Then shoot me... If I'm stealing your money by threat of force then shoot me...

This line was brought up in another thread, it was off topic but I think a good point to discuss.

It was in response that the poster believes he has a right to education. To which it was pointed out yes he does but not the right to steal from others for it.

Yet he isn't the only one saying this I have heard this line in other political discussion not on this board that I am part of.

My response is and has been to that if people feel this strongly about it why don't they come and personally take the funds for their education, healthcare, food, etc themselves.

The truth of the matter is it is threat of force, most people are not voluntarily giving up their hard earned wages they need to support their families, to feed themselves or heavens forbid save up for their elderly years when they no longer can work so as not to be a burden upon their loved ones and the state. The reason they do so is because of the threat of force it is that simple, it is human nature to have a sense of self preservation, we know that if we refuse to comply we die. People can cloak it in what ever terminology and political wrangling they want, we can call the dog shite in our yard many euphemisms the truth of the matter is it's still shite.

So again I reiterate if you do not think it's theft then back up your ideology by personally volunteering to go collect what you feel others owe you, don't rely on the armed thugs of the state, or is it because your own sense of self preservation tells you that would be a foolish detrimental thing to do?

Stand by your so-called Principle, that it is Theft...refuse to pay Taxes.

I will pick up where you left off in your post: If Taxation is a threat against you, either by the State, or a Person, defend yourself; you are within your Constitutional Right to defend yourself. You have asserted that your life is a stake if you don't pay taxes...defend yourself, Patriot.

If you feel like you're being threatened with your life by not paying Property Taxes for Public Schools, then defend yourself.

If you don't like paying taxes the disassociate yourself from the Fabric of Society, and live as a hermit in the mountains; build yourself a log cabin, don't purchase anything manufactured by Modern Society.--become that Autonomous Man that Walden, and many like him have had wet dreams about becoming...you social creature, you!

I see no right to an education at the expense of others. However, I see it as wise public policy to use tax money to make education available to all who do not disrupt the process. IMO, it should be locally funded with full choice. States can become involved if the republican process so chooses. The feds do not have authority in the 18 enumerated powers to fund or regulate education.


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<o>

sudden valley gunner said:

This line was brought up in another thread, it was off topic but I think a good point to discuss.

It was in response that the poster believes he has a right to education. To which it was pointed out yes he does but not the right to steal from others for it.

Yet he isn't the only one saying this I have heard this line in other political discussion not on this board that I am part of.

My response is and has been to that if people feel this strongly about it why don't they come and personally take the funds for their education, healthcare, food, etc themselves.

The truth of the matter is it is threat of force, most people are not voluntarily giving up their hard earned wages they need to support their families, to feed themselves or heavens forbid save up for their elderly years when they no longer can work so as not to be a burden upon their loved ones and the state. The reason they do so is because of the threat of force it is that simple, it is human nature to have a sense of self preservation, we know that if we refuse to comply we die. People can cloak it in what ever terminology and political wrangling they want, we can call the dog shite in our yard many euphemisms the truth of the matter is it's still shite.

So again I reiterate if you do not think it's theft then back up your ideology by personally volunteering to go collect what you feel others owe you, don't rely on the armed thugs of the state, or is it because your own sense of self preservation tells you that would be a foolish detrimental thing to do?

Click to expand...

+1

Great argument.

sudden valley gunner said:

This line was brought up in another thread, it was off topic but I think a good point to discuss.

It was in response that the poster believes he has a right to education. To which it was pointed out yes he does but not the right to steal from others for it.

Yet he isn't the only one saying this I have heard this line in other political discussion not on this board that I am part of.

My response is and has been to that if people feel this strongly about it why don't they come and personally take the funds for their education, healthcare, food, etc themselves.

The truth of the matter is it is threat of force, most people are not voluntarily giving up their hard earned wages they need to support their families, to feed themselves or heavens forbid save up for their elderly years when they no longer can work so as not to be a burden upon their loved ones and the state. The reason they do so is because of the threat of force it is that simple, it is human nature to have a sense of self preservation, we know that if we refuse to comply we die. People can cloak it in what ever terminology and political wrangling they want, we can call the dog shite in our yard many euphemisms the truth of the matter is it's still shite.

