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Extra Legal Requirement for CHP in Accomack?

skidmark

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....

In the local gun shop today I saw 3 or 4 people comparing CHPs today. They look like drivers licenses and had their picture.....

Anybody that wants to see my picture can go to the local Post Office - it's there on the wall. Least I've been told that most of my government ID pictures look like that's where they came from.

Does anybody remember me speculating that the Clerk has become perfused and complexed between the resident and non-resident CHPs? Well, in case they might not, let me try it a didfferent way -

Would someone in/near Accomack County go down to the courthouse and get a look at these CHPs that have pictures on them, please. (See, I can be socially appropriate if I remember.) Check to see if they are in fact non-resident CHPs or if the Clerk has spent money on a card-making system for which there is no authority.

If it turns out the Clerk is using a maverick card system it might be fun to discuss the matter with the Commonwealth Attorney, regarding where the money for it came from moreso than why it is being used. (I hear constitutional officers are still liable for misuse of public funds. Might be I sort of recall a few that left office/were removed from office because they got caught doing so.)

stay safe.
 

Blk97F150

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Email response from Samuel H. Cooper, Jr, Accomack Clerk of Court

I have not responded yet. My thought is to reply back and point out the section in the Code of Virginia that prohibits additional information not specifically authorized.

I'm open to suggestions.....

-----------------------------------------
From : SHCooper@courts.state.va.us
To : blk97f150
Subject : Re: Accomack County Concealed Handgun Permit
Date : Mon, Jul 08, 2013 02:21 PM

I assume that you have an issue with having photos on handgun permits. This service is provided in response customers requests for a more durable card. The photo serves as an additional form of ID. My response to your question concerning statutory authorization for the photo would ask if there is any statutory prohibition.

Samuel H. Cooper, Jr.
 

HearseGuy

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Email response from Samuel H. Cooper, Jr, Accomack Clerk of Court

I have not responded yet. My thought is to reply back and point out the section in the Code of Virginia that prohibits additional information not specifically authorized.

I'm open to suggestions.....

-----------------------------------------
From : SHCooper@courts.state.va.us
To : blk97f150
Subject : Re: Accomack County Concealed Handgun Permit
Date : Mon, Jul 08, 2013 02:21 PM

I assume that you have an issue with having photos on handgun permits. This service is provided in response customers requests for a more durable card. The photo serves as an additional form of ID. My response to your question concerning statutory authorization for the photo would ask if there is any statutory prohibition.

Samuel H. Cooper, Jr.

I talked to a buddy of mine today. He has the "new durable card" with his mugshot. He said that he requested it. And I want to say he had the option of picture or no picture.
 
Last edited:

Blk97F150

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I talked to a buddy of mine today. He has the "new durable card" with his mugshot. He said that he requested it. And I want to say he had the option of picture or no picture.

As I understand the Code.... the clerk is prohibited from even requesting additional information... regardless of whether the applicant agrees or not. :uhoh:

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.02

The application shall be made under oath before a notary or other person qualified to take oaths and shall be made only on a form prescribed by the Department of State Police, in consultation with the Supreme Court, requiring only that information necessary to determine eligibility for the permit. No information or documentation other than that which is allowed on the application in accordance with this section may be requested or required by the clerk or the court.
 

JamesCanby

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I talked to a buddy of mine today. He has the "new durable card" with his mugshot. He said that he requested it. And I want to say he had the option of picture or no picture.

So, the question then becomes: Does the photo ID CHP qualify as an ID, and one need not present one's Driver's License along with the CHP? And, if so, will other jurisdictions (counties/cities) in the Commonwealth recognize it as sufficient ID?
 

Sesrun

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Email response from Samuel H. Cooper, Jr, Accomack Clerk of Court

I have not responded yet. My thought is to reply back and point out the section in the Code of Virginia that prohibits additional information not specifically authorized.

I'm open to suggestions.....

