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California Legislature Wants Being a Politician as Good Cause for CC Permit

ConditionThree

State Pioneer
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
2,231
Location
Shasta County, California, USA
Regardless of what the differences are between California and New Hampshire, we must hold all state legislatures accountable to the basic rights enumerated in the Constitution.

How do you propose to hold the California legislature accountable to their Consitutitional obligations?

The problem with this, is that the constituents keep reelecting the same garden variety anti-gun polititians over and over again. Since the legislature and the executive branches of our government are controlled almost exclusively by anti-gunners, we have to recognize and act on the softer targets to both gain traction and constrain the bad actions of our representatives. That leaves the courts which are bound by precident and our honored Constitution.

If we ever tip the balance of power enough to control the assembly or the senate we may be able to hold them accountable in the way you are suggesting, but until then we must utilize the separated powers of our trilateral government to attain our goals.
 

Gray Peterson

Founder's Club Member - Moderator
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Lynnwood, Washington, USA
Gray, the problem with your position on most things related to open carry is that you don't anchor your principles and objectives to the Constitution.

The California politicians and the electorate have been ******** all over the US constitution for several decades.

ConditionThree pointed out the fallaciousness of your arguments to the level of it's outer extent. Unless you're planning on doing actual civil disobedience (loaded pistol carry in an incorporated city), then your suggestions are pretty much unhelpful. Going after PC626.9 results in judges ruling that the government has the right to make any place a sensitive place with no actual evidence. Going after PC12031, or even full carry bans like what exists in DC and Denver (for certain non-residents), or may-issue carry licensing, will result in, at first, federal judges ruling that carry is not at the core of the Second Amendment, and then masquerade the scrutiny level in intermediate, but is actually rational basis that they're applying.

Your only choice that you offer is civil disobedience, which unlike a matter of race (Please read the "Letters from Birmingham Jail" by MLK), gun carry is a choice that is not well regarded by our media. You will have no sympathy from anyone, including judge/jury or the prosecution.

In reality, you offer nothing.
 
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Gray Peterson

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He better get his license denial a la Heller to maintain standing to challenge his conviction...

I have serious doubts he would do so, despite multiple state supreme courts saying that you must attempt to apply first and get denied before one can do it as a defense.
 

coolusername2007

Regular Member
Joined
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Messages
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Temecula, California, USA
So, Sons, since you offer freedom and liberty as the founders intended, when are you going to start open carrying a loaded pistol in Riverside City?

Every time those who claim to be the right people lose the argument of freedom and liberty, they always fall back on suggesting others to break the law knowing full well there is no monetary or legal support for defending what they would not do themselves.
 

realityfatality

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2011
Messages
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Location
orange, california
So, Sons, since you offer freedom and liberty as the founders intended, when are you going to start open carrying a loaded pistol in Riverside City?

I don't see the issue. I've OC & LOC in public incorporated areas as well as concealed depending how frisky I feel about the day.

When you set out to break a law to prove a point I think you set yourself up for undeniable failure. When you ignore the law to protect you/your loved ones how you see fit people usually don't bother me, because I don't have the mindset to get attention.

I think if there is a threat level meter for america to be on alert, I should be able to have my own.
 

Gray Peterson

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Every time those who claim to be the right people lose the argument of freedom and liberty, they always fall back on suggesting others to break the law knowing full well there is no monetary or legal support for defending what they would not do themselves.

No, I'm asking him for an alternative. He speaks of "chains and servitude". He doesn't have any interest in having a real debate on the issue. He and I have had this debate before. He doesn't offer a solution to the problem, so I offered him a non-solution, which is LOC in an incorporated city, in violation of PC12031.

Considering his name, you'd think he would be proud and willing to do so....

From Wiki:

In December 1773, the Sons of Liberty issued and distributed a declaration in New York City called the Association of the Sons of Liberty in New York, which formally stated their opposition to the Tea Act and that anyone who assisted in the execution of the act was "an enemy to the liberties of America" and that "whoever shall transgress any of these resolutions, we will not deal with, or employ, or have any connection with him". The Sons of Liberty took direct action to enforce their opposition to the Tea Act at the Boston Tea Party. Members of the group, wearing disguises meant to evoke the appearance of Native American Indians, poured several tons of tea into the Boston Harbor in protest of the Tea Act. The Sons of Liberty sat in the long room above member Benjamin Edes's print shop and planned the famous tea party. During the planning, the Sons of Liberty drank from a punch bowl later donated to the Massachusetts Historical Society in Boston.

The Sons of Liberty were also responsible for the burning of HMS Gaspée in 1772.


It's unfortunate that he won't follow his namesakes.
 
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Gray Peterson

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I don't see the issue. I've OC & LOC in public incorporated areas as well as concealed depending how frisky I feel about the day.

When you set out to break a law to prove a point I think you set yourself up for undeniable failure. When you ignore the law to protect you/your loved ones how you see fit people usually don't bother me, because I don't have the mindset to get attention.

I think if there is a threat level meter for america to be on alert, I should be able to have my own.

