Yellow Cat Training In Wisconsin

To address the question Jim asked, before this got rather off-topic...
I would very much like to take the personal protection class. Any of the 4 days works for me.
(But if there aren't enough people, or it makes more sense to do a larger basic class - or two basic classes [woohoo!] - it's OK... I have my eye on the instructor course coming up soon.)

Outdoorsman1 said:

He has certifications and credentials that he has not even mentioned here.

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Then how would the new person know about them?

For ANYONE to question his authority, qualifications, and reasons for offering classes in WI just shows the total ignorance of the person doing the questioning.

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Questioning is good. That's how we learn.
Questioning rudely is, well, rude.
Questioning without paying attention to what's in front of you is kinda dumb.
The ignorance (or perhaps inattention?) is shown by:
1) not reading the post, quoted in its entirety*, which clearly laid out various instructor qualifications
2) not reading the assortment of threads discussing the new cc law & what qualifies as training
(FYI, santana, there's a link to a PDF of the law in my sig. Training requirements are on page 8, right-hand column.)

* [Highlight & delete is our friend.]

bmwguy11 said:

So, how does the PP in the home course work? Do you teach it in a classroom or a range or?

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Yes. Both.
Here's a page where you can get descriptions of the NRA classes:
http://www.nrainstructors.org/CourseCatalog.aspx

you mentioned you have to have NRA basic pistol first. But would you be willing to forego that requirement if we have have our UT permits? (my wife and I both took the basic pistol course at fletcher arms, and we both shoot almost weekly)

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If you took the Basic Pistol class at Fletcher's, you're good.
If you took Bob Llanas' intro... well, having had my first lesson from him myself, & reading the "equivalent experience" part of the course description, I'd say that's at least equivalent to First Steps, but it's not one of the things listed, so it's Jim's call as to whether or not to do a "pre-course assessment".

paul@paul-fisher.com said:

Jim is a NRA certified instructor offering NRA certification courses. Meets one or both of the above.



Jim is a UT certified firearms instructor and you can apply for a UT permit after completing his course so that meets this requirement.

As for owning a house, Jim was just stating that if people only like using WI based instructors, he is as close to one (land owner) as he can be without actually living here. If you don't care (I don't), don't worry about it.

All those are requirements, no interpretation allowed by the DOJ.

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I would say go to page 8 of the DOJ faq and read the IMPORTANT NOTICE.

This Is What The "Important Notice" States...

From page 8 of the FAQ for concealed carry:

IMPORTANT NOTE: DOJ is currently in the rule-making process and is evaluating what information will be required on the certificate to substantiate proof of training. We will not have specifics until the rule-making process is complete.

santana said:

I would say go to page 8 of the DOJ faq and read the IMPORTANT NOTICE.

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You mean the notice where it says they are still determining what information has to be on the certificate as proof of training (for those that took a course instead of one of the other methods such as a UT carry permit)?

Yea we have all read that notice. Did you notice how it says they are determining what information has to be on the certificate, and NOT what actually qualifies as training?


Again all moot if you take his UT class and get your UT permit since that GUARANTEES your qualification of training under the new Wisconsin law.

NRA Personal Protection Courses

Many Thanks to MKEGAL for posting the link to the NRA's course description page. While technically, there is no minimum marksmanship requirement for NRA First Steps, I work with students until they can pass the NRA-Winchester Basic Practical Rocker (NRA-Winchester Booklet, Page 6, using a 9-inch paper plate, students must shoot 10 plates with 5 rounds on each plate at a distance of 15 feet with all rounds being inside a margin that is one half inch from the edge of the plate.) Instructor discretion allows for a single paper plate to be used and in reality this is an 8.5 inch grouping at 15 feet. Thus any PPITH students who cannot show me an NRA Basic Pistol (or equivalent) can qualify on the range during the pistol shooting portion of the course - and earn the NRA-Winchester Marksmanship Program Basic Practical Rocker.

PPITH is an 8 hour course so, if I teach PPITH, there will be no other classes taught on that day. And, I will be frank. I would rather teach 20 students the NRA or UT Course without making any money, and thus make more law abiding citizens eligible to carry under AB 35 than to make $500 teaching PPITH.

The most popular days for instruction are likely to be SAT, SUN, and MON. I would like a sampling of who wants what on what dates so I can post my courses on the NRA's website. I also need to know how many NRA Course student packets to bring and for which courses. I currently have 20 NRA Basic Pistol, 2 NRA First Steps - Pistol, and 4 NRA PPITH Course packets. If I need more, I can get an order into NRA Monday and use 2nd day air to get them on time, but I have to pre-pay for student packets so I do not want to put out a lot of money and then not have students show up. (That is a problem in UT but I do not think it will be a problem in WI.)

Anyone considering an NRA Course, please make use of the link provided by MKEGAL and preview the course content.

Carry on

Jim

santana said:

I would say go to page 8 of the DOJ faq and read the IMPORTANT NOTICE.