-----------------------------------------
From : SHCooper@courts.state.va.us
To : blk97f150
Subject : Re: Accomack County Concealed Handgun Permit
Date : Mon, Jul 08, 2013 02:21 PM

I assume that you have an issue with having photos on handgun permits. This service is provided in response customers requests for a more durable card. The photo serves as an additional form of ID. My response to your question concerning statutory authorization for the photo would ask if there is any statutory prohibition.

Samuel H. Cooper, Jr.

The code also describes exactly what the permit is supposed to look like:
[URL="http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.04" said:
§ 18.2-308.04(E)[/URL]]
"The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall specify only the following information: name, address, date of birth, gender, height, weight, color of hair, color of eyes, and signature of the permittee; the signature of the judge issuing the permit, of the clerk of court who has been authorized to sign such permits by the issuing judge, or of the clerk of court who has been authorized to issue such permits pursuant to subsection D; the date of issuance; and the expiration date. The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall be no larger than two inches wide by three and one-fourth inches long and shall be of a uniform style prescribed by the Department of State Police."

The wording states that the permit "shall specify only" those things listed above. It may not specify a photograph, nor does it seem that this county's permit abide by being "of a uniform style prescribed by the Department of State Police."
 

Wolf_shadow

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The code also describes exactly what the permit is supposed to look like:


The wording states that the permit "shall specify only" those things listed above. It may not specify a photograph, nor does it seem that this county's permit abide by being "of a uniform style prescribed by the Department of State Police."

I have not received an reply to the email I sent where I pointed out the description of what the CHP should contain in § 18.2-308.04, and that their requirement to appear in person is in violation of the code that states application by mail is legal. (post 18). We shall see how he answers that.

John
 
Last edited:

Blk97F150

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The code also describes exactly what the permit is supposed to look like:


The wording states that the permit "shall specify only" those things listed above. It may not specify a photograph, nor does it seem that this county's permit abide by being "of a uniform style prescribed by the Department of State Police."

Very nice. Thanks, I'll include that in my reply!
 

Blk97F150

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I have not received an reply to the email I sent where I pointed out the description of what the CHP should contain in § 18.2-308.04, and that their requirement to appear in person is in violation of the code that states application by mail is legal. (post 18). We shall see how he answers that.

John

Its interesting that he replied to me.... yet hasn't' replied to you yet.
 

skidmark

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So I guess the answer to Mr. Cooper's question "My response to your question concerning statutory authorization for the photo would ask if there is any statutory prohibition" would be a resounding YES, there is a statutory prohibition and you are violating it.

Since there are no teeth in the law describing what the CHP is only allowed to contain, I trot out once more my suggestion that Mr. Cooper be required to account for the expenditure of funds for an activity clearly not authorized by statute and in fact prohibited by statute. Expending funds not otherwise authorized meets the definition of fraud, which is a felony.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+24.2-231

§ 24.2-231. Forfeiture of office by person sentenced for commission of certain crimes.

Any person holding any public office of honor, profit, or trust in this Commonwealth who is convicted of a felony or any offense for which registration is required as defined in § 9.1-902 and for whom all rights of appeal under Virginia law have expired, shall by such final conviction forfeit his office or post and thereafter may not act therein under his previous election or appointment. A pardon which may be afterwards granted him shall not void the forfeiture.

Mr. Cooper may want to consider that.

stay safe.
 

Wolf_shadow

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Accomac, Virginia, USA
I have not received an reply to the email I sent where I pointed out the description of what the CHP should contain in § 18.2-308.04, and that their requirement to appear in person is in violation of the code that states application by mail is legal. (post 18). We shall see how he answers that.

John

Its interesting that he replied to me.... yet hasn't' replied to you yet.

Probably because I cited the code and he either is trying to figure how he can get around it, or hopping I'll go away, and forget about it. Although he knows me better than that.
:banghead:
 

Grapeshot

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So, the question then becomes: Does the photo ID CHP qualify as an ID, and one need not present one's Driver's License along with the CHP? And, if so, will other jurisdictions (counties/cities) in the Commonwealth recognize it as sufficient ID?
NO! - a CHP must be presented when legally demand together with a valid government-issued photo identification.