There's plenty of folk who have illegally concealed carried in California. Given the low criminal penalty of a first offense, lots of folks chose to do this and use their 4th amendment rights to refuse searches. Tom Palmer (one of the plaintiffs in what became District of Columbia v. Heller, as well as the carry case Palmer v. District of Columbia illegally concealed carried in the early 1980's in San Jose, California, and used his unlawfully carried firearm to display towards a group of individuals who was going to beat him up because "It isn't cool to be gay in San Jose", or something similar to that.

I generally, in those cases, recommend applying for a PC12050 license first and getting denied. Courts of appeals in Maryland, New Jersey, and Massachusetts are refusing RKBA defenses if one doesn't apply for a carry license. Just sayin.....
 

realityfatality

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2011
Messages
56
Location
orange, california
There's plenty of folk who have illegally concealed carried in California. Given the low criminal penalty of a first offense, lots of folks chose to do this and use their 4th amendment rights to refuse searches. Tom Palmer (one of the plaintiffs in what became District of Columbia v. Heller, as well as the carry case Palmer v. District of Columbia illegally concealed carried in the early 1980's in San Jose, California, and used his unlawfully carried firearm to display towards a group of individuals who was going to beat him up because "It isn't cool to be gay in San Jose", or something similar to that.

I generally, in those cases, recommend applying for a PC12050 license first and getting denied. Courts of appeals in Maryland, New Jersey, and Massachusetts are refusing RKBA defenses if one doesn't apply for a carry license. Just sayin.....

Indeed, it carries less penalty than using blunt force instruments in california unless you don't own the firearm then it's more of a wobbler. And yes excercising the 4th amendment in situations like that is best.

Well the problem here is I don't qualify to apply. I don't even qualify to posess a handgun for a few years. But I know the probable outcome of the choices I make and I stand by them.
 
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coolusername2007

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Temecula, California, USA
No, I'm asking him for an alternative. He speaks of "chains and servitude". He doesn't have any interest in having a real debate on the issue. He and I have had this debate before. He doesn't offer a solution to the problem, so I offered him a non-solution, which is LOC in an incorporated city, in violation of PC12031.

Exactly, you offer nothing, except empty rhetoric, endless "two weeks" time frames, all in the hope of a government permission slip at the expense of true liberty. Next time you egg someone on to stand for all of our rights at least pledge your support.

The solution is very simple. There are many people ready, willing and able to stand for true liberty but an established support system from the leading 2A organizations is needed. The sad reality is they aren't interested.
 

Gray Peterson

Founder's Club Member - Moderator
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Lynnwood, Washington, USA
Exactly, you offer nothing, except empty rhetoric, endless "two weeks" time frames, all in the hope of a government permission slip at the expense of true liberty. Next time you egg someone on to stand for all of our rights at least pledge your support.

The solution is very simple. There are many people ready, willing and able to stand for true liberty

No, there isn't. If there was enough to make a difference, California wouldn't be in the condition that it's currently in with gun control among other forms of violations of liberty in general.

but an established support system from the leading 2A organizations is needed. [/U]The sad reality is they aren't interested.

No, the sad reality is that it's not possible get PC12031 repealed or struck down at this time. The courts, even the majority of SCOTUS, will not sign on to an OC only right, regardless of the four cases cited by SCOTUS in Heller. Time (not allowed to carry if you're convicted of certain crimes), place (sensitive places) and manner still applies to the 2A as much as it does to 1A.

From Bliss v. Commonwealth:
And can there be entertained a reasonable doubt but the provisions of the act import a restraint on the right of the citizens to bear arms? The court apprehends not. The right existed at the adoption of the constitution; it had then no limits short of the moral power of the citizens to exercise it, and it in fact consisted in nothing else but in the liberty of the citizens to bear arms. Diminish that liberty, therefore, and you necessarily restrain the right; and such is the diminution and restraint, which the act in question most indisputably imports, by prohibiting the citizens wearing weapons in a manner which was lawful to wear them when the constitution was adopted. In truth, the right of the citizens to bear arms, has been as directly assailed by the provisions of the act, as though they were forbid carrying guns on their shoulders, swords in scabbards, or when in conflict with an enemy, were not allowed the use of bayonets; and if the act be consistent with the constitution, it cannot be incompatible with that instrument for the legislature, by successive enactments, to entirely cut off the exercise of the right of the citizens to bear arms. For, in principle, there is no difference between a law prohibiting the wearing concealed arms, and a law forbidding the wearing such as are exposed; and if the former be unconstitutional, the latter must be so likewise.

Kentucky was the first state to ban concealed carry in 1813. Justice Scalia and Justice Alito were all about "as originally understood by the framers". The 2nd amendment was before Kentucky's concealed carry ban, and if you think that the Framers of the Constitution or the First Congress thought it would be OK for the Congress to pass Congressional criminal codes in the territories or in DC against concealed carry? No, they wouldn't have.

The animus against concealed carry is a primarily a southern creation, a creation of anti-liberty forces have made bad knowledge pervasive enough to overcome the truth in many spots of this country. An infection, which started in the south, spread to the certain western territories and states. These same creation called into question the manhood of anyone who decided that sometimes it's better to conceal. I don't believe our Founding Fathers would have supported that idea.

