Woke up to this story this morning

As soon as i turned the tv on this morning, this story was on the news. Guy is doing time for protecting himself and family

http://www.wwmt.com/news/creek-1382943-felony-firearm.html

Crappy prosecutor ... and the fellow made the cardinal mistake... he talked to the police!

A true miscarriage of justice...

ETA: thanks for posting the story.

I read the story quickly so maybe I missed something.

Bill collector knocks or pounds on a guys door for 15 minutes, guy probably knows bill collector is there and after 15 minutes goes to said door with gun and threatens to kill the bill collector?

Why are people defending this guy?

There is no defense of home or family here, just someone pissed off at bill collector who won't stop knocking on the door. Correct thing to do would have been to call law enforcement not threaten the bill collector with deadly force for trespass.

Quotes from article:

"I saw Kyle come up to the door he had a gun in his hand. He pointed it at me and he said if you ever knock on my door again I'm going to put two in your face," said Moore.

Prater says the prosecutor portrayed Nuyen as an angry man who pulled a gun because he didn't want to pay a bill. She say in this case Nuyen would have been better off pulling the trigger.

warrior1978 said:

I read the story quickly so maybe I missed something.

Bill collector knocks or pounds on a guys door for 15 minutes, guy probably knows bill collector is there and after 15 minutes goes to said door with gun and threatens to kill the bill collector?

Why are people defending this guy?

There is no defense of home or family here, just someone pissed off at bill collector who won't stop knocking on the door. Correct thing to do would have been to call law enforcement not threaten the bill collector with deadly force for trespass.

Quotes from article:

"I saw Kyle come up to the door he had a gun in his hand. He pointed it at me and he said if you ever knock on my door again I'm going to put two in your face," said Moore.

Prater says the prosecutor portrayed Nuyen as an angry man who pulled a gun because he didn't want to pay a bill. She say in this case Nuyen would have been better off pulling the trigger.

Click to expand...

We aren't given much detail here.

What time of day was it? Was it after dark?

Did the guy know or have reason to know it was a bill collector before opening the door?

Did things transpire as the bill collector said? Are there any witnesses beside bs said/he said?

Did the home owner know "before hand" that the guy at the door was a bill collector? What kind of idiot stands there knocking on someone's door for 15 to 20 minutes? If they don't answer the door in the first several minutes then it would go to reason that they are: a: not home. b: busy and can't answer the door. c: not interested in what you are selling (or whatever). Or.... is the homeowner lying and saying he didn't point the gun at the bill collector when he actually did.

When someone is knocking on your door, do you answer it with your gun in hand and tell them that if they knock on your door again, you're going to put two bullets in them?

Maybe the homeowner knew it was the bill collector. Maybe he didn't. Either way, he over reacted. You don't threaten someone just because they knock on your door, even repeatedly like this idiot did.

The homeowner should have "not" brandished his weapon, and told the bill collector in no uncertain terms, to get the **** off of his porch and off his property. Then call the Cops if he doesn't.

From my personal experiences I inclined to be on the side of the Bill Collector in this one. I have never worked as a bill collector but I have ridden with some many times. I have been there when you would see the entire family out on the porch as you turn in the lane but by the time you get to the house not a soul around. You could bang on the door and blow the horn but no one home even though you see little faces peeking out the windows. Finally a child or maybe the wife would open the door. You ask for so-and-so, but he's not there, haven't seen him for a while and don't know when or if he will be back. However you saw him on the porch when you turned in the lane.

Now if you hadn't been there lately and think they may not know you, you say "That's too bad, I was here to pay him back that $25 I owe him but suppose I will have to wait". All of a sudden he arrives at home. :shocker: Bill collectors and repo men (not the ones on TV repo'ing cars) but the little ones have to use every trick they can. I went with one to repo a refrigerator once. We went to the door and told the wife what we were after. She said just let me get my food out. We heard all kinds of noise and the husband hollered you can get it now. He had taken an axe and beat it all to pieces.

The fellow in the OP may not have know for sure that it was a bill collector at the door but I can guarantee you that he suspected it was one.

