Shooting in Sterling

The intruder was shot after he continued to advance after ignoring verbal commands and a warning shot (whatever that is)

ed said:

... a warning shot (whatever that is)

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Some folks call it a miss. Others call it a waste of ammo you might need later on.

But mostly it is, IMHO, an indication that you did not need to use deadly force right then and there.

stay safe.

skidmark said:

Some folks call it a miss. Others call it a waste of ammo you might need later on.

But mostly it is, IMHO, an indication that you did not need to use deadly force right then and there.

stay safe.

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Pretty much!

A 16 year old kid who was too falling down drunk to know he was in the wrong house and was on the steps, was unarmed....and presented enough of a threat to require killing him.

TFred said:

Am I being too harsh?

TFred

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No, I agree 100%

OK, so some of you think he should not have shot. Please tell us, in your opinions, just where is the line where you do shoot a home invader, halfway upstairs to you (and your family's) last retreat position, at 2 in the morning (and in the dark, or course), and you see this presumed "tall" (he was a HS varsity basketball player) "man" profile there, and you are half asleep yourself, not believing what you are seeing. After all, this doesn't happen every day, OR to ANY one you know or counsel with. So, you wait, because some on OCDO said you should not shoot, then he straightens up and shoots YOU by surprise?

I'm seriously interested in the critics defining WHEN you should act in a case like this, just where that imaginary line is that is crossed in justified shootings.

I was never a pansy kid, but I don't know any one who did such a thing as this, in my growing up days, so I find it not-so-angel-like behaviour.

Old Virginia Joe said:

OK, so some of you think he should not have shot. Please tell us, in your opinions, just where is the line where you do shoot a home invader....snipped.........

I'm seriously interested in the critics defining WHEN you should act in a case like this, just where that imaginary line is that is crossed in justified shootings.

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Not kicking anyone - it is a case by case determination, is it not?

Consider all of the factors, respond accordingly, be right (no do overs), and do so in seconds or fractions thereof.

peter nap said:

Yes, you are TFred. Despite the fact that as parents we don't like it...sneaking out and getting drunk at least once is a rite of passage.
It calls for a summers grounding....

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I agree with this, but to some what quote most judges, "ignorance is not an excuse."

He was justified IMO. A simple solution for the kid would have been, call the parents, take your chewing that night instead of in the morning, and got the ride home. To many kids today roam around, with no fear/respect of there actions.

Kids do stupid stuff, wasn't that long ago for me *not disclosing my age..*

Both sides are right, a sad situation seems to be the best way to describe it.
This is just my take on the matter. I'm sure there will be some, who humbly disagree.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Actions and bad behavior have consequences.

How would this discussion be going if he had chosen to drive himself home, and on the way, wrapped his car around a tree? Or even worse, killed someone else in addition to himself?

A tree doesn't have the ability to reason, "oh, he's drunk, I won't kill him, he just needs to grow up a little..."

TFred

TFred said:

Actions and bad behavior have consequences.

How would this discussion be going if he had chosen to drive himself home, and on the way, wrapped his car around a tree? Or even worse, killed someone else in addition to himself?

A tree doesn't have the ability to reason, "oh, he's drunk, I won't kill him, he just needs to grow up a little..."

TFred

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He didn't do that though Tfred!

Grapeshot said:

Not kicking anyone - it is a case by case determination, is it not?

Consider all of the factors, respond accordingly, be right (no do overs), and do so in seconds or fractions thereof.

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Not much I can add to that!

It's like knowing when to set the hook when you're fishing.
Some people shouldn't fish.

Life seems to be very cheap north of the Ni!

I'd love to think that at 2 AM when suddenly faced with a home invader, in a split second I could asses his actions, behavior, body language and say oh crap its just a drunk kid, or this is a serious threat.

I'd love to think that. Reality? Your home has been invaded. Your family and self are likely in danger. Your hearts racing. Adrenaline is pumping. You come face to face with a homeowners worst nightmare. Instincts will take over and you will do what you believe needs doing.

Certainly just my $.02

peter nap said:

I've been following it and have been in discussions with nearby neighbors.

I think the basic facts as reported are correct.
As usual, I have my own opinion.

A. I think the homeowner was legally justified.

B. I think he got scared and shot when it was not necessary which brings up moral issues.

C. In all my not so tame youth, I've never been so drunk that I didn't realize a strange man was standing on my stairs with a gun telling me to stop....so I don't think it happened.

D. I think this is another of those cases where there are no winners. A young man who partied too much which we all have done, with the possible exception of Ed...is dead.
A homeowner killed him and will have to live with it, may be prosecuted and will certainly face civil action,,, and has had his life changed forever.

This is simply.....SAD!

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I have no idea what happened. It could be that the homeowner shot the intruder when he was far away, or it could have been that the intruder was the type of person who is agressive when drunk, thought that the homeowner was an intruder in his home, and charged him.

This individual who happened to be under age (though I disagree with drinking age laws) should not have become so drunk that he thought some other house was his house. Is this a cookie cutter neighborhood where all the houses are identical?

peter nap said:

He didn't do that though Tfred!

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peter nap said:

Life seems to be very cheap north of the Ni!

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I know that's not what he did, and although I am north of the Ni, you won't find anyone who places any more value on life than I do...