So again I reiterate if you do not think it's theft then back up your ideology by personally volunteering to go collect what you feel others owe you, don't rely on the armed thugs of the state, or is it because your own sense of self preservation tells you that would be a foolish detrimental thing to do?

Click to expand...

Why are you so terrified of the .gov? We can't make you any less paranoid or fearful. You see the threat of force in EVERYTHING. No matter how many examples we give, you just keep going back to it.

The taxes thing... I already showed examples of dudes owing thousands (hundreds) of dollars and NEVER GETTING SHOT and only sometimes ARRESTED.

Just be a soverign citizen. Refuse to register your car, refuse to pay taxes, refuse to educate your kids, refuse to buy insurance. Hang a little cardboard sign on your rear window, and then when you get pulled over for it go ahead and get rowdy. That my friend is when you will unfortunately see force applied. Just do everyone else a favor and don't get anyone else hurt with your paranoid delusions, to include your family if all possible. So leave your children at home and the wife and take back your money as others have said on here.

I'll cut to the end. You'll lose. You will be hurt at the very least. You can instead do like the other 99% of intelligent guys on here and focus on voting or participating in the political process to actually PEACEFULLY change things. That way you'll not be just chalked up as another guy who went nuts and accomplished nothing. Instead you can be part of a group that actually gets back rights and helps everyone.

sudden valley gunner said:

SNIP...The truth of the matter is it is threat of force, most people are not voluntarily giving up their hard earned wages they need to support their families, to feed themselves or heavens forbid save up for their elderly years when they no longer can work so as not to be a burden upon their loved ones and the state. The reason they do so is because of the threat of force it is that simple, it is human nature to have a sense of self preservation, we know that if we refuse to comply we die. People can cloak it in what ever terminology and political wrangling they want, we can call the dog shite in our yard many euphemisms the truth of the matter is it's still shite.

So again I reiterate if you do not think it's theft then back up your ideology by personally volunteering to go collect what you feel others owe you, don't rely on the armed thugs of the state, or is it because your own sense of self preservation tells you that would be a foolish detrimental thing to do?

Click to expand...

+1 Everytime I hear someone say "you don't need more than a million dollars, so the rest of that money should be given to the poor", I always ask "given to the poor by whom?" They usually say the government, but sto short of saying by force or threat of force.
Reminds me of a quote (albeit not entirely in the same context, since I believe "greed" would be a better term in the context of this thread, and not "courage").
"Those who lack the courage will always find a philosophy to justify it."*-- Albert Camus

Primus said:

Why are you so terrified of the .gov? We can't make you any less paranoid or fearful. You see the threat of force in EVERYTHING. No matter how many examples we give, you just keep going back to it.

SNIP TO SAVE SPACE...

I'll cut to the end. You'll lose. You will be hurt at the very least. You can instead do like the other 99% of intelligent guys on here and focus on voting or participating in the political process to actually PEACEFULLY change things. That way you'll not be just chalked up as another guy who went nuts and accomplished nothing. Instead you can be part of a group that actually gets back rights and helps everyone.

Click to expand...

He's merely pointing out where government duty actually lies versus where it is now, engorged on power (meaning "threat of force and ability to carry out that force" here) it gave itself.
Besides, while I agree that change should come about as peacefully as possible, sometimes it just isn't possible. To paraphrase "Unlce Phil" from Fresh Prince of Bel-Air: I'll fight from my desk, and I'll fight in the courtroom. Only when all else fails will I fight on the streets.

Rusty Young Man said:

He's merely pointing out where government duty actually lies versus where it is now, engorged on power it gave itself.
Besides, while I agree that change should come about as peacefully as possible, sometimes it just isn't possible. To paraphrase "Unlce Phil" from Fresh Prince of Bel-Air: I'll fight from my desk, and I'll fight in the courtroom. Only when all else fails will I fight on the streets.

Click to expand...

I actually agree with bolded. But the issue is a TINY percentage of the population keeps losing in the courts. In fact, we;ve gained MANY good cases fromt he courts in just the past few years. So how are we winning good cases, but then going to spout this kind of stuff?

Primus said:

I actually agree with bolded. But the issue is a TINY percentage of the population keeps losing in the courts. In fact, we;ve gained MANY good cases fromt he courts in just the past few years. So how are we winning good cases, but then going to spout this kind of stuff?