I have to agree, the way the story is written the homeowner was clearly in the wrong, and was trying to get a "bill collector" off his back, if it truly went down as printed then he got what was coming to him. 15 min of knocking is 2 or 3 times longer than the time for police to get there if he had called 911, and in this case if he waited that long to answer the door he should have called 911, none of us would wait that long before picking up the phone or going to the door ????? right.

I have a ton of issues with this prosecution and why you would side with the intruder and not the gun owner devoid of any knowledge shows ignorance on what these so called bill collectors really do. I was hired by a number to serve writs and even accompany them to remove furniture or whatever the rent to own company has there because the Police didn't have man power to be there.

Now let's take a look.

Quote" Nuyen didn't shoot. He says he didn't even point the gun directly at the guy and he says he was just protecting his family."

I am missing this violent encounter you accused him of.

Now someone pounding on my door for 20 minutes is already a serious problem, I have a RIGHT to not answer my door for some jackass who's beating it down. I too have traveled with bill collectors and they have this attitude and I mean nearly all of them. I have walked away from one who when frustrated started kicking the bottom of the door. Now just so you know I used to serve writs and notices and I have yet to act like a fool on someones door frame and 20 minutes? This was the admission of the bill collector! Nothing like being a little abusive and excessive. Beat on my door for 20 minutes and you could have a very angry 245 pound former gym rat beating on your/his skull.

Here is the bill collectors admission and bet me he downplayed how long it was. ""Moore says he continued to knock intermittently for 15 to 20 minutes while Nuyen was upstairs""

I am betting it was not intermittent I am betting he like many bill collectors I have worked with got angry because someone made him wait for more than 3 minutes and started pounding on the door because in his own words he knew they were home, and being ignored in his mind enraged him. How dare they ignore me....
I have had this done to me many times and I show up with a writ and give them 3 minutes to answer and I watch my watch and then I use 3 inch wide masking tape and tape that writ at face level to his/her door and take a photo of it and the door then walk away.

Now let's look deeper. ""My son was sleeping, my daughter was downstairs on the couch sleeping and I was upstairs in the bathroom. She came running upstairs and said someone's trying to break in the door. I immediately grabbed my pistol off the microwave," said Kyle Nuyen."

with the average American spending 20 to 45 minutes in the shower and getting pretty I have no problem with the above statement.

Kyle being assaulted 3 times is believable and anyone who knows that neighborhood can see that as a real possibility.

Now again this intruder claims one thing and the Homeowner claims another so who is telling the truth? Who knows, but one must ask who is the intruder and I find it very weird that bill collectors today still pound on doors. In the countless court writs I have served, None of these collectors have knocked on doors because of the potential dangers involved they usually get a court order or writ which means they show up with others aka the Police or myself.

What we have is a he said she said issue here with a troubling admission ignored by the prosecutor. 20 minutes of beating on anyone's door is excessive, if you doubt this get watch or stop watch and go pound on your own door that long then tell me it isn't bizarre in the least to be knocking that long.

I am again troubled by your biased remarks taking sides when this story obviously has two different people saying two different things.

I took the story to be a little sympathetic with the homeowner by the way the writer presented the facts.

None of us were there but again and again I find the behavior of the rent to won guy troubling and it's my guess the attitude was his as he may have been angered by the fact as he himself stated they didn't answer the door quickly enough, remembering he was the one who complained he had to knock for 20 minutes.

Let's not be so quick to lynch the homeowner and gun owner. The rent to won guys statements make no sense in light of his own statements.

For Now I will let the appeals court decide and this might be a lesson to those who think that being a thug at someones door, isn't a great idea. Bill collector or not.

warrior1978 said:

I read the story quickly so maybe I missed something.

Bill collector knocks or pounds on a guys door for 15 minutes, guy probably knows bill collector is there and after 15 minutes goes to said door with gun and threatens to kill the bill collector?

Why are people defending this guy?

There is no defense of home or family here, just someone pissed off at bill collector who won't stop knocking on the door. Correct thing to do would have been to call law enforcement not threaten the bill collector with deadly force for trespass.

