CC without a CPL?

Samopal · Mar 29, 2013

Hey everyone. After a brief stint in NY I'm back in Michigan, and my awesome brother promptly gave me a shotgun (Mossberg 500) and handgun (Ruger LCP) as welcome-home gifts.

My question is: can I CC on private property that isn't my own without a CPL? I tried looking it up but got conflicting opinions. Some people say the laws regarding private property and possession extend to CC, others say you can only CC without a CPL on your own property and place of business as they're the only places explicitly exempted in the law's text.

For example, I'm at my neighbour's house dogsitting until about 2am today. If I had my LCP could I slip my shirt over it, or would I be committing a crime? It seems silly to me that I need a CPL to conceal a pistol on someone else's private property with their permission.

Raggs · Mar 29, 2013

Samopal said:
Hey everyone. After a brief stint in NY I'm back in Michigan, and my awesome brother promptly gave me a shotgun (Mossberg 500) and handgun (Ruger LCP) as welcome-home gifts.

My question is: can I CC on private property that isn't my own without a CPL? I tried looking it up but got conflicting opinions. Some people say the laws regarding private property and possession extend to CC, others say you can only CC without a CPL on your own property and place of business as they're the only places explicitly exempted in the law's text.

For example, I'm at my neighbour's house dogsitting until about 2am today. If I had my LCP could I slip my shirt over it, or would I be committing a crime? It seems silly to me that I need a CPL to conceal a pistol on someone else's private property with their permission.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(bg...eg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-750-227

(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

Samopal · Mar 29, 2013

Raggs said:
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(bg...eg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-750-227

(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

How does it make sense that I can CC at my house but not my neighbour's? They're both private property.

Are you sure the rules regarding private property don't override the CC laws like they do with firearm possession?

Raggs · Mar 29, 2013

Samopal said:
How does it make sense that I can CC at my house but not my neighbour's? They're both private property.

Are you sure the rules regarding private property don't override the CC laws like they do with firearm possession?

I am not a lawyer but I have found that laws often do not make sense.

Bikenut · Mar 29, 2013

..........

Samopal · Mar 29, 2013

Raggs said:
I am not a lawyer but I have found that laws often do not make sense.

Ain't that the truth...

Oh well, thanks for everyone's help. I emailed the MSP just to be sure but that seems to be the law. I'll be careful not to let my shirt pull up over my gun while I'm lounging around my friend's house; wouldn't want to hurt the state's feelings.

Haman J.T. · Mar 29, 2013

Samopal said:
Ain't that the truth...

Oh well, thanks for everyone's help. I emailed the MSP just to be sure but that seems to be the law. I'll be careful not to let my shirt pull up over my gun while I'm lounging around my friend's house; wouldn't want to hurt the state's feelings.

OC is the way to go without CPL.Stupid laws are why we fight to repeal! CARRY ON!

TheQ · Mar 30, 2013

Samopal said:
Ain't that the truth...

Oh well, thanks for everyone's help. I emailed the MSP just to be sure but that seems to be the law. I'll be careful not to let my shirt pull up over my gun while I'm lounging around my friend's house; wouldn't want to hurt the state's feelings.

Emailing cops to get answers about the laws is often a bad idea… The advice you get is often wrong.

Samopal · Mar 30, 2013

TheQ said:
Emailing cops to get answers about the laws is often a bad idea… The advice you get is often wrong.

Actually I've emailed the MSP about several things and they're always helpful and spot on. When I asked about the state's knife laws the officer who wrote back to just get a CPL if I wanted a defensive weapon because the gun laws are consistent across the state, while knife laws vary city to city.

Remember, the MSP are the people who go out of their way sending memos and reminding local police of the OC laws and other gun laws. AFAIK they've done nothing but help us by keeping local LEOs in line.

TheQ · Mar 30, 2013

Samopal said:
Actually I've emailed the MSP about several things and they're always helpful and spot on. When I asked about the state's knife laws the officer who wrote back to just get a CPL if I wanted a defensive weapon because the gun laws are consistent across the state, while knife laws vary city to city.

Remember, the MSP are the people who go out of their way sending memos and reminding local police of the OC laws and other gun laws. AFAIK they've done nothing but help us by keeping local LEOs in line.

It depends who at the MSP you're asking. Sgt. Aimee -- sure. Anyone else...I can't vouch for.