Also the form/format of the CHP is not one with options. It is developed and approved by the VSP together with advise from the Virginia Supreme Court.
 

JamesCanby

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NO! - a CHP must be presented when legally demand together with a valid government-issued photo identification.

Also the form/format of the CHP is not one with options. It is developed and approved by the VSP together with advise from the Virginia Supreme Court.

I agree with you, Grape ... but I'm searching for some rationale as to why this county believes it has a 'better' process...
 

Grapeshot

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I agree with you, Grape ... but I'm searching for some rationale as to why this county believes it has a 'better' process...
There is no accounting for rogue bureaucrats - how dare we challenge their authority. Point is of course, their "better" idea is extra-legal which is just a slightly nicer way of saying ILLEGAL!
 

Blk97F150

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My response to Mr Cooper. I copied Philip on this as well. Thanks to everyone for the input.


From : "blk97f150"
To : SHCooper@courts.state.va.us
Cc : president@vcdl.org
Subject : Re: Accomack County Concealed Handgun Permit
Date : Mon, Jul 08, 2013 10:19 PM

Samuel H. Cooper, Jr., Clerk of Circuit Court, Accomack County

Dear Sir, thank you for your timely response to my previous correspondence, although I'm honestly a bit surprised that you would ask me about the laws relating to CHP permits.

Regardless though, yes... there is a "statutory prohibition" to the actions mention in my initial email (below). In fact, there are several. Please reference the sections of the Code of Virginia noted below:

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.02
18.2-308.02 (A)
The application shall be made under oath before a notary or other person qualified to take oaths and shall be made only on a form prescribed by the Department of State Police, in consultation with the Supreme Court, requiring only that information necessary to determine eligibility for the permit. No information or documentation other than that which is allowed on the application in accordance with this section may be requested or required by the clerk or the court.


In reading Section 18.2-308.02 (A) above, it is clear that you may not request or require any information that is not "necessary to determine eligibility for the permit". In addition, you may not request or require "information or documentation other than that which is allowed on the application in accordance with this section". That would include a photograph or picture of the applicant.

And:

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.04
18.2-308.04 (E)
The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall specify only the following information: name, address, date of birth, gender, height, weight, color of hair, color of eyes, and signature of the permittee; the signature of the judge issuing the permit, of the clerk of court who has been authorized to sign such permits by the issuing judge, or of the clerk of court who has been authorized to issue such permits pursuant to subsection D; the date of issuance; and the expiration date. The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall be no larger than two inches wide by three and one-fourth inches long and shall be of a uniform style prescribed by the Department of State Police.


This section clearly indicates what information the "permit to carry a concealed handgun shall specify". Please note, that a 'picture or photograph of the permit holder' is not authorized by the code section. Also please note that the Department of State Police is to 'prescribe the uniform style' for the Concealed Handgun Permit.

I request that you correct the misinformation on your website (linked below), and please bring your office into compliance with the Code of Virginia as mentioned above. Please notify me when this matter has been corrected.

Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter.

Mike Xxxxxxx
 

Grapeshot

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My response to Mr Cooper. I copied Philip on this as well. Thanks to everyone for the input.


From : "blk97f150"
To : SHCooper@courts.state.va.us
Cc : president@vcdl.org
Subject : Re: Accomack County Concealed Handgun Permit
Date : Mon, Jul 08, 2013 10:19 PM

Samuel H. Cooper, Jr., Clerk of Circuit Court, Accomack County

Dear Sir, thank you for your timely response to my previous correspondence, although I'm honestly a bit surprised that you would ask me about the laws relating to CHP permits.

Regardless though, yes... there is a "statutory prohibition" to the actions mentioned in my initial email (below). In fact, there are several. Please reference the sections of the Code of Virginia noted below:

--sipped--

I request that you correct the misinformation on your website (linked below), and please bring your office into compliance with the Code of Virginia as mentioned above. Please notify me when this matter has been corrected.

Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter.