Quotes from article:

"I saw Kyle come up to the door he had a gun in his hand. He pointed it at me and he said if you ever knock on my door again I'm going to put two in your face," said Moore.

Prater says the prosecutor portrayed Nuyen as an angry man who pulled a gun because he didn't want to pay a bill. She say in this case Nuyen would have been better off pulling the trigger.

Click to expand...

I personally don’t have a problem with him answering the door with a gun in his hand (provided there was a reason like someone pounding violently on the door) so long as it was pointed in a safe and non threatening direction.

The two problems I see are:

1. Making threats to someone who is knocking on the door. If someone is actually trespassing simply call law enforcement and let them handle it. Making threats by themselves usually doesn’t go very far, but when you have a visible firearm and make those threats you are put into a different class of people.
2. Mistake number two – talking to the police. I’m willing to bet if he didn’t talk to the police it would have been a very difficult case to prove and most prosecutors would not have touched this case.

The Rent to own guy said 15 to 20 minutes and I am betting he downplayed that excessive behavior to make himself look good. And anyone knows FEDERAL law states you can say do not come to my home and they loose that option.

I have a question being one of those who used to knock on doors to get money. You think 20 minutes isn't excessive behavior?!?!?

They way the story is written shows the writer thinks the homeowner was mistreated that's why the story was first framed with the homeowners side of the story.

Harassment by bill collectors is a violation of Federal law! 20 minutes is harassment. And a 20 minute bathroom stay for most isn't excessive when showering and what ever people do.

I love how so called gun rights sensitive people quickly take sides with those who historically anti gun aka prosecutors and the court system.

There is nothing in this story that shows guilt, in fact it raises questions about the bill collectors actions.

Rasher said:

I have to agree, the way the story is written the homeowner was clearly in the wrong, and was trying to get a "bill collector" off his back, if it truly went down as printed then he got what was coming to him. 15 min of knocking is 2 or 3 times longer than the time for police to get there if he had called 911, and in this case if he waited that long to answer the door he should have called 911, none of us would wait that long before picking up the phone or going to the door ????? right.

Click to expand...

We agree till your erroneous assumption the homeowner brandished his weapon. I do in fact answer my door with a gun in my hand always 100% of the time if that face in the camera is not known to me. Now I am much more tactical that the average idiot. I am left handed and When I open that door with gun in my left hand it can't be seen by the person(s) at the door because it's behind the door With my foot braced against the door in case someone try's to kick or force the door open. I bet you are wondering why? Look at my member name, it should be obvious. I have PPO's against people who are a little upset that I took them back to prison and some who are not happy with what I found on them when I owned a Detective agency.

Now we have a homeowner that was beaten or assaulted on his own door step at least 3 times and the writer could easily have contradicted him with a call to check such complaints.

On a final note that everyone has missed so far. The N.R.A. has contributed $9000.00 to defend the homeowner and let me educate you on the NRA, they investigate all those cases long before a single penny is released and long before they will even accept a case to investigate for possible funding to make sure it's a winner. That alone tells me the NRA feels this case is a lynching of the Home owner. I have dealt with the NRA legal dept before on behalf of someone and they are picky in the extreme. So this alone tells me the appeal potentially has merit and the rent to own guy may have perjured himself in court. Next time any of you who took sides against that homeowner gets in a jam try and get the NRA to let loose of a penny and see how impossible it is to get them to help you.

I am 70/30 here with the Homeowner in the lead. My experiences with cops that lie in court and prosecutors that are nothing but liars tends to make me suspicious that this is an attempt to turn the castle doctrine upside down.

Remember our best friend L. Brooks Patterson was a prosecutor....

tkruf said:

Did the home owner know "before hand" that the guy at the door was a bill collector? What kind of idiot stands there knocking on someone's door for 15 to 20 minutes? If they don't answer the door in the first several minutes then it would go to reason that they are: a: not home. b: busy and can't answer the door. c: not interested in what you are selling (or whatever). Or.... is the homeowner lying and saying he didn't point the gun at the bill collector when he actually did.

When someone is knocking on your door, do you answer it with your gun in hand and tell them that if they knock on your door again, you're going to put two bullets in them?

