Stop and ID?

luv_jeeps · May 20, 2011

I have been doing a bit more reading on Mitchie lately, and was just brushing up on CRS 16-3-103.

Although the law seems very clear on the surface:

16-3-103. Stopping of suspect.

(1) A peace officer may stop any person who he reasonably suspects is committing, has committed, or is about to commit a crime and may require him to give his name and address, identification if available, and an explanation of his actions. A peace officer shall not require any person who is stopped pursuant to this section to produce or divulge such person's social security number. The stopping shall not constitute an arrest.

(2) When a peace officer has stopped a person for questioning pursuant to this section and reasonably suspects that his personal safety requires it, he may conduct a pat-down search of that person for weapons.

There are a LOT of annotations listed where the Courts have said it's ok to make stops and ask.
Here's a couple.....

Limited, temporary detention permissible though no probable cause to arrest exists. A police officer may in appropriate circumstances and in an appropriate manner approach a person for purposes of investigation of possible criminal behavior even though there is no probable cause for arrest. People v. Lucero, 182 Colo. 39, 511 P.2d 468 (1973); People v. Martineau, 185 Colo. 194, 523 P.2d 126 (1974).

In certain circumstances a police officer having less than probable cause to arrest may stop an individual for identification purposes and not violate the fourth amendment prohibition against unreasonable search and seizure. People v. Mascarenas, 726 P.2d 644 (Colo. 1986).

Police officers may make a limited stop on less than probable cause. People v. Montoya, 185 Colo. 299, 524 P.2d 76 (1974).

And for full disclosure, there are also some that state more of the opposite, where it's NOT ok to do this, or the definition is more clearly spelled out.

An investigatory stop implicates a seizure that is based on less than probable cause and so it must be brief in duration, limited in scope, and narrow in purpose. People v. Tottenhoff, 691 P.2d 340 (Colo. 1984); Outlaw v. People, 17 P.3d 150 (Colo. 2001).

As I more frequently (especially as the weather warms) find myself OC, I'd be interested in what everyone's thoughts are. I understand that the law is spelled out pretty clear, but......

Fallschirjmäger · May 21, 2011

of investigation of possible criminal behavior even though there is no probable cause for arrest.

... possible criminal behavior means "I have a reasonable, articulable suspicion that ya doin' wrong"

Police officers may make a limited stop on less than probable cause. People v. Montoya, 185 Colo. 299, 524 P.2d 76 (1974).

Again, the step right before having probable cause to arrest is to reasonably suspect that crime is afoot.

Basically, what the courts seem to be saying, is that IF there is a reasonable, articulable suspicion of a crime, an officer is authorized by law to conduct an investigation to determine if that suspicion is correct. If such suspicions are confirmed then there is probable cause that a crime has occurred and an arrest is warranted.

darylendicott · May 21, 2011

I feel that if we are given a permit to carry a handgun openly then perhaps we should have some sort of identifying mark via a badge or pin so when an officer sees it they know we're one of the good guys and not have to stop us.

ZackL · May 21, 2011

I would like to add that in Colorado a properly holstered firearm in plain view is not a reasonable cause for alarm/suspicion. Now, if you mix in an odd demeanor or running from the sound of car alarms, I would say that it would give them a reason to stop you and conduct a further investigation. Reasonable articulable suspicion is just that, a suspicion that there has or will be a crime committed and that the person being stopped is in some way involved. However, it has been proven through the court system, here and elsewhere, that a lot of discretion must be used when police use this to stop someone.

JamesCanby · May 21, 2011

darylendicott said:
I feel that if we are given a permit to carry a handgun openly then perhaps we should have some sort of identifying mark via a badge or pin so when an officer sees it they know we're one of the good guys and not have to stop us.

Unworkable. How long do you think it would take for such a "badge or pin" to become generally available (maybe even on eBay) to anyone who wanted to delay suspicion that the person might not have a "permit?" Think a LEO would be convinced by a "badge or pin" that everything is "ok" and no further investigation is needed?

JamesB · May 21, 2011

darylendicott said:
I feel that if we are given a permit to carry a handgun openly then perhaps we should have some sort of identifying mark via a badge or pin so when an officer sees it they know we're one of the good guys and not have to stop us.

We are! It's called a holster.

I have yet to see any gang menber from any gang ever use one.
(now if only we could get the boys in blue to recognize this fact.)

Badger Johnson · May 21, 2011

JamesB said:
We are! It's called a holster.

I have yet to see any gang menber from any gang ever use one.
(now if only we could get the boys in blue to recognize this fact.)

Don't make any mistake, the 'boys in blue' are WELL aware of this fact. They hassle people who OC because of other issues, and not because they think they are felons or are about to commit a crime.

MKEgal · May 21, 2011

BTW, welcome to the forum.

darylendicott said:
perhaps we should have some sort of identifying mark via a badge or pin so when an officer sees it they know we're one of the good guys and not have to stop us.

They don't have to stop us anyway. They choose to.
And as others have pointed out, criminals don't OC & don't use holsters.

Here are PDFs of an FBI study published in AUG06 called "Violent Encounters: A Study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation's Law Enforcement Officers", in which they conclude (among other things) that criminals don't OC & practically never use holsters.
http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2007/08/violent-encounters.html
IIRC, those assertions come in chapter 4, but don't hold me to that. It's been a while since I read it.

since9 · May 23, 2011

Good link, MKEgal - thanks!