Click to expand...

Because some of "us" (U.S. citizens and aspiring citizens, for the purpose of my post) remember reading the "deriving their Just powers from the consent of the governed" part when the original document expressing solidarity of the states was written.
I wouldn't want to generalize with the "we," however.

And the "threat of force to carry out force" as ALWAYS existed. Since the first damn day cave men got into a group (or God made A&E) there was SOME kind of .gov. ALWAYS. And what has the .gov ALWAYS done? Slapped you when you did something wrong. For the 100th time, our .gov is better then anything thats been before it. Can it get better? Yes. Definitely, much better. But do we have to spout off about violence because we are pissed we can't OC in WAL-MART? Really?

Do you guys (just the few that whole heartedly agree with the OP) really think your plights are ANYTHING like what our FFs went through? Your pissed you have to pay taxes, even though you get a Rep you can change. Even though you can SEE what they are spending, even though you can call or write a letter or picket on their front step. We seperated because the dudes that ran our country were a million miles away. And they just passed whatever law he wanted. Then sent dudes over here to sleep in your house, molest your wife, eat your food, then hang you or throw you in jail if you didn't pay taxes. THOSE were patriots. THEY had it rough. They had every reason to be pissed and want to fight.

Some guys today just sound like whiny little girls and have NO IDEA what a really jacked up .gov is. Have NO IDEA what oppression really is. Have no idea what real threat of violence is. I could waste all night listing all kinds of awful atrocities that other countries have done and still do, but it's not worth my time because you'll never see anything besides your own greed (what else is not wanting to contribute money?).

I sincerely apologize to everyone else for the rant. I just can only take this Soverign stuff for so long. They take away from the real patriots and belittle our founding fathers by even trying to compare themselves. We have some crappy laws. So lets use the system and fix them instead of just blowing smoke.

Bwaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa!!!

Primus is going around in circles again using almost the same arguments he did weeks ago in the last "threat of force" discussion.

Really? The same fallacies. The same everything (almost). Its like he's completely forgotten how he embarrassed himself last time having to pretend he was saying something else and keep changing what he was saying.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahaa!!

Citizen said:

Bwaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa!!!

Primus is going around in circles again using almost the same arguments he did weeks ago in the last "threat of force" discussion.

Really? The same fallacies. The same everything (almost). Its like he's completely forgotten how he embarrassed himself last time having to pretend he was saying something else and keep changing what he was saying.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahaa!!

Click to expand...

Care to refute anything I said? At least some others were smart enough to form a counter opinion and facts to base it on.


The guy who just posted half a post with Bwahahahaha is saying I'm embarrassing myself? Really? Pot call the kettle black much?

Primus said:

Care to refute anything I said? At least some others were smart enough to form a counter opinion and facts to base it on.


The guy who just posted half a post with Bwahahahaha is saying I'm embarrassing myself? Really? Pot call the kettle black much?

Click to expand...

We already did. In a thread two or three weeks ago.

Your tactic seems to be to pretend you weren't previously refuted, to just start up the same arguments again.

Primus said:

Care to refute anything I said?...

Click to expand...

I doubt it.

I would only say that folks cogitating on the matter are more likely to lend credence to a well-expressed argument than to a juvenile buwhahaha. So, if he is tryng to sway others from your POV, he is accomplishing the exact opposite.

I say this despite the fact that I tend to agree with him more than you.


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<o>

Primus said:

Why are you so terrified of the .gov? We can't make you any less paranoid or fearful. You see the threat of force in EVERYTHING. No matter how many examples we give, you just keep going back to it.

The taxes thing... I already showed examples of dudes owing thousands (hundreds) of dollars and NEVER GETTING SHOT and only sometimes ARRESTED.

Just be a soverign citizen. Refuse to register your car, refuse to pay taxes, refuse to educate your kids, refuse to buy insurance. Hang a little cardboard sign on your rear window, and then when you get pulled over for it go ahead and get rowdy. That my friend is when you will unfortunately see force applied. Just do everyone else a favor and don't get anyone else hurt with your paranoid delusions, to include your family if all possible. So leave your children at home and the wife and take back your money as others have said on here.