Maybe the homeowner knew it was the bill collector. Maybe he didn't. Either way, he over reacted. You don't threaten someone just because they knock on your door, even repeatedly like this idiot did.

The homeowner should have "not" brandished his weapon, and told the bill collector in no uncertain terms, to get the **** off of his porch and off his property. Then call the Cops if he doesn't.

Click to expand...

Wrong! Battle creek is a joke just like Detroit on response time if they even get there at all. And I have worked with these idiots who collect and I have in fact walked away because of their THUG behavior. They as routine make threats and act as bullies to get the money they want and most are paid on commission, and get really pissy when they have someone who won't play the game. Why do you think there were Federal laws passed to limit their abusive behaviors? Why do you think that a simple request to never call or visit is backed by Federal law? I have witnessed these morons who were told to never come here again and contact me by mail tell the debtor , "they don't have to obey Federal law and too damn bad" and at that point I walked away and called the supervisor who told me they have to do this to collect the money. When I asked if violating Federal laws was a good idea he told me that's " How the game is played" and then said we can deny he ever told us to not come to his home or call. On another note My sister was also a bill collector and after 6 months she quit the job telling me what they are told to do is beyond legal. She said the stress was killing her.

We must know history of bill collections and in old England they had debtor prisons. We abolished this kind of stupidity and the Founders of this Nation went with Biblical laws of seven year abolitionism of debts, which the bill collector industry is trying to get around as we argue this. now they sell a debt to another and then another claiming when it's sold the 7 years starts over which is false and even when challenged they still violate Federal laws with impunity.

Never talk to the Police it will not save you and will most likely destroy you as too many cops lie.

You said he made treats and I say the bill collector may be a liar, so who is telling the truth? Bill collectors are notorious liars so who shall we believe?

Again the NRA is investing it's reputation and a ton of money on the Homeowner that makes me think this story is maybe leaving out things that in court may have seriously tarnished the bill collectors story. Maybe Perjury?

budlight said:

I personally don’t have a problem with him answering the door with a gun in his hand (provided there was a reason like someone pounding violently on the door) so long as it was pointed in a safe and non threatening direction.

The two problems I see are:

1. Making threats to someone who is knocking on the door. If someone is actually trespassing simply call law enforcement and let them handle it. Making threats by themselves usually doesn’t go very far, but when you have a visible firearm and make those threats you are put into a different class of people.
2. Mistake number two – talking to the police. I’m willing to bet if he didn’t talk to the police it would have been a very difficult case to prove and most prosecutors would not have touched this case.

Click to expand...

Armchair Quarter-Back Here. From what has been provided:

1. Someone knocking on the front door, no matter for how long, does not rise to the level of meeting Michigan Self-Defense Requirements for utilizing Deadly Force or Force Other Than Deadly Force. I agree with it being excessive when it was done for 15-20 minutes. Either ignore them, answer without opening the door and tell them to go away, call the Police to have them remove the person from your property, or a combination of these.

2. Sounds like he talked to the Police. Bad Move! Sounds like he possibly testified during the Trial or that previous testimony was used against him during the Trial. Bad Move!

3. From the statements, he appears to have committed Assault whether he pointed the pistol at the guy or not.

Kyle Nuyen said:

I immediately grabbed my pistol off the microwave.

I warned him. I told him to get off my property now or I would shoot him.

Click to expand...

Cecil Moore said:

I saw Kyle come up to the door he had a gun in his hand. He pointed it at me and he said if you ever knock on my door again I'm going to put two in your face.

Click to expand...

WWMT.COM said:

In court transcripts the prosecutor contends Nuyen should have called 911 before grabbing his gun.

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Deputy Sheriff's Association of Michigan said:

Assault is an attempt or threat, with unlawful force, to inflict bodily injury upon another, accompanied by the apparent present ability to carry out the intent if not deterred by another. A threat coupled with present ability may be considered an assault. Battery is the actual physical harm. Remember, this is an immediate threat. A threat of a future harm even if it is only minutes away might not be considered assault.

Click to expand...