The fact is, despite the suppression by these anti-liberty forces, the desire to carry guns concealed in the face of that anti-liberty forces still remained strong. Even in Washington State, wherein I reside, where there are 400K CPL licensee's and a strong RKBA provision, the number of somewhat regular open carriers probably number around 2,000. I am one of them. I like doing so, because it's constitutionally protected up here and I'm an Arizonan by birth (saw OC a lot while growing up, it was the only way one can carry at the time).

We're activists. We signed up to be ambassadors, but up here in Washington, we're ambassadors for gun rights in general. It seems that some folks in the UOC community in California have forgotten that fact, or believe that only their method of carry is the only valid one.

Never ever underestimate the desire of people just wanting to be left alone, without attracting police attention continuously and continual social rejections. To them, concealed carry is the ONLY right that they can count on that gives them the maximum benefit for defense with almost no down sides.

My end goal is where both methods of loaded carry is not prior restraint licensed. What's yours?
 
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Gray Peterson

Founder's Club Member - Moderator
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Btw, I encourage all of you to actually read the entire bill and see the benefits it gives carry license applicants.

SB610

Senator Wright and Senator Correa are our friends. Senator Wright, when he was Assemblyman Wright, wrote one of the best laws in California to fixing some of the arbitrary nature of California carry licensing:

AB2022-1998

He wasn't able to fix everything with the previous bill he introduced, but there's an enormous pressure valve to issuing authorities if you read the bill right. If you have any questions, please feel free to PM me. The bill in this case should be supported, as it will significantly tighten the vice on the sheriff's and PD chiefs. Consider it a backup plan in case things go wrong and for some reason we don't have the 5 votes in SCOTUS to get "bear" recognized outside of the home. The "politician" provision will get severed out under current equal protection case law, leaving the other good stuff behind.
 
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marshaul

Campaign Veteran
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Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
The courts, even the majority of SCOTUS, will not sign on to an OC only right, regardless of the four cases cited by SCOTUS in Heller. Time (not allowed to carry if you're convicted of certain crimes), place (sensitive places) and manner still applies to the 2A as much as it does to 1A.

It occurs to me that y'all (CGF etc) have a lot riding on this assessment.

Meanwhile the general thrust seems to be going in the opposite direction.

We shall see, shan't we?
 
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marshaul

Campaign Veteran
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Aug 13, 2007
Messages
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Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Never ever underestimate the desire of people just wanting to be left alone, without attracting police attention continuously and continual social rejections. To them, concealed carry is the ONLY right that they can count on that gives them the maximum benefit for defense with almost no down sides.

My end goal is where both methods of loaded carry is not prior restraint licensed. What's yours?

Your goal can be whatever you say it is, but this is not the object of your actions.

I'm not sure how you have convinced yourself that bowing to mostly-fictitious "social rejections" and secretively exercising a privilege is going to result in license-free carry of either sort.

There are two methods before us: use the courts, affect popular opinion.

Your approach accomplishes nothing in the second aim, and in the first is totally dependent upon a strained and fit-to-expectations interpretation of court dicta.

The reference which Heller makes to Bliss does not relate to the bit you've extracted from it.

In fact, the dicta in Heller seems carefully chosen and selected to reinforce the notion that, while bearing arms is a right, concealing them is not.

The only logical conclusion to be reached from this is that the Heller court intends to interpret "bear" as "bear openly".

The more I think about this the more I am convinced that GCF is going to utterly fail their immediate goals. Y'all have completely ignored what was actually said, in favor of interpretations which make your strategy seem the most practicable -- a strategy you have selected for some of the most dubious reasons I have encountered (something about granny and social pressure).

Whereas Heller totally ignored the part of Bliss you mentioned, they didn't ignore the following at all, although you sure have:

Likewise, in State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann. 489, 490 (1850), the Louisiana Supreme Court held that citizens had a right to carry arms openly: “This is the right guar- anteed by the Constitution of the United States, and which is calculated to incite men to a manly and noble defence of themselves, if necessary, and of their country, without any tendency to secret advantages and unmanly assassinations.”

Whereas the term "concealed" is used 11 times, each of which as an example of precedent which determined the right doesn't extend to concealment:

Aymette held that the state constitutional guarantee of the right to “bear” arms did not prohibit the banning of concealed weapons.

...

For exam- ple, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues.

While I agree that concealed carry may be better for granny, and while I agree that in an ideal society government will not restrict such a right, I believe we are very far from such a society.

The SCOTUS is too pro-cop to take away a useful (although morally indefensible) law enforcement tool. They will favor OC since criminals prefer to CC.

The SCOTUS already did their analysis of the Jim Crowe history of gun control, and they didn't bother to point out that notions against CC were Jim Crowe in origin; nope, instead they advocated those notions themselves.

Your last post becomes very shrill in the defense of CC. In the same way you get so defensive over it, expect the SCOTUS to get defensive over OC. There seems to be very little chance they will share your perspective.
 
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