I was just asked to leave by a manager at Walmart.

GreenCountyPete said:

i know you have the right to OC but CC is so much easier , no looks, no stares , no confrontations

we should be able to open or conceal any were , but after 2 months of concealed , i have to say it is much easier to not make waves ,no one has any clue your standing there with your gun on you , you just get to smile as some one tells you how worried they are about it all , all those PEOPLE! carrying guns every were.

i hate to see posted places , i would hate to see any place become posted because of a confrontation with a OC'er if they ask, leave , disarm , then politely get the info and make phone calls , make sure to be a good representative of the OC\CC community even if you have to bite your tongue some.

by the way the phone number is on the store receipt for walmart and the managers name

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It's so much easier to sit in the back of the bus and not make waves.....

Originally Posted by davidmcbeth The manager has the right to ask you to not have a gun in his store. Why do people get up in arms about such instances?

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HandyHamlet said:

Can you cite where it says that in the Constitution please?

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Oh, please. It also doesn't explicitly say that a manager can ask a person to not enter the store without shoes and a shirt, but he still has the legal right to do so (the authority within the corporate structure is another matter entirely).

Thankfully, we don't possess only those rights enumerated in the Constitution.

Ninth Amendment:
The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

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In the same way that private property owners, and their agents, can restrict the First Amendment, they can also restrict the Second, and they can also bar a person from their PRIVATE premises for any reason of their choosing, no matter how ridiculous. And you know what? I have zero problem with that, because I expect and exercise the same amount of control over my private holdings.

Claiming to support liberty, but expecting private property owners/agents to be forced to permit behavior they disapprove of on their own premises reeks of hypocrisy.

xd shooter said:

It's so much easier to sit in the back of the bus and not make waves.....

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true and very appropriate for MLK day

but I am not being asked to leave the store, i am not looking to create another place to stay away from (a posted one) i have my right to carry and i exercise it every day.

i was advocating that if you want to OC , deal with any store managers in a polite way. we need to make converts for oc/cc not posted stores

OC is what got us CC there is no doubt.

the civil rights battle was helped by those who maintained their cool under very bad treatment and kept it peaceful. it was hurt by anyone who could not control their anger.


OC/CC is a some what different issue than , 1960's civil rights movement , they had nothing and were fighting for every thing , we have a new license that allows us to carry almost any where , any were that doesn't get posted.

some people enjoy the ignorance , if being able to think that if they don't see a gun there is no gun they like to live in their little world were you would never have need for a gun where bad things only happen to other people on the news.
sometimes it is just easier to let them wallow in their ignorance than to drag them into the reality of it.

if we prove CC is a non issue we can make the move later to go constitutional carry

ManInBlack said:

Oh, please. It also doesn't explicitly say that a manager can ask a person to not enter the store without shoes and a shirt, but he still has the legal right to do so (the authority within the corporate structure is another matter entirely).

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Google sarcasm.


Also, as I have asked before... Does an employee have authority to exercise their personal agenda against a customer, if their agenda goes completely against corporate policy?

+1000

ChinChin said:

Most business owners expect the managers they employ to follow and promote the policies which they (the owners) have implemented. In this particular instance, the manager was attempting to enforce a store policy which not only did not exist, but ran counter to the established policies by the store owners (read: the executive corporate leadership.)

The OP did exactly as he should have done. Left when prompted to, file a complaint and seek resolution by escalating the matter to the next level of management above the employee requesting that he left.

The manager of a business should know what the policies exist in the store he manages. It is obvious this particular manager did not, and should have sought clarification when the opportunity presented itself. It sounds as if he was made to be aware of his error and (hopefully) does not repeat.

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Plus macbeth has never visited milwaukee or madison lol quite the rude awakening if he did ... just saying maybe he should come to madistan lol

davidmcbeth said:

The manager has the right to ask you to not have a gun in his store.
Why do people get up in arms about such instances?

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Because it's not his store, & we know he's going against corporate policy.
He can't enforce his opinion on company time & use the company name to do it.
Or at least, he can't do it more than once.

GreenCountyPete said:

i know you have the right to OC but CC is so much easier, no looks, no stares, no confrontations...
it is much easier to not make waves

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I think OC is pretty darn easy. Here are 4 videos I made while OC around my home area.
The bank is the longest; the others are 0.5 - 1.5 minutes.
This is pretty much what usually happens. Explain please where the confrontations are?
Yes, there are a couple of glances, & even a couple of smiles. So?
No, I didn't edit out anything negative, nor did anything negative happen before or after these videos.
These were made with my hidden camera, so they didn't know they were being recorded, so didn't act different.

