Purchase law, under 21

DJEEPER · Nov 23, 2011

As an employee at a place that sells firearms, if you even mention that it will be for someone else, we will decline to sell and report it to all surrounding stores. Its policy for our safety (from the wrath of the ATF)

You buy it for yourself, then decide later, after the transaction, that you want to pass it on to your legal-to-own wife.

Grapeshot · Nov 23, 2011

DJEEPER said:
As an employee at a place that sells firearms, if you even mention that it will be for someone else, we will decline to sell and report it to all surrounding stores. Its policy for our safety (from the wrath of the ATF)

You buy it for yourself, then decide later, after the transaction, that you want to pass it on to your legal-to-own wife.

While I understand the concern, just not to that degree.

Applying the rules that way induces the otherwise legal buyer to falsely file the forms if they are intend to gift the gun.

Refusing the sale for any reason is within bounds, BUT reporting to other stores such information could IMO expose your employer to potential liability - that seems one bridge too far. I've done nothing wrong and you would harm me? Seems like there is a very sticky wicket there.

carry for myself · Nov 23, 2011

Luckily in my state our two large firearms retailers are not too picky about who buys what with what. Only for whom. I frequently buy myself guns with my girlfriends credit cards, or she buys me guns with her cards, I buy her guns with my cards. As long as the person the gun is intended for fills out the paperwork they could care less haha.

Although I do recall one time when I brought my sister with me to ktp when I was picking up a millenium pro, and they haulted the sale on straw policy because she made a comment about how excited she was to shoot it. But the manager john fixed that quickly.

45acpForMe · Nov 23, 2011

DJEEPER said:
As an employee at a place that sells firearms,...

Since when did the bike shop start selling guns? I am going to have to pay it a visit now! :banana:

wylde007 · Nov 23, 2011

45acpForMe said:
Since when did the bike shop start selling guns? I am going to have to pay it a visit now! :banana:

Seconded.

peter nap · Nov 23, 2011

wylde007 said:
Seconded.

Never heard of Guns in Bars before?

45acpForMe · Nov 23, 2011

peter nap said:
Never heard of Guns in Bars before?

More like Guns in Frames. http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...ampton-Roads&p=1653067&viewfull=1#post1653067

They need to make an attachable holster like the water bottle holder.

wylde007 · Nov 23, 2011

peter nap said:
Never heard of Guns in Bars before?

What's a "bar"?

:monkey

peter nap · Nov 23, 2011

wylde007 said:
What's a "bar"?

:monkey

or

wylde007 · Nov 23, 2011

In Soviet Russia, bar hunts you!

DJEEPER · Nov 23, 2011

haha, you guys are a trip!

no this is a second job i picked up, besides the bike shop

altajava · Nov 23, 2011

Grapeshot said:
Some FFLs will refuse the sale if you and your money are not the sole actor in the transaction - have seen such a sign on the wall of at least one Richmond gun shop.

This is exactly what happened and thus prompted my OP.

KBCraig · Nov 23, 2011

user said:
No. It's not an illegal straw purchase unless she is legally prohibited from being in possession of a firearm.

Tsk-tsk, user... I expect better from you!

The legal status of the recipient does not determine whether a transaction is a straw purchase. If someone is perfectly legal to own, possess, and even purchase the firearm themselves, but a third party conducts the purchase for them on their behalf, it's a straw purchase.

From an ATF training page:

Generally straw purchasers are utilized because the actual purchaser is not eligible to conduct a transaction because they’re in one or more legally prohibited categories, such as being addicted to a controlled substance, being a felon, being underage, and so on.

However, a straw purchase occurs even when the actual purchaser is not a prohibited person. The crime committed is knowingly making a false statement on the Form 4473 indicating that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser, when this is not the case.

It is the person buying the gun who commits the offense, which is making a false statement (answering "Yes" to the question on the 4473 that asks, "Are you the actual buyer of this firearm?")

Grapeshot · Nov 23, 2011

KBCraig said:
Tsk-tsk, user... I expect better from you!

The legal status of the recipient does not determine whether a transaction is a straw purchase. If someone is perfectly legal to own, possess, and even purchase the firearm themselves, but a third party conducts the purchase for them on their behalf, it's a straw purchase.

From an ATF training page:

Generally straw purchasers are utilized because the actual purchaser is not eligible to conduct a transaction because they’re in one or more legally prohibited categories, such as being addicted to a controlled substance, being a felon, being underage, and so on.

However, a straw purchase occurs even when the actual purchaser is not a prohibited person. The crime committed is knowingly making a false statement on the Form 4473 indicating that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser, when this is not the case.