4. This news source appears to have transcripts of the Court Case, makes this a little more credible article than I would normally expect.


References:

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-328-1931-XI

http://www.mymichigandefenselawyer.com/michigan-criminal-laws/michigan-assault-laws/

http://dsam-mi.org/content/view/227/137/

Bailenforcer said:

The Rent to own guy said 15 to 20 minutes and I am betting he downplayed that excessive behavior to make himself look good. And anyone knows FEDERAL law states you can say do not come to my home and they loose that option.

I have a question being one of those who used to knock on doors to get money. You think 20 minutes isn't excessive behavior?!?!?

They way the story is written shows the writer thinks the homeowner was mistreated that's why the story was first framed with the homeowners side of the story.

Harassment by bill collectors is a violation of Federal law! 20 minutes is harassment. And a 20 minute bathroom stay for most isn't excessive when showering and what ever people do.

I love how so called gun rights sensitive people quickly take sides with those who historically anti gun aka prosecutors and the court system.

There is nothing in this story that shows guilt, in fact it raises questions about the bill collectors actions.

Click to expand...

Works for me, call the Police and have them arrest the guy (Bolded part above). Sounds like he opted for something else...

Bailenforcer said:

We agree till your erroneous assumption the homeowner brandished his weapon. I do in fact answer my door with a gun in my hand always 100% of the time if that face in the camera is not known to me. Now I am much more tactical that the average idiot. I am left handed and When I open that door with gun in my left hand it can't be seen by the person(s) at the door because it's behind the door With my foot braced against the door in case someone try's to kick or force the door open. I bet you are wondering why? Look at my member name, it should be obvious. I have PPO's against people who are a little upset that I took them back to prison and some who are not happy with what I found on them when I owned a Detective agency.

Now we have a homeowner that was beaten or assaulted on his own door step at least 3 times and the writer could easily have contradicted him with a call to check such complaints.

On a final note that everyone has missed so far. The N.R.A. has contributed $9000.00 to defend the homeowner and let me educate you on the NRA, they investigate all those cases long before a single penny is released and long before they will even accept a case to investigate for possible funding to make sure it's a winner. That alone tells me the NRA feels this case is a lynching of the Home owner. I have dealt with the NRA legal dept before on behalf of someone and they are picky in the extreme. So this alone tells me the appeal potentially has merit and the rent to own guy may have perjured himself in court. Next time any of you who took sides against that homeowner gets in a jam try and get the NRA to let loose of a penny and see how impossible it is to get them to help you.

I am 70/30 here with the Homeowner in the lead. My experiences with cops that lie in court and prosecutors that are nothing but liars tends to make me suspicious that this is an attempt to turn the castle doctrine upside down.

Remember our best friend L. Brooks Patterson was a prosecutor....

Click to expand...

See the bolded part above and the quoted part below. I can understand how you could infer this, but it is not actually stated that way. The statements of "at my house" and "outside his home" could be anywhere on his property - driveway, door step, lawn, etc.

WWMT.COM said:

"My immediate threat was at the door. I have two small children to protect and I had been being threatened at my house for the better part of three months," said Nuyen.

Nuyen says he was assaulted three times outside his home for unknown reasons which is why he was on edge.

Click to expand...

I wonder if he called the Police on these other occasions where he was assaulted? I would hope his lawyer would have brought those up during the trial if they existed.

remember the article is highly edited from what was said in court.

1. We do not know of the rent to own guy got up in his face or acted in a threatening manner. I have seen these guys push the law to the point of assault themselves, this is why I stopped service to them. I didn't need something to go really wrong while I as there. To knock for 20 minutes is plain bizarre behavior, and borders on being abusive.

2. yes a really ill informed move on his part and he may have done so knowing what he did want not wrong and the story got twisted to what we have now and it may be a skewed case.

3. Never never believe what is written in the media. There are literally thousands of times in recent history the media plain lied and fabricated a story. I find agreement with you often but in this case we part. I don't even know of those quotes of the homeowner were in context or fabricated.


here are links worth looking at.

