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Police encounter at softball game

ManInBlack

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
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1,551
Location
SW Idaho
What if 1 more person in the crowd will OC now, because they just learned that it is legal. I consider that success worth a little contact.

How about the police do their jobs and educate the complainer on the legality of OC, rather than "contact" me in any form? Thanks, but I'll pass on being placed in an unwanted and potentially life-threatening situation through close proximity to the State's armed enforcers just so the sheeple can learn about their rights. If they care, they can take the time to educate themselves, like I did.
 
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Merlin

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2008
Messages
487
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
How about the police do their jobs and educate the complainer on the legality of OC, rather than "contact" me in any form? Thanks, but I'll pass on being placed in an unwanted and potentially life-threatening situation through close proximity to the State's armed enforcers just so the sheeple can learn about their rights. If they care, they can take the time to educate themselves, like I did.

So you are willing to exercise your rights, but not help defend them? This is the kind of mindset that keeps OC a minority. Sure, you CAN disavow any responsibility for educating your fellow man, but ultimately, in the long run, does that serve you?

Imagine if our parents and grandparents had been activists in this area, where would be today?

Well, now YOU are the current generation, and you have the chance to hand down an OC-friendly society to your offspring (and mine). You can choose to be a part of the solution, or choose to stand on the sidelines. That is up to you entirely. I just think it's a shame to choose the latter, because we have a real opportunity to push this thing over the tipping point. It feels close.

There was a video posted in the last few months (can't recall who) involving a contact at the flamingo DMV. Seeing that video inspired me to be more active/vocal in this. Places that I used to either not carry, or would CC, I now OC at . (See my post about the CERT class) If that contact hadn't happened, I might not be as outwardly OC as I am now.

United we stand.
 

Merlin

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Jul 31, 2008
Messages
487
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
just so the sheeple can learn about their rights. If they care, they can take the time to educate themselves, like I did.

One further note. I forgot to use the word "elitism".

My approach is just the opposite. I welcome anyone that has questions about OC. I am happy to help educate them. Which approach do you think will help secure/further your 2a rights in the coming years, elitism, or inclusiveness?

In a democracy, majority rules. We are the minority. One great way to secure/further the acceptance of 2a right? Become the majority. To do that, you have to recruit. To recruit, you have to be approachable, not standoff-ish. Sure, you are entitled, and if that's your chosen approach, I will just have to agree to disagree with you, and be disappointed with your decision to not be a more active proponent of what you claim to hold dear.

United We Stand.
 

The Big Guy

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
1,966
Location
Waco, TX
One further note. I forgot to use the word "elitism".

My approach is just the opposite. I welcome anyone that has questions about OC. I am happy to help educate them. Which approach do you think will help secure/further your 2a rights in the coming years, elitism, or inclusiveness?

In a democracy, majority rules. We are the minority. One great way to secure/further the acceptance of 2a right? Become the majority. To do that, you have to recruit. To recruit, you have to be approachable, not standoff-ish. Sure, you are entitled, and if that's your chosen approach, I will just have to agree to disagree with you, and be disappointed with your decision to not be a more active proponent of what you claim to hold dear.

United We Stand.

We are a Republic. In a true democracy the majority rules at the expense of the minority (us). In our system of government the rights of the minority are protected from the votes of the majority, or that's how it is supposed to work. It's that pesky Constitution thing....


TBG
 

ManInBlack

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
1,551
Location
SW Idaho
One further note. I forgot to use the word "elitism".

My approach is just the opposite. I welcome anyone that has questions about OC. I am happy to help educate them. Which approach do you think will help secure/further your 2a rights in the coming years, elitism, or inclusiveness?

In a democracy, majority rules. We are the minority. One great way to secure/further the acceptance of 2a right? Become the majority. To do that, you have to recruit. To recruit, you have to be approachable, not standoff-ish. Sure, you are entitled, and if that's your chosen approach, I will just have to agree to disagree with you, and be disappointed with your decision to not be a more active proponent of what you claim to hold dear.

United We Stand.

1. There is nothing wrong with elitism. While all men are created equal in terms of natural rights, they are not created equal in ability. The Founders recognized this, and had minimum qualifications for voting.
2. This is not a democracy; it is a constitutional republic. Great political thinkers from the Greeks to the Founders considered democracy to be the worst form of government, precisely because an ignorant and/or mislead majority can run roughshod over the rights of the majority.
3. I do not shy away from 2A activism. I speak to many, many people about open carrying, as I do it daily. This weekend, I will be working the Idaho Open Carry table at the Boise gun show. What I object to is your contention that the possibility that some ignorant sheep might be educated justifies me having to encounter armed strangers, wearing the State's costume jewelry on their chests, tasked to find citizens who have broken rules and imprison or tax them. More than occasionally, these armed revenue agents become overzealous and injure or kill citizens who defy them.