I'll cut to the end. You'll lose. You will be hurt at the very least. You can instead do like the other 99% of intelligent guys on here and focus on voting or participating in the political process to actually PEACEFULLY change things. That way you'll not be just chalked up as another guy who went nuts and accomplished nothing. Instead you can be part of a group that actually gets back rights and helps everyone.

Click to expand...

The fact that violent physical force can be used by state agents to collect tribute is more that enough to have 99% of folks pay their tribute unto Caesar. You see a system that enables change. I read the Constitution and see no change in sight, unless the 16th amendment is repealed. There is a route to change. You are a state agent and have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo.

Beretta92FSLady said:

Stand by your so-called Principle, that it is Theft...refuse to pay Taxes.

I will pick up where you left off in your post: If Taxation is a threat against you, either by the State, or a Person, defend yourself; you are within your Constitutional Right to defend yourself. You have asserted that your life is a stake if you don't pay taxes...defend yourself, Patriot.

If you feel like you're being threatened with your life by not paying Property Taxes for Public Schools, then defend yourself.

If you don't like paying taxes the disassociate yourself from the Fabric of Society, and live as a hermit in the mountains; build yourself a log cabin, don't purchase anything manufactured by Modern Society.--become that Autonomous Man that Walden, and many like him have had wet dreams about becoming...you social creature, you!

Click to expand...

Evasion.

I propose the original response, and put the burden up you. If it isn't theft go take it yourself.

Your arguments fail on a another level too, in comprehending all that I wrote, I have an innate sense of self preservation I know that failing to comply will mean I die. Why! because you won't come collect it yourself you will use the violence and the power of the state to do it for you.

Your understanding of society is based on a socialistic ideology that confuses society with government. Society is simply people living and working and associating with each other. I have no desire to separate my self from society I love people I love associating with people working for people honestly earning my living by providing services for people, honestly paying for my wants, desires and needs by then voluntarily engaging in more association and trades of services.

Oh Primus, you truly are entertaining.....you do nothing to refute my orignal post yet continue with your fallacious arguments that have been debunked several times.....

Primus said:

Why are you so terrified of the .gov? We can't make you any less paranoid or fearful. You see the threat of force in EVERYTHING. No matter how many examples we give, you just keep going back to it.

Click to expand...

Why do you love the government so much, why do you have to persist on ad hominem attacks based on ridiculous assumptions that doesn't counter anything I said.

I don't see the threat of force in EVERYTHING, I see the threat of force in government, it is the only power government has it has been pointed out and proved to you. Of course you work for government and off of the property stolen from others.

The taxes thing... I already showed examples of dudes owing thousands (hundreds) of dollars and NEVER GETTING SHOT and only sometimes ARRESTED.

Click to expand...

You have done no such thing what you have asserted is because people capitualte and don't die there was no force. You thinking an arrest isn't use of force is just plain unintelligent whether that is purposeful or obtuseness is on you.

Just be a soverign citizen. Refuse to register your car, refuse to pay taxes, refuse to educate your kids, refuse to buy insurance. Hang a little cardboard sign on your rear window, and then when you get pulled over for it go ahead and get rowdy. That my friend is when you will unfortunately see force applied. Just do everyone else a favor and don't get anyone else hurt with your paranoid delusions, to include your family if all possible. So leave your children at home and the wife and take back your money as others have said on here.

Click to expand...

More fallacy argument, and then make my point. LOL... by tacit admission of the force that would be applied for refusal to comply to your statist ideologies.
I am not and have no desire to be part of the group that call themselves Soveriegn citizens. Your insinuation that I am paranoid and delusional for pointing out the facts of what is happening reminds me a lot of Regimes who would lock up dissenters because they must be crazy for not supporting Communism,Fascism, Socialism ...etc.

I'll cut to the end. You'll lose. You will be hurt at the very least. You can instead do like the other 99% of intelligent guys on here and focus on voting or participating in the political process to actually PEACEFULLY change things. That way you'll not be just chalked up as another guy who went nuts and accomplished nothing. Instead you can be part of a group that actually gets back rights and helps everyone.

Click to expand...

Again this shows your mental attitude in your not so subtle cheering on and support of the violence that would be bestowed upon people who disagree with your jingoistic nationalistic attitude. I reiterate do you even read what you write, by trying to call other peoples intelligence into question while displaying the mental capabilities of a chimp? Your assertions that I am violent for speaking my mind and pointing out things you have yet to refute you are wising violence upon me. What group prey tell have gotten back rights for everyone?