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-...ied-to-about-u-s-guns-and-mexican-cartels-why

The first one is about the claim that 90% of the illegal guns seized in Mexico were from the USA then it was challenged and it became 25% then we find out even later that it was far less than 25% and Mexico refused to provide serial numbers for the BATF to verify the claim that the media parroted for almost a year knowing it was a bald faced lie. Then we find new figures by actual experts saying it might be at 4% and those were mostly stolen weapons by illegals (Mexican Citizens) that Mexico refuses to stop at the border when they break into this country. Yet still today we hear the media telling this lie that was proven to be a lie. Mexico still refuses to come clean with those serial numbers, and most of the guns shown are fully automatic G-3's and AK-47's by the media and most idiots here can't distinguish the difference between a Military weapon and a consumer bought gun.

Yes I mistrust the media, and the medias dishonesty makes sure I will continue to mistrust them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez4zVwxCCtc

PDinDetroit said:

Armchair Quarter-Back Here. From what has been provided:

1. Someone knocking on the front door, no matter for how long, does not rise to the level of meeting Michigan Self-Defense Requirements for utilizing Deadly Force or Force Other Than Deadly Force. I agree with it being excessive when it was done for 15-20 minutes. Either ignore them, answer without opening the door and tell them to go away, call the Police to have them remove the person from your property, or a combination of these.

2. Sounds like he talked to the Police. Bad Move! Sounds like he possibly testified during the Trial or that previous testimony was used against him during the Trial. Bad Move!

3. From the statements, he appears to have committed Assault whether he pointed the pistol at the guy or not.









4. This news source appears to have transcripts of the Court Case, makes this a little more credible article than I would normally expect.


References:

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-328-1931-XI

http://www.mymichigandefenselawyer.com/michigan-criminal-laws/michigan-assault-laws/

http://dsam-mi.org/content/view/227/137/

Click to expand...

For anyone interested, here is this guy in OTIS:

http://www.state.mi.us/mdoc/asp/otis2profile.asp?mdocNumber=743340

For anyone interested, here are the cases for this guy in the MI Court of Appeals:

http://coa.courts.mi.gov/resources/...senumber=295054&fparties=&inqtype=public&yr=0

http://coa.courts.mi.gov/resources/...senumber=299089&fparties=&inqtype=public&yr=0

It looks like his first appeal failed.

So being assaulted on your front lawn is better than in your home?

Assault is assault and threats are threats no matter what part of my Curtilage it happens on.

Be careful you are in fact arguing away the Castle doctrine law.

I stand that the NRA is well known not to take cases that are in question. I suspect the NRA legal teams knows things we do not and judging by my dealings with them, experience tells me there are several things this article has not mentioned.

I will if in doubt side on the Castle Doctrine laws and not some admitted thug who beat on a door for 15 to 20 minutes and I am more than willing to bet almost everyone here would have great issue with some idiot pounding on their doors for 15 or 20 minutes and I am betting after the first 5 minutes Mr Collector was loosing his professionalism and cool. It is NOT professional to pound on a door for 20 minutes it is in fact pretty insane. The last time I had this experience it was a guy who later had a violent stand off with the East Jordan Police, Charlevoix County Sheriff dept and State police where he went postal with 3 rifles in his truck. he made threats to murder the Doctors at the east Jordan Clinic and then the Police when he found out they were called. That 20 minute door incident I find disturbing. Like I said in a previous post try a 20 minute door knocking session or have someone do this while you are in your home, it gets disturbing in short order. In my case I chose to ignore him and I am glad I did. I suspected the behavior as a mental condition because no normal person does this, and never does a professional. \

One has to walk a mile in anothers shoes to find out what he gos through. I will again side with the rights of the homeowner till I have proof otherwise. I will not side with the gun grabbers, and with the total lacking of real facts in this story it is good policy.

PDinDetroit said:

See the bolded part above and the quoted part below. I can understand how you could infer this, but it is not actually stated that way. The statements of "at my house" and "outside his home" could be anywhere on his property - driveway, door step, lawn, etc.



I wonder if he called the Police on these other occasions where he was assaulted? I would hope his lawyer would have brought those up during the trial if they existed.

Click to expand...