It is the person buying the gun who commits the offense, which is making a false statement (answering "Yes" to the question on the 4473 that asks, "Are you the actual buyer of this firearm?")

Not speaking for User, I think you misunderstand him completely.

If I fill out the form, pay for the gun and leave with the gun, I am the actual purchaser. What I do with it afterwards does not change those facts. If my intention was to gift it or sell it later, that does not change the fact that I am the actual purchaser.

TFred · Nov 24, 2011

KBCraig said:
Tsk-tsk, user... I expect better from you!

The legal status of the recipient does not determine whether a transaction is a straw purchase. If someone is perfectly legal to own, possess, and even purchase the firearm themselves, but a third party conducts the purchase for them on their behalf, it's a straw purchase.

From an ATF training page:

Generally straw purchasers are utilized because the actual purchaser is not eligible to conduct a transaction because they’re in one or more legally prohibited categories, such as being addicted to a controlled substance, being a felon, being underage, and so on.

However, a straw purchase occurs even when the actual purchaser is not a prohibited person. The crime committed is knowingly making a false statement on the Form 4473 indicating that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser, when this is not the case.

It is the person buying the gun who commits the offense, which is making a false statement (answering "Yes" to the question on the 4473 that asks, "Are you the actual buyer of this firearm?")

Do you really think a training page produced by the ATF is a better legal source than User?

The ATF thinks they're right, and they can certainly beat you about the head and body with the legal process all along the way, but if sufficient resources were available to push any legal question to the SCOTUS, I'd put my money on User every day of the week.

TFred

ETA: We've long observed the two "sample" purchases illustrated on the Form 4473, which support User's interpretation far more than what the ATF says in their training manual.

The simple problem with the ATF's desired view of a straw purchase is that it requires them to know with certainty what someone is going to do in the future. Until we live in the world of Minority Report, that is simply not possible.

KBCraig · Nov 25, 2011

Grapeshot said:
Not speaking for User, I think you misunderstand him completely.

If I fill out the form, pay for the gun and leave with the gun, I am the actual purchaser. What I do with it afterwards does not change those facts. If my intention was to gift it or sell it later, that does not change the fact that I am the actual purchaser.

What I responded to was the claim that, "It's not an illegal straw purchase unless she is legally prohibited from being in possession of a firearm." The end recipient being a prohibited person is not a factor in deciding whether or not it's a straw purchase. That would be a separate crime, of providing a firearm to a prohibited person.

TFred said:
Do you really think a training page produced by the ATF is a better legal source than User?

I have the greatest respect for User, and almost none for the ATF, but User stated a point of law without a cite to back him up. The people who investigate and prosecute the crime disagree with his interpretation, and they win in court.

MSC 45ACP · Nov 27, 2011

altajava said:
All window shopping, no range time yet. She chose a PX4 in 9 based on ergonomics, it felt good in her hand. Which is important. There may may have been a little "it looks nice" as well. When they started looking, he was leaning towards a .380 so I think they made a good choice.

This is OT, but still amusing...

I took my spousal unit to a gun show many years ago, she was looking at a few pistols and we were a few tables apart.
She came up to me and told me she found one that "felt good in her hands".
I followed her over to a table and she picked up a recently manufactured piece of Anti-Aircraft Artillery:
an Israeli Military Industries (IMI) 44 cal. Desert Eagle.
I looked at the $1,100 price tag and told her it was a little out of our price range.

peter nap · Nov 27, 2011

MSC 45ACP said:
an Israeli Military Industries (IMI) 44 cal. Desert Eagle.
I looked at the $1,100 price tag and told her it was a little out of our price range.

That's funny because mine too.
I was gonna let her buy it so I could keep it when she got tired of trying to find a purse to put it in.

She changed her mind though.

Marco · Nov 29, 2011

Tsk-tsk, ... I expect better from you!

KBCraig said:
Tsk-tsk, user... I expect better from you!

The legal status of the recipient does not determine whether a transaction is a straw purchase. If someone is perfectly legal to own, possess, and even purchase the firearm themselves, but a third party conducts the purchase for them on their behalf, it's a straw purchase.

From an ATF training page:

Generally straw purchasers are utilized because the actual purchaser is not eligible to conduct a transaction because they’re in one or more legally prohibited categories, such as being addicted to a controlled substance, being a felon, being underage, and so on.

However, a straw purchase occurs even when the actual purchaser is not a prohibited person. The crime committed is knowingly making a false statement on the Form 4473 indicating that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser, when this is not the case.

It is the person buying the gun who commits the offense, which is making a false statement (answering "Yes" to the question on the 4473 that asks, "Are you the actual buyer of this firearm?")

Fail!!!

Husband