Kingfish · May 23, 2011

darylendicott said:
I feel that if we are given a permit to carry a handgun openly then perhaps we should have some sort of identifying mark via a badge or pin so when an officer sees it they know we're one of the good guys and not have to stop us.

How about a tattoo on the forehead?

RandallFlagg · May 23, 2011

MKEgal said:
BTW, welcome to the forum.

They don't have to stop us anyway. They choose to.
And as others have pointed out, criminals don't OC & don't use holsters.

Here are PDFs of an FBI study published in AUG06 called "Violent Encounters: A Study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation's Law Enforcement Officers", in which they conclude (among other things) that criminals don't OC & practically never use holsters.
http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2007/08/violent-encounters.html
IIRC, those assertions come in chapter 4, but don't hold me to that. It's been a while since I read it.

Just yesterday I had to explain this to the guys at work. It was pretty easy, really:
"How many criminals have their guns in open holsters before walking into the 7-11 or the bank to rob it?"

since9 · May 27, 2011

RandallFlagg said:
Just yesterday I had to explain this to the guys at work. It was pretty easy, really:
"How many criminals have their guns in open holsters before walking into the 7-11 or the bank to rob it?"

Do you work at 7-11?

It's one of the on-going discussions I have with local folks with respect to who's really a threat to them and who's not. They know me personally, so they know I'm not a threat, per, se, yet I can still sense there on edge.

Dang. I've been getting gas from them for nearly two years and they're still "on edge."

What am I'm doing wrong? They've been robbed once by armed criminals throughout this period, while I've been getting from them nearly exclusively?

Are criminals just THAT good?

Do WE need to ramp it up?

If so, I've responses for 37 suggestions for both OCer, CCers, as well as each and every business organization in and around Colorado.

If so, we'll ramp it up. Whatever it takes.

RandallFlagg · May 27, 2011

since9 said:
Do you work at 7-11?

It's one of the on-going discussions I have with local folks with respect to who's really a threat to them and who's not. They know me personally, so they know I'm not a threat, per, se, yet I can still sense there on edge.

Dang. I've been getting gas from them for nearly two years and they're still "on edge."

What am I'm doing wrong? They've been robbed once by armed criminals throughout this period, while I've been getting from them nearly exclusively?

Are criminals just THAT good?

Do WE need to ramp it up?

If so, I've responses for 37 suggestions for both OCer, CCers, as well as each and every business organization in and around Colorado.

If so, we'll ramp it up. Whatever it takes.

Naaa. I work at Coors.
It seems that I've been the, "Go to," guy there when it comes to weapons, laws and politics.

OldCurlyWolf · May 29, 2011

RandallFlagg said:
Naaa. I work at Coors.
It seems that I've been the, "Go to," guy there when it comes to weapons, laws and politics.

At least where you work they make more than just one decent beer. Bud's only decent beer is Michelob. :lol:

mahkagari · May 30, 2011

ZackL said:
I would like to add that in Colorado a properly holstered firearm in plain view is not a reasonable cause for alarm/suspicion. Now, if you mix in an odd demeanor or running from the sound of car alarms, I would say that it would give them a reason to stop you and conduct a further investigation. Reasonable articulable suspicion is just that, a suspicion that there has or will be a crime committed and that the person being stopped is in some way involved.

Say....by walking a neighborhood with accomplices, one of whom has an outstanding warrant, knocking on doors seeing who is not home and gathering other information about neighbors from those are?

Kingfish · Jun 1, 2011

OldCurlyWolf said:
At least where you work they make more than just one decent beer. Bud's only decent beer is Michelob. :lol:

With massive amounts of outstanding beer in Colorado, why anyone would drink anything from the macro brewers is beyond me.

since9 · Jun 7, 2011

Kingfish said:
With massive amounts of outstanding beer in Colorado, why anyone would drink anything from the macro brewers is beyond me.

Sure, like my favorite beer pretty much anywhere, but it's made here in Colorado: Blue Moon.

Of course it's made by Coors, not exactly a microbrewery...

RandallFlagg · Jun 7, 2011

since9 said:
Sure, like my favorite beer pretty much anywhere, but it's made here in Colorado: Blue Moon.

Of course it's made by Coors, not exactly a microbrewery...

I'm kinda partial to Grand Cru, myself. Too bad it's only made in the Winter months.

JamesB · Jun 7, 2011

since9 said:
Sure, like my favorite beer pretty much anywhere, but it's made here in Colorado: Blue Moon.

Of course it's made by Coors, not exactly a microbrewery...

I would say come on up for the brewery tour and enjoy some for free where it's guaranteed to be the freshest.

I would say that except that Coors is private property and they say no guns allowed. No free beer for me.

JoeSparky · Jun 7, 2011

darylendicott said:
I feel that if we are given a permit to carry a handgun openly then perhaps we should have some sort of identifying mark via a badge or pin so when an officer sees it they know we're one of the good guys and not have to stop us.

It has been done before... IN Germany, they only had the Jews wear gold stars. It only ended with a few MILLION exterminated!

Are you sure you want to go there with this?

Stop and ID?

Campaign Veteran

Active member

New member

Regular Member

Activist Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Campaign Veteran

Regular Member

Regular Member

Campaign Veteran

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Campaign Veteran

Regular Member

Regular Member

Centurion