type cause im up all night...
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Good thought Bob, about a month ago as I was walking up to a drug store I see a guy come out of the store and grab a lady as I started to intervene he flashed a badge at me and told me to stand back. Turns out she was a shop lifter. I came real close to getting into it with the guy if I had been 10 feet closer I would have. lesson learned know what you are getting into, things may not be what they appear to be.
 
jbone

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ManInBlack said:
SNIP... I'm not even sure that unlawful imprisonment or citizens' arrest statutes would apply...
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Are no Statutes. Here's something I had from a past employer.

Citizen Arrest in Washington State

Under Washington law, a private person can conduct a citizen’s arrest for a misdemeanor if the misdemeanor: (1) was committed in the citizen’s presence and (2) constituted a breach of the peace. State v. Gonzales, 24 Wn. App. 437, 439, 604 P.2d 168 (1979); Guijosa v. Wal-Mart Stores, 101 Wn. App. 777, 791, 6 P.3d 583 (2000).

A person can also conduct a citizen’s arrest for felonies. See State v. Malone, 106 Wn.2d 607, 724 P.2d 364 at FN1 (1986) citing State v. Miller, 103 Wn.2d 792, 698 P.2d 554 (1985) and State v. Gonzales, 24 Wn. App. 437, 604 P.2d 168 (1979).

RCW 10.04.020 provides for a citizen’s arrest at the direction of a district court judge, as follows: Arrest -- Offense committed in view of district judge.

When any offense is committed in view of any district judge, the judge may, by verbal direction to any deputy, or if no deputy is present, to any citizen, cause such deputy or citizen to arrest such offender, and keep such offender in custody for the space of one hour, unless such offender shall sooner be taken from such custody by virtue of a warrant issued on complaint on oath. But such person so arrested, shall not be confined in jail, nor put upon any trial, until arrested by virtue of such warrant.

While Washington has no statute concerning citizen’s arrests generally, RCW 9A.04.060 provides that the common law is applicable where not repugnant to the provisions of the state constitution or statutes. Gonzales, 24 Wn. App. at 439; State v. Miller, 103 Wn.2d 792, 795, 698 P.2d 554 (1985).

Application of the common law doctrine of citizen’s arrest is demonstrated in the synopsis of the case below:
Instruction on lawful arrest in prosecution for third degree assault, arising from defendant's resistance to apprehension by store personnel, did not improperly state the law; although language was taken from statute which sets forth defense available to store personnel who have detained a suspected shoplifter, statutory language was consistent with common-law right of citizen arrest which permits detention of a suspected shoplifter on reasonable grounds. State v. Jones (1992) 63 Wash.App. 703, 821 P.2d 543, review denied 118 Wash.2d 1028, 828 P.2d 563. Assault And Battery 96(3); Criminal Law 808.5
 
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amzbrady

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golddigger14s said:
They interviewed the guy on Channel 7, he said the cuffs originally belonged to his father who used to be a cop.
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There is a link. http://www.kirotv.com/news/28792794/detail.html

Orphan said:
Good thought Bob, about a month ago as I was walking up to a drug store I see a guy come out of the store and grab a lady as I started to intervene he flashed a badge at me and told me to stand back. Turns out she was a shop lifter. I came real close to getting into it with the guy if I had been 10 feet closer I would have. lesson learned know what you are getting into, things may not be what they appear to be.
Click to expand...

+1 What if it is you that has to defend yourself and another armed citizen only sees the tail end of an assualt that you just ended, they might get involved. Domino effect.
 
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TechnoWeenie

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amzbrady said:
+1 What if it is you that has to defend yourself and another armed citizen only sees the tail end of an assualt that you just ended, they might get involved. Domino effect.
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The guy can legally shoot you. Sucks...

WPIC instructions state that if a person comes into the situation, and observes what appears to be an agressor (you) that later turns out was the victim (also you), it is still justifiable, as you were using the facts available at the time.

WPIC 16.04.01 Aggressor—Defense of Others

One who acts in defense of another, reasonably believing the other to be the innocent party and in danger, is justified in using force necessary to protect that person even if, in fact, the person whom the actor is defending is the aggressor.
NOTE ON USE

Use this instruction in either a homicide or assault case when there is evidence that the defendant came to the defense of another, even if this other person was actually the initial aggressor. If there is evidence that the defendant was the initial aggressor, use WPIC 16.04, Aggressor—Defense of Self, rather than this instruction.
Use WPIC 16.05, Necessary—Definition, with this instruction.
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Your ass WILL be sued, I can guarantee that.

That's why I suggest people take a class, or practice giving verbal commands.

If you're yelling at someone to get on the ground, stay on the ground, show their hands, etc etc. and in command of the situation, you're less likely to have some yahoo jump out and point his gun at you....

Command presence is VERY important, in any situation.. They actually taught it to the firefighters at our academy. When I was off duty, tending to an accident scene, with no identification or anything, you'd be surprised how willing people were to do what you tell them.. It's all in the attitude/demeanor you have. If you have command presence, you won't be questioned (except this one guy, but he was arrested for interfering).
 
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Dave Workman

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UPDATE on the Skyway incident

Skyway shooting update: Victim has record, citizen fired once, suspect used .22

The 53-year-old victim in Saturday night’s high-profile Skyway shooting incident in which an armed citizen intervened and took down the suspect has a criminal record that includes residential burglary and malicious mischief, but the suspected gunman has no booking record at the King County Jail.

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-...im-a-felon-citizen-fired-once-suspect-used-22
 
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