21OCT10 at my bank
16NOV10 at a home-improvement store
30DEC10 at the grocery
30DEC10 at a home-improvement store (different location)

Sorcice said:

Dan is the man . Just got off the line and before I even finished the story he interjected and said he was informed by the night manager this morning about the incident and that it is corp policy to allow us and we should not have an issue any more.

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Well done Sorcice! Another win due to you keeping your cool and handling it well.

Way to go!

MKEgal said:

Because it's not his store, & we know he's going against corporate policy.
He can't enforce his opinion on company time & use the company name to do it.
Or at least, he can't do it more than once.


I think OC is pretty darn easy. Here are 4 videos I made while OC around my home area.
The bank is the longest; the others are 0.5 - 1.5 minutes.
This is pretty much what usually happens. Explain please where the confrontations are?
Yes, there are a couple of glances, & even a couple of smiles. So?
No, I didn't edit out anything negative, nor did anything negative happen before or after these videos.
These were made with my hidden camera, so they didn't know they were being recorded, so didn't act different.

21OCT10 at my bank
16NOV10 at a home-improvement store
30DEC10 at the grocery
30DEC10 at a home-improvement store (different location)

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tagged for work where my sound works. Looking forward to seeing the confrontations, expellations, you being disarmed and lastly, you getting killed first by criminals since you're OCing.





Did I miss any of the typical anti-OC arguments?

ManInBlack said:

Oh, please. It also doesn't explicitly say that a manager can ask a person to not enter the store without shoes and a shirt, but he still has the legal right to do so (the authority within the corporate structure is another matter entirely).

Thankfully, we don't possess only those rights enumerated in the Constitution.



In the same way that private property owners, and their agents, can restrict the First Amendment, they can also restrict the Second, and they can also bar a person from their PRIVATE premises for any reason of their choosing, no matter how ridiculous. And you know what? I have zero problem with that, because I expect and exercise the same amount of control over my private holdings.

Claiming to support liberty, but expecting private property owners/agents to be forced to permit behavior they disapprove of on their own premises reeks of hypocrisy.

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There is a big difference between your personal property rights and those of a person or entity which openly requests the public to enter their property. Going on to your personal private property I would expect to give up some personal liberty to accomodate your personal views. HOWEVER when a business such as wal-mart opens it's arms to the public and requests that the public come onto it's property to partake in a public service such as commerce they give up much of that ability to limit who can and cannot come to their property. There is legal case history on this that I have come across. There is a certain expectation of the public that when they enter the premises of a store that many or all of their civil rights remain in tact and that they will not be descriminated against. Walmart would never get away with kicking out a clergy man for simply wearing the cloth, and kicking someone out for simply wearing a firearm is NO DIFFERENT. One right does not take precedence over another.

kawisixer01 said:

There is a big difference between your personal property rights and those of a person or entity which openly requests the public to enter their property. Going on to your personal private property I would expect to give up some personal liberty to accomodate your personal views. HOWEVER when a business such as wal-mart opens it's arms to the public and requests that the public come onto it's property to partake in a public service such as commerce they give up much of that ability to limit who can and cannot come to their property.

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This was never the case until the so-called Civil Rights Act. Even then, only certain, specially-favored, named classes are protected. Which is exactly the problem with trying to force private property to do things they don't want to do: someone (usually a government figure) gets to decide exactly what classes of people or behavior is worthy of violating another person's private property rights.

There is legal case history on this that I have come across.

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I would love to see it.

There is a certain expectation of the public that when they enter the premises of a store that many or all of their civil rights remain in tact and that they will not be descriminated against. Walmart would never get away with kicking out a clergy man for simply wearing the cloth, and kicking someone out for simply wearing a firearm is NO DIFFERENT. One right does not take precedence over another.

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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/04/police-officer-asked-leave-portland-coffee-shop/

Not quite the same thing, but pretty close. A private business owner has the absolute right, both legally and morally, to refuse service to anyone at anytime for any reason. Legally, of course, this does not apply if the person being asked to leave is a member of a specially-favored, protected class.

davidmcbeth said:

The manager has the right to ask you to not have a gun in his store. Why do people get up in arms about such instances?

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A Wal-mart manager must follow corp. policy, not there own personal agenda. The manager does not have the right to violate corp. policy and prohibit the lawful carry of a firearm.




And this night manager lied, as there as never been a sign at any Wal-mart in Wisconsin.