My point is that actions have consequences. He chose to become intoxicated to the point he did not know what he was doing. He could have just as easily driven into a tree, fallen down a flight of stairs, drowned in a hot tub, or walked in on an armed home owner. All of these actions could have ended with the same ultimate result.

We will never know what the resident saw, heard, or apprehended. For every 10 people, there would have been 10 different reactions. You have a lot of experience handling unwanted actions from people. Not everyone has that. That doesn't mean they don't value life any less. It means that they have to use the tools, training and experience at their disposal to make a decision and take an action that is required of them at that moment.

This kid would have been lucky if he had come into your house. He might be nursing a couple big dog bites right now. But he didn't get the luxury to choose the outcome of his poor decisions, he had to accept them as they came. And while that is certainly unfortunate, it is what it is.

Just to bring this back around to the original reason I posted... these parents "forgiving" the home owner is what really crossed the line for me. They wouldn't be offering forgiveness to a tree, or to a flight of stairs, or to a hot tub if he had been killed by any of those other actions. What if he had chosen to drive and ran into another car, killing himself, but not the other driver? Would they be "forgiving" that other driver for being the victim of their son's drunk driving? That doesn't seem any different than what they are doing here.

TFred

minarchist said:

Is this a cookie cutter neighborhood where all the houses are identical?

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Yeah, it is. They are expensive row houses (neighbors description to me).
The way I understand it, it was the friends that made the mistake.

peter nap said:

Yeah, it is. They are expensive row houses (neighbors description to me).
The way I understand it, it was the friends that made the mistake.

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The "friends?" Do you mean that the drunk kid's friends escorted him to the wrong house and sent him in the window?

TFred

TFred said:

Actions and bad behavior have consequences.

How would this discussion be going if he had chosen to drive himself home, and on the way, wrapped his car around a tree? Or even worse, killed someone else in addition to himself?

A tree doesn't have the ability to reason, "oh, he's drunk, I won't kill him, he just needs to grow up a little..."

TFred

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Not RKBA or OC related and would not have been posted to begin with, so, no discussion on what a tree would have thought.

Found this video, showing the houses... definitely not row houses, as I understand the term. (To me, a row house is a townhouse - 4 to 8 or so attached together in a row.)

Seem like decent folks - glad they are not hopping on the gun-control bandwagon. I bet they have had some pressure to do so (they seemed to initiate sharing that information). But I still don't get calling it an "accident."

Also good to see that the Sheriff is planning to investigate the source of the alcohol, if that indeed does prove to be the cause of his intoxication.

TFred

Old Virginia Joe said:

....just where is the line where you do shoot a home invader, halfway upstairs to you (and your family's) last retreat position, at 2 in the morning (and in the dark, or course), and you see this presumed "tall" (he was a HS varsity basketball player) "man" profile there, and you are half asleep yourself, not believing what you are seeing.

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Don't forget: 'with burglar alarm sounding in the background, and even after firing a 'warning shot', the man figure keeps advancing up the stairs....'

minarchist said:

Is this a cookie cutter neighborhood where all the houses are identical?

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I keep hearing this idea about cookie-cutter houses. I understand that in fact IS the case here. HOWEVER. I don't believe the bushes and trees in the front yard are the same, nor the cars in the drive, nor the lawn items around the back window where he crawled in, or the window treatments, nor the furniture arrangement and selection in the house, nor the exact same clutter in the house, and CERTAINLY, when I go in someone else's house, the FIRST thing I notice is the unique smell of that strange home! Everyone else's house has a smell I don't recognize, and I suspect I'm normal in that regard. That tells me, he was so out-of-it that he was headed for destruction, one way or the other, if not that night, then some other night soon, due to lack of plain old gumption. AND, what 17 year old does not have a key to his own house? There is yet another reason he should have noticed--his key didn't fit! Some people are just doomed. Sad no one noticed before now.

Old Virginia Joe said:

I keep hearing this idea about cookie-cutter houses. I understand that in fact IS the case here. HOWEVER. I don't believe the bushes and trees in the front yard are the same, nor the cars in the drive, nor the lawn items around the back window where he crawled in, or the window treatments, nor the furniture arrangement and selection in the house, nor the exact same clutter in the house, and CERTAINLY, when I go in someone else's house, the FIRST thing I notice is the unique smell of that strange home! Everyone else's house has a smell I don't recognize, and I suspect I'm normal in that regard. That tells me, he was so out-of-it that he was headed for destruction, one way or the other, if not that night, then some other night soon, due to lack of plain old gumption. AND, what 17 year old does not have a key to his own house? There is yet another reason he should have noticed--his key didn't fit! Some people are just doomed. Sad no one noticed before now.

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Since he sneaked out of the house in the first place to go to the party, I doubt he'd be using his key to sneak back in.

Yeah...the little bastard was doomed Joe. Sneaking out, drinking the devils brew, probably chasing loose women too. He got what he deserved.

Now they need to find those criminals that had the party. Save the ammunition though, it's expensive. Just string em up and let em hang for a while as a lesson to others.

Maybe get the pastor of the Westboro Church to say a few words when they're finally planted.

Great discussion and very eye opening.
I have a new rifle to sight in. It's getting close to turkey season so I'll leave it to everyone else now.