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The FAQ/Memo has no weight. I would suggest you read the actual law, that will tell you what parts the DOJ can make rules for and what it can't. Even when it makes lists of states whose permits WI will honor, it is told how to and has no discretion. So.... Please go read 175.60(4) http://legis.wisconsin.gov/rsb/stats.html type in the number in the box in the upper left corner "Go to a specific Statute in the Infobase". Read it. Then go to 175.60(2)(b) "(b) The department may not impose conditions, limitations, or requirements that are not expressly provided for in this section on the issuance, scope, effect, or content of a license." Seems like their hands are tied except for what they are allowed to 'decide'.

Everyone keeps thinking 175.60(4)(b)(1) is the end all:

1. The department shall certify instructors for the purposes of par. (a) 1. c. and e. and shall maintain a list of instructors that it certifies. To be certified by the department as an instructor, a person must meet all of the following criteria:

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but they miss the little " for the purposes of par. (a) 1. c. and e." which read

175.60(4)(a)(1)(c) A firearms safety or training course that is available to the public and is offered by a law enforcement agency or, if the course is taught by an instructor who is certified by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors or by the department, by a technical college, a college or a university, a private or public institution or organization, or a firearms training school.

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175.60(4)(a)(1)(e) A firearms safety or training course that is conducted by a firearms instructor who is certified by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors or who is certified by the department.

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So, if you read in context, the DOJ can only certify people that meet the highlights above, no one else.

People keep missing the 'or'. Or means that if one of the criteria is met, that is all that matters.

bmwguy11 said:

So, how does the PP in the home course work? Do you teach it in a classroom or a range or ? I am VERY interested in that course. However, you mentioned you have to have NRA basic pistol first. But would you be willing to forego that requirement if we have have our UT permits? (my wife and I both took the basic pistol course at fletcher arms, and we both shoot almost weekly)

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PPITH consists of extensive classroom training including participation in exercises in the classroom, bad-guy break-in classroom exercises, a review of applicable Federal and WI State Law, and to be followed by about 2 -3 hours of range work where we will practice shooting from behind cover and concealment and the "double-tap" method of stopping a deadly threat.

If you do not have NRA First Steps - Pistol, NRA Basic Pistol or NRA-Winchester Basic Practical Rocker, (or equivalent) you will need 50 rounds for that qualification - see my last post. Depending on your marksmanship skills, you may wish to have an additional 100 - 300 rounds as well. I recommend that the pistol you bring be of "service size and caliber". It is very difficult to pass PPITH using a mouse gun (small .22, .380, etc - however, a match grade .22LR can be used)

The biggest difficulty I will have teaching PPITH (in WI) is that it requires a legal expert in the state the course is taught in. In UT, I can do this myself because I am a UTAH BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor. In WI, I will need to have my students locate a WI Attorney (or LEO) willing to review WI Law and the new WI Concealed Carry Law. Part of that review would be to present the WI DOJ FAQ document as it is an authoritative source of legal information in WI. If I cannot find a legal expert in WI, I cannot offer PPITH in WI. I cannot and will not deviate from NRA requirements so the legal expert thing is a deal killer.

paul@paul-fisher.com said:

Everyone keeps thinking 175.60(4)(b)(1) is the end all
but they miss the little " for the purposes of par. (a) 1. c. and e." which read

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Paul makes an excellent point. The only part of the law that might be subject to DOJ discretion is what constitutes a "firearm training school". Well established schools such as Front Sight (in Las Vegas) or DOA Tactical, or probably Calico Jack's business are clearly eligible. Overnight start-up businesses are a bit more murky.

Every legal expert I have talked to in WI to date has agreed that any NRA Course meets the letter of the Law with respect to AB 35 (SB-93 as amended). It is also clear that having a UT permit (or any State's permit) meets the letter of the law.

UT Permit advantages over FL include getting into MN. Another advantage is that the UT permit is less than half the price of the FL permit. (Having said that, FL only honors states that it has a formal written agreement with. It will be interesting to see how WI and FL work things out.)

Commercial Plug: - For my friends in the Wausau area, DOA Tactical will be in Wisconsin during mid-September to offer the UT Course and tactical courses. (John can teach you to golf - no clubs - just a Glock 17.) I highly recommend DOA Tactical. I have had the honor of serving as an adjunct instructor helping Brent and John certify NRA Instructor Candidates.

Jim,

While I don't live in WI, I do want to commend you for offering low price classes. In addition, your willingness to have payment plans as low as $.50 a month shows your dedication to the cause.

+1000

I agree totally on that. I am in for labor day weekend training session. calendar is wide open for this event!

Carry Open Carry On

BROKENSPROKET said:

Whatever. I don't think any of my posts got deleted.

ETA: I understand what you are saying. I guess I need to take a break from the forum. These people that don't know what they are talking about are getting on my nerves.

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+ 1 (me)....

C-ya's

Outdoorsman1

Please see today's new post on Training.