Thanks for the "thumbs up" everyone. Hopefully this doesn't happen again in the next few months with another manager/associate.

davidmcbeth said:

The manager has the right to ask you to not have a gun in his store. Why do people get up in arms about such instances?

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According to the OP, the boss of the night manager, did not agree with your view, or the night manager's view. If a customer feels he is not being treated fairly or resonably or according to company policy, he should communicate that problem up the chain of command. Often higher level personnel are not aware of actions taken by their staff.

In the view of LEO that night manager had the legal authority to prohibit carrying in the store. In the view of his boss, the night manager was NOT authorized by the company to take that action. I expect that night manager won't do it again!

gutshot said:

And that only happened when those people stood up and demanded that they be allowed their constitutional rights.

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The parts of the act that abolished Jim crow laws were great. In fact, most of the titles are ok, but title 2 and title 7 of the "civil rights" act actually take away rights. They take away private property rights and give special privileges to protected classes. There is no constitutional right to another's property nor is there any natural right to the same.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk

BROKENSPROKET said:

A Wal-mart manager must follow corp. policy, not there own personal agenda. The manager does not have the right to violate corp. policy and prohibit the lawful carry of a firearm.




And this night manager lied, as there as never been a sign at any Wal-mart in Wisconsin.

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It's a little astonishing that this happened. Wal-Mart, in particular, has fairly draconian rules and compliance is enforced with a big stick. A manager doing this crap (and getting caught lying) is going to get fired right quick.

The anti-whatever dingleberry assistant manager works in the locally owned doily and bucket shop can do that. Wal-Mart would just as soon fire them as solve the problem with them. There are LOTS of folks ready to take the job as Wal-mart is big and has locations all over. Doily and bucket specialists are hard to come by.

Brass Magnet said:

Me too. BTW, thieltech; is that a BLUE bridgeport in your avatar?

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LOL yes it is ! i actually just got done restoring it ! i have lots of pictures over @ weldingweb.com of the whole restoration and all the upgrades .

thieltech said:

LOL yes it is ! i actually just got done restoring it ! i have lots of pictures over @ weldingweb.com of the whole restoration and all the upgrades .

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Cool! But have fun cleaning it. Do they make a grease/cast iron chips colored paint? That's what I'd use. I'm actually casually looking for a Series 1 with a DRO and a decent floor lathe with all the threading gears. Don't have any money to spend ATM, but always got my eye out.

davidmcbeth said:

The manager has the right to ask you to not have a gun in his store. Why do people get up in arms about such instances?

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The manager also has the right to ask you to take off your shirt and wear it backwards, or the right to ask your teenage daughter to flash her tata's. That does Not mean he has the authority to make either one happen.
One should not confuse rights with authorities.

Everybody

belongs to two or more protected classes. These classes exist because the people of the nation, through their elected representatives, decided that ensuring equal and fair treatment is important enough to require others to give up *some* property rights. The question is not whether or not a person belongs to a protected class but rather is there discrimination based upon a protected class feature. Some states and localities have additional protected class (beyond those in federal law). Carry status is not a protected class. Theoretically, a business could refuse service to anybody who wasn't open carrying. However the concepts of pretext and disparate impact as well as financial impact make that unlikely.

Whatever the corporate policy, the manager on site has the legal authority to control the property, subject only to contrary law. If you refuse to leave or make a fuss, you likely will be arrested. Even if "Dan the Man" or the ghost of Sam Walton shows up in court to defend you, that would only address a trespass charge. You could still be hit with resisting, disorderly conduct or other things that Wal*Mart has no control over.

A better solution is to talk to the top local manager in advance and seek his committment to let other managers know the policy and that he expects compliance. Several years ago when I helped coach H.S. football, we would run a tackle-eligible play. We always informed the officials in advance so that the referee would review the rules and make sure everybody recognized it when it took place. Much easier than arguing after the fact that the tackle was indeed eligible. No video review - the original decision always stood. In both cases it's called "greasing the skids."

HandyHamlet said:

Google sarcasm.


Also, as I have asked before... Does an employee have authority to exercise their personal agenda against a customer, if their agenda goes completely against corporate policy?

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I believe so. It's like resisting an unlawful arrest by law enforcement. Even though there is no reason for arrest, resisting could get you charged with resisting, even if the cop gets reprimanded,.....and that charge could (and has in cases) stick.
An employee telling you to leave, which may go against company policy, could get you cited for trespassing if you refuse. That employee may get fired for going against company policy, but the trespass charge against you could still be valid.