Samopal · Mar 30, 2013

TheQ said:
It depends who at the MSP you're asking. Sgt. Aimee -- sure. Anyone else...I can't vouch for.

That's who always responds to me.

Bronson · Mar 31, 2013

Samopal said:
they're always helpful and spot on.

The problem is: what if they're wrong? What if you ask them a question and they completely botch the answer? Who gets arrested, prosecuted, and punished? You do, and you can't go back on them for giving you bad information.

Bronson

Samopal · Mar 31, 2013

Bronson said:
The problem is: what if they're wrong? What if you ask them a question and they completely botch the answer? Who gets arrested, prosecuted, and punished? You do, and you can't go back on them for giving you bad information.

Bronson

Every answer is backed up with quotes of the relevant law and the MSP's interpretation of that law. I'd say the email that's a decent defense should something go wrong. After all, if the MSP can't get the interpretation right who can? Do you think a judge is going to punish you for breaking a law so convoluted and confusing even the state police don't understand it?

Shadow Bear · Mar 31, 2013

Samopal said:
Every answer is backed up with quotes of the relevant law and the MSP's interpretation of that law. I'd say the email that's a decent defense should something go wrong. After all, if the MSP can't get the interpretation right who can? Do you think a judge is going to punish you for breaking a law so convoluted and confusing even the state police don't understand it?

Absolutely; prison is full of simply misguided children. Seriously, though, no LEO is going to go to bat for you if his advice is not perfect.

Sgt. Aimee is generally a reliable source of information, however, there is no liability on her end if a judge has a different interpretation of the law as written.

We've seen actual, sitting judges say that the plain wording of a certain law is ludicrous or ridiculous, or words to that effect (CADL v MOC). Other, more experience judges disagreed, and reversed her ruling, but these things cost money; lots of money.

Nothing beats your own research, and your comfort & confidence in the legality of your actions. There are no 'get out of jail - free' cards in this game....

TheQ · Apr 1, 2013

Samopal said:
Every answer is backed up with quotes of the relevant law and the MSP's interpretation of that law. I'd say the email that's a decent defense should something go wrong. After all, if the MSP can't get the interpretation right who can? Do you think a judge is going to punish you for breaking a law so convoluted and confusing even the state police don't understand it?

Read MSP legal update 86. Then research People v Roger Watkins in Ingham County.

Answer: yes

I think the plain letter of the law is clear in your case.

FreeInAZ · Apr 1, 2013

@OP you've been on this forum since 2008. One thing you should know is: the law is often bent & twisted by those who took a oath to uphold it. The Q was nicely trying to point you to a case where a Judge simply said screw what the law actually says - this is how I see it! It happens more than we would like to know about.

Get your CPL if possible. Until then know & OBEY the law. Is it really worth getting jammed up? This forum is heavily monitored by LE, I am sure there are one or two hard cases that would love to put the screws to you. Don't give them the chance.

Be safe and carry on openly...

Raggs · Apr 1, 2013

FreeInAZ said:
@OP you've been on this forum since 2008. One thing you should know is: the law is often bent & twisted by those who took a oath to uphold it. The Q was nicely trying to point you to a case where a Judge simply said screw what the law actually says - this is how I see it! It happens more than we would like to know about.

Get your CPL if possible. Until then know & OBEY the law. Is it really worth getting jammed up? This forum is heavily monitored by LE, I am sure there are one or two hard cases that would love to put the screws to you. Don't give them the chance. Be safe and carry on openly...

+1

Evil Creamsicle · Apr 1, 2013

Samopal said:
How does it make sense that I can CC at my house but not my neighbour's? They're both private property.

Are you sure the rules regarding private property don't override the CC laws like they do with firearm possession?

Its all semantics though... If you are staying at your neighbor's house, housesitting, would that house not then be, however temporarily, your 'dwelling house'?

[NOTE: I didn't say 'it is', I said 'is it?']

MikeTheGreek · Apr 2, 2013

Samopal said:
my awesome brother promptly gave me a shotgun (Mossberg 500) and handgun (Ruger LCP) as welcome-home gifts.

10 Points for me giving away 2/3 of my guns.

Just man up and open carry with me!

CC without a CPL?

Samopal

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Raggs

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Samopal

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Bikenut

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Samopal

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Haman J.T.

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TheQ

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Samopal

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