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Seattle officer shoots man with knife

Dave Workman

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Furor in Seattle: Did man die for whittling, or posing a clear threat?



"..Perhaps not since the David Walker incident in which Walker was fatally shot by a Seattle officer after allegedly pulling a robbery, and then prancing and walking down a sidewalk – ignoring demands by several cops to drop the knife he held – has the public been fixated on a “knife versus gun” situation..."

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-...an-die-for-whittling-or-posing-a-clear-threat

Or try this:

http://tinyurl.com/29yng3x
 

heresolong

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Would it be wrong of me to point out that it is impossible to shoot someone with a knife? You have to shoot them with a gun. Or am I just grammar obsessed? :)
 
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amlevin

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Feb 16, 2007
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Maybe Seattle should stop equipping their officers with Tasers and other Less than Lethal weapons if they aren't going to use them. Either that or some serious training on the proper level(s) of response.

Don't know and wasn't there but it does sound like this might have taken a different direction than the officer shooting this guy.

In the 60's I worked in Seattle and my job brought me in close contact with both Police and Street People (back them we called them Bums). Most were too stupid from their Ripple or MD 20/20 to understand anything you said to them. They also had a tendency to get real friendly and wanted to either give you a hug or shake their hand. Officers developed a technique of putting one end their baton in the middle of their chest as a "spacer" and pushed them as far away as their arm and baton would allow. Kept them from getting too close. At that time they were just "pickled stupid" and not all that dangerous.
 
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j2l3

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Seattle, Washington, USA
Maybe Seattle should stop equipping their officers with Tasers and other Less than Lethal weapons if they aren't going to use them. Either that or some serious training on the proper level(s) of response.

Most street people wear to many clothes for a taser to be effective. They require contact with the skin. Many layers of clothes or a heavy jacket will make sure a taser isn't deployed, as it will be a waste of time.
 
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Vandal

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Dave mentioned it, the Tueller Principle holds very true for both LE and civilians when dealing with a knife threat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

Should be interesting to see if the guy was actually whittling, carving or presenting a threat to the officer. I'll form more of an opinion as I gather more info. Now I'll sit back and let the cop-hate fly.
 

joejoejoe

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Would it be wrong of me to point out that it is impossible to shoot someone with a knife? You have to shoot them with a gun. Or am I just grammar obsessed? :)

"Sally asked Jane for her keys" OMG I hate bad grammar!

On topic, however, are all officers told to just shoot no matter what? Seriously? Any officer who kills a man when other options were on the table should lose their job as an officer. I understand that if someone felt their life was at risk and shot. That is a citizen's response. A police officer should be trained to know other options, and if they cannot handle the situation no better than a citizen, then they should go back to being a citizen.

Joe~
 

Vandal

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Joe,
Ignoring your grammar issue, there are times when the officer doesn't have time to use a less-lethal option. If everything was perfect then sure, go through the levels of force as you're trained. That said things on the street happen much faster than in training and they never go down as planned. Any of the cops I know will draw a gun to face a knife, not a Taser. Tasers are for encounters with the unarmed IMO.
Many of us use knives as a tool on a daily basis for whatever reason. Don't forget that those same knives can be used as a lethal weapon and can seriously mess up another human being.

Don't forget a taser can kill too, as the deceased in Piece County found out today....
 
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k.rollin

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Feb 18, 2010
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Bellingham, Washington, USA
Most street people wear to many clothes for a taser to be effective. They require contact with the skin. Many layers of clothes or a heavy jacket will make sure a taser isn't deployed, as it will be a waste of time.

You do know that the probes of the Taser M26 are capable of penetrating up to two inches of clothing, and that with the XP cartridges, which weigh much more than the standard probes (4.1 grams vs 1.6 grams), that capability is further insured? I'm not saying that the officer should have used a Taser over his pistol, just offering a bit of information.
 

OrangeIsTrouble

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arentol

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Apr 10, 2009
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Kent, Washington, USA
Dave mentioned it, the Tueller Principle holds very true for both LE and civilians when dealing with a knife threat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

Should be interesting to see if the guy was actually whittling, carving or presenting a threat to the officer. I'll form more of an opinion as I gather more info. Now I'll sit back and let the cop-hate fly.

Draw your firearm, aim it, and be prepared to shoot.

Now Tueller is out the window, as it takes only 0.3-0.5 seconds to react, not 1.5. An attacker can probably only cover about 4 feet in 0.5 seconds (not 1/3rd of ~20 feet, or 7 feet, because you have to build up to full speed).
 

arentol

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Like everyone here I don't know what actually happened in this case, but I would point out that if the mans knife blade was 3.5 inches or smaller, and there was no prior complaint about him doing something illegal with it (like a robbery or threatening someone), then the police officer had no legal reason to confront the man.

That doesn't mean the officer has no right to approach the man, but if he did so without RAS, then everything that followed was his own fault. Just like with OC of a firearm it is not he police's job to confront people just because they feel like it. Without RAS he should have just observed the guy for a while to make sure there was no reason to be concerned, and maybe made sure the guy knew he had been noticed.
 

joejoejoe

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That doesn't mean the officer has no right to approach the man, but if he did so without RAS, then everything that followed was his own fault. Just like with OC of a firearm it is not he police's job to confront people just because they feel like it. Without RAS he should have just observed the guy for a while to make sure there was no reason to be concerned, and maybe made sure the guy knew he had been noticed.

I agree. I don't know what led to the police officer approaching this man. I also don't know what led the officer to shoot the man. Did the guy with the knife lunge at him. The officer claimed he "felt threatened" by the man with the knife. I want to know what threats were issued. If it was the mere sight of a knife, then this man isn't fit to be an officer.

Could he use mace? Could he use a baton and hit the guy's hand over and over again? Does he have any self-defense training against a knife? Could he have at least shot the guy in the leg? It seems like he thought killing him was the only option. If the man with the knife made an advancement on him that seemed life-threatening (which is all perspective anyways), then OK. If he killed him because he wouldn't put the knife down...

Joe~
 

daddy4count

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May 11, 2010
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Seattle, Washington, USA
It is very easy, and very bad form, to second guess decisions made by officers/agents/soldiers in the field.

A review is necessary to maintain a balance and keep the peace keepers in check... however, none of us or the reporters were on site or witnessed the events.

Does it sound ridiculous? Yeah, but that's what sells news...

While there are exceptions to every rule, I do not believe the police make a habit of shooting first and asking questions later. The paperwork alone is enough to make them second guess using lethal force! ;)
 
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