No thanks. My life, liberty, and property are not worth the education of some sheep, whose response to the knowledge is just as likely to be, "That's legal?!? What the hell, there oughta be a law!!!"
 

Merlin

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2008
Messages
487
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
1. There is nothing wrong with elitism. While all men are created equal in terms of natural rights, they are not created equal in ability. The Founders recognized this, and had minimum qualifications for voting.

True I suppose, but not exactly what I meant.


2. This is not a democracy; it is a constitutional republic. Great political thinkers from the Greeks to the Founders considered democracy to be the worst form of government, precisely because an ignorant and/or mislead majority can run roughshod over the rights of the majority.

True, I guess I misspoke. But nonetheless, honey>vinegar was I think my point. Why make enemies of sheeple that could be friends.

3. I do not shy away from 2A activism. I speak to many, many people about open carrying, as I do it daily. This weekend, I will be working the Idaho Open Carry table at the Boise gun show. What I object to is your contention that the possibility that some ignorant sheep might be educated justifies me having to encounter armed strangers, wearing the State's costume jewelry on their chests, tasked to find citizens who have broken rules and imprison or tax them. More than occasionally, these armed revenue agents become overzealous and injure or kill citizens who defy them.

I'm glad to hear that, and I thank you for what you DO do.

justifies me having to encounter armed strangers

Not saying it justifies, more of a "have you considered". I was pretty clear about saying that the contact is NOT justified, just that you can use it to your advantage.

No thanks. My life, liberty, and property are not worth the education of some sheep


Couldn't have been said better by MLK himself.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that point. My life, liberty, and property ARE worth the progress of my agenda. I just have to balance how much progress I can stand in any one day.
 

Merlin

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2008
Messages
487
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
We are a Republic. In a true democracy the majority rules at the expense of the minority (us). In our system of government the rights of the minority are protected from the votes of the majority, or that's how it is supposed to work. It's that pesky Constitution thing....


TBG

Right you are. If only it reliably worked that way. :)
 

bc.cruiser

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
786
Location
Fayetteville NC
Huh!?! Is tucked into pants gangster style different from Mexican carry? I thought the two synonymous. If not, please advise.

My point here was that the OP had not stated his method of carry. The cops claimed they were responding to a report of someone carrying "Mexican"; no evidence that they did not get exactly that call. It wasn't until after a direct question about it, did the OP state his gun was holstered.

I quoted you as part of my response to Venator who was using YOUR post as proof of how the OP carried.
 

bc.cruiser

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
786
Location
Fayetteville NC
Read the second post by citizen. It was pretty clear to me he was not carrying MS.

Citizen is NOT the OP. Said OP did not define his method of carry until asked.

So what we have is: OP carried in a holster
Cops claimed a report of someone carrying w/o holster (Mexican). Maybe/maybe not;
we have no way of knowing within this post.
HPD explained their presence to OP, apparently went no further, and left. I agree with
Merlin on the LEO actions.

Are we done here?:cool:

I gotta go back to NC now. Got a range day Saturday. Carry careful, but carry.
 

Merlin

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Joined
Jul 31, 2008
Messages
487
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
Please don't compare me to a philandering, plagiarizing Communist (and that's being polite).

That's exactly why I used it as an example. Whether you agree with his agenda or not, you can't deny the success he achieved using the approach that he did.

Of course, to argue with myself for a moment, the same could be said about Hitler. His approach, while successful (for awhile, at least), is not suggested, though.

Even people whose policies and agenda you disagree with, can still be learned from.
 

Eeyore

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2007
Messages
551
Location
the meanest city in the stupidest state
I totally get the argument that there is no reason for contact. That's true, there is no reason for contact. But that doesn't mean that contact is a fully negative thing. I welcome a contact that affirms what I am doing, and exhibits some respect for doing so. Is there no such thing as a positive contact? To me, positive contacts are an excellent way to gauge the success rate of our agenda. Not only for our benefit, but for the benefit of others. In this case the PR just learned something. As did all the people within earshot of her. What if 1 more person in the crowd will OC now, because they just learned that it is legal. I consider that success worth a little contact. AS LONG AS IT IS RESPECTFUL. That part can't be stressed enough.