Mike Xxxxxxx

Nicely done -appreciate it. Will look forward to his reply indicating he has taken corrective action.
 

skidmark

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Bravo!

Freaking big bear trap in the middle of the road nicely pointed out to Mr. Cooper, along with several suggestions as to how he might avoid stepping in the middle of it.

I've started my tub of popcorn (margirine, no salt) and have my feet propped up waiting for the next move. If it were not illegal to do so, I might offer anyone the chance to receive $10 from me if he actually fixes things, as opposed to giving me $5 if he does not.

stay safe.
 

Wolf_shadow

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Received this reply via email today;

[FONT=Default Sans Serif,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]We are in the process of updating our website to address this issue. I apologize for any misrepresentation by myself or staff with respect to individuals having to personally appear to renew their applications or submit a photo. If an individual wishes to purchase the plastic card, which includes their photo, they must appear to have said photo taken. Let me be clear that the purchase of the alterntive card is optional. This service has been provided because over the years, so many residents have inquired about a more durable card and it also serves as an additional form of identification. There is no statutory provision that prohibits such service and the additional cost is not a part of the statutory fee. If you have additional questions or concerns, I would ask that you call me or come into the office for further discussion.


Samuel H. Cooper, Jr.


So basically they still think they can do it but make it optional, and charge extra to get it. I don't see where in the code they can have an optional CHP. Guess I'll have to ask. Also What about the people who paid extra for the plastic thinking it was mandatory.
[/FONT]
 

Blk97F150

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He has not responded to my email... pointing out that there IS a "statutory provision that prohibits such a service". I'll give him another day or so, and email him back requesting an update.

I also wonder, if the CHP 'photo permits' are actually valid? As I pointed out to him in my previous email, its clear that they are not of a 'uniform style prescribed by the State Police'.... so are they even valid? :eek:
 

Grapeshot

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Received this reply via email today;

We are in the process of updating our website to address this issue. I apologize for any misrepresentation by myself or staff with respect to individuals having to personally appear to renew their applications or submit a photo. If an individual wishes to purchase the plastic card, which includes their photo, they must appear to have said photo taken. Let me be clear that the purchase of the alterntive card is optional. This service has been provided because over the years, so many residents have inquired about a more durable card and it also serves as an additional form of identification. There is no statutory provision that prohibits such service and the additional cost is not a part of the statutory fee. If you have additional questions or concerns, I would ask that you call me or come into the office for further discussion.

Samuel H. Cooper, Jr
.


So basically they still think they can do it but make it optional, and charge extra to get it. I don't see where in the code they can have an optional CHP. Guess I'll have to ask. Also What about the people who paid extra for the plastic thinking it was mandatory.
[/SIZE][/FONT]

Yes there are a statutory provisions prohibiting this!

§ 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies. A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by § 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of this section, a statute that does not refer to firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to provide express authorization.

§ 18.2-308.04. Processing of the application and issuance of a concealed handgun permit.

E. The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall specify only the following information: name, address, date of birth, gender, height, weight, color of hair, color of eyes, and signature of the permittee; the signature of the judge issuing the permit, of the clerk of court who has been authorized to sign such permits by the issuing judge, or of the clerk of court who has been authorized to issue such permits pursuant to subsection D; the date of issuance; and the expiration date. The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall be no larger than two inches wide by three and one-fourth inches long and shall be of a uniform style prescribed by the Department of State Police.


Also Virginia is a "Dillon Rule" state:

"It is a general and undisputed proposition of law that a municipal corporation possesses and can exercise the following powers and no others: First, those granted in express words; second, those necessarily or fairly implied in or incident to the powers expressly granted; third, those essential to the declared objects and purposes of the corporation, not simply convenient, but indispensable. Any fair, reasonable doubt concerning the existence of the power is resolved by the courts against the corporation, and the power is denied."
http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/government/about/dillon-rule.htm

At this point, I would contact the Secretary of the Virginia Supreme Court and make a formal complaint. This clerk seems to think that he can insurp the authority of the General Assembly - there is no optional permit format.
 
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