So ok Mr. internet tough guy, if you don't feel it's not theft and violence you volunteer to go collect it without your fellow costumed state agents. I doubt you will.

Primus said:

And the "threat of force to carry out force" as ALWAYS existed. Since the first damn day cave men got into a group (or God made A&E) there was SOME kind of .gov. ALWAYS. And what has the .gov ALWAYS done? Slapped you when you did something wrong. For the 100th time, our .gov is better then anything thats been before it. Can it get better? Yes. Definitely, much better. But do we have to spout off about violence because we are pissed we can't OC in WAL-MART? Really?

Click to expand...

Jingoism. Not up on much history but state propaganda. The claim the best that ever was.....ha.

Do you guys (just the few that whole heartedly agree with the OP) really think your plights are ANYTHING like what our FFs went through? Your pissed you have to pay taxes, even though you get a Rep you can change. Even though you can SEE what they are spending, even though you can call or write a letter or picket on their front step. We seperated because the dudes that ran our country were a million miles away. And they just passed whatever law he wanted. Then sent dudes over here to sleep in your house, molest your wife, eat your food, then hang you or throw you in jail if you didn't pay taxes. THOSE were patriots. THEY had it rough. They had every reason to be pissed and want to fight.

Click to expand...

The so called FF's didn't have has much taxes and as much invasion of their lives than what your government does now. Your ignorance of history and your separation of facts from reality. The so called colonist would go and break you out of jail for being jailed for not paying taxes. Have you not heard of salutory neglect, they would literally tear down and destroy the houses of those who enforced taxes or other laws that were minuscule compared to what you enforce today.

Some guys today just sound like whiny little girls and have NO IDEA what a really jacked up .gov is. Have NO IDEA what oppression really is. Have no idea what real threat of violence is. I could waste all night listing all kinds of awful atrocities that other countries have done and still do, but it's not worth my time because you'll never see anything besides your own greed (what else is not wanting to contribute money?).

Click to expand...

And some guys will wear their rose colored glasses in their worship of the state, while they eagerly promote and partake in a violent government.
Greed? Hahahahahahahah it's greedy to want to keep what you earned yet not greedy to take what you didnt'?

I sincerely apologize to everyone else for the rant. I just can only take this Soverign stuff for so long. They take away from the real patriots and belittle our founding fathers by even trying to compare themselves. We have some crappy laws. So lets use the system and fix them instead of just blowing smoke.

Click to expand...

LOL....."real patriots" You really do believe this shite don't you? Are you foaming at the mouth?

Your unsubstantiated assertions that I am just blowing smoke shows your ignorance of me (and what I am doing to change things, or maybe you do you just hate it) as a person and your religious like adherence to the worship of the state willing to paint anybody who doesn't partake in your personal and state accepted ritual as a heretic. All you posts have done is show that you have little real working knowledge of any history, what the "FF's stood for, the constitution, or logic. It also shows your disdain at people exercising their right to freely speak their mind, I think it is because you truly realize this is what is the utmost danger to your precious ideology.

Oddly enough this thread wasn't directed at you or inspired by you, it was a statement by another poster and a culmination of political arguments I have had with others who want to rationalize the theft of someones living.

It seems you are perfectly fine, someone looses their home because they can't afford to pay property tax, you are fine that someone be sent to jail and their family impoverished because someone decided buying clothing for their children is more important than paying you for your service, you find it perfectly acceptable that someone has no savings for their old age and must become a burden upon their families or the state because they were not allowed to make enough to save up. To me that is immoral.

OC for ME said:

The fact that violent physical force can be used by state agents to collect tribute is more that enough to have 99% of folks pay their tribute unto Caesar. You see a system that enables change. I read the Constitution and see no change in sight, unless the 16th amendment is repealed. There is a route to change. You are a state agent and have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo.

Click to expand...

+1 He admitted his agenda.

Nightmare said:

I was reared with the understanding that it was an American's patriotic duty to avoid all taxes possible.

Click to expand...

+1

I wasn't reared that way welfare mom, I struggled to make my way out of that lifestyle the state seems intent on putting me back there.