I gotta agree with Merlin on this one. The goal of this group is to educate the populace that OC is legal/normal/safe, is it not? For nervous sheep, seeing police approach an OCer, have a polite conversation that ends with a handshake and no change in behavior by said OCer illustrates that everything was fine. If said interaction occurs in full view of a bleacher-full of people, well that strikes me as being education in bulk. Very efficient.

On the other hand, as others have pointed out, such situations create the opportunity for ignorant/overzealous LEO to do what they do. And seeing the OCer thrown to the ground, cuffed, and hauled away would only serve to reinforce incorrect assumptions about OC's legality.

To invoke some cliches, these situations present both danger and opportunity. Make lemonade.
 

ManInBlack

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
1,551
Location
SW Idaho
Make lemonade indeed.

When an open carrier is finally shot and killed by overzealous police officers who refuse to obey the law (Philadelphia, perhaps?), I really hope you tell the family that.

Hell, tell Erik Scott's family that.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
When an open carrier is finally shot and killed by overzealous police officers who refuse to obey the law (Philadelphia, perhaps?), I really hope you tell the family that.

Hell, tell Erik Scott's family that.

Don't see that "make lemonade" in any way refers to over zealous law enforcement or harm coming to a LAC.

The thought, in this case of electing to chose a more beneficial response, refers to educating as many people as possible as opposed to not taking that effort.
 

ManInBlack

Regular Member
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Jul 2, 2006
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1,551
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SW Idaho
Don't see that "make lemonade" in any way refers to over zealous law enforcement or harm coming to a LAC.

The thought, in this case of electing to chose a more beneficial response, refers to educating as many people as possible as opposed to not taking that effort.

Merlin said:
My life, liberty, and property ARE worth the progress of my agenda.

Any time a citizen comes in close proximity to police officers, the risk of a reduction in his quality of life has increased, however incrementally. I don't believe I should be in the position of being killed, assaulted and kidnapped, taxed, or in any other way interfered with by those who wear costume jewelry on their chests. The education of some nearby sheeple who, as I said, may just as easily PUSH for a law after learning O.C. is legal, does not justify my interaction with the State's enforcers, nor does it make the risk to my life, liberty, or property somehow "worth it."
 

Grapeshot

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May 21, 2006
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Merlin said:


Any time a citizen comes in close proximity to police officers, the risk of a reduction in his quality of life has increased, however incrementally. I don't believe I should be in the position of being killed, assaulted and kidnapped, taxed, or in any other way interfered with by those who wear costume jewelry on their chests. The education of some nearby sheeple who, as I said, may just as easily PUSH for a law after learning O.C. is legal, does not justify my interaction with the State's enforcers, nor does it make the risk to my life, liberty, or property somehow "worth it."

You take his replies out of sequence/context and give them meaning not intended - he already clarified the point in post #54.

It would seem that you do not view education of the public with the same merit that others do. What is the flip side of making lemonade (making the best of a situation)? Making it worse? Why would anyone wish to bring that on themselves?

When we chose to see all LEOs in a negative light and propagate only the extreme negative, then we are in fact LEO bashing.
 

DVC

Regular Member
Joined
May 12, 2010
Messages
1,185
Location
City? Who wants to live in a CITY?, Nevada, USA
The bottom line is that we must epitomize Heinlein's saying that "An armed society is a polite society."

The way to win in any political argument is to get the uncommitted to see you as someone that they can identify with and respect, thus your position is one that they should consider supporting.

When the OCer "out-polites" the hoplophobe, every observer sees who is and is not "reasonable like me." When you are confronted by the police, and the contact becomes casual and friendly, the observer then takes a more jaundiced view of whoever it was to thought that there was a problem.
 

ManInBlack

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Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
1,551
Location
SW Idaho
When we chose to see all LEOs in a negative light and propagate only the extreme negative, then we are in fact LEO bashing.

I full recognize that it is only the 95% of law enforcers that give the 5% who are peace officers a bad name... :rolleyes:
 
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PistolPackingMomma

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
1,884
Location
SC
I see a solution to both sides being presented; instead of having the police approach the Ocer, why not have the police observe, note there is nothing to investigate, and approach (but not the Ocer) the citizen who called? Surely then the citizen could still be educated to the legality of OC, and be more likely to believe it when they hear it directly from the horse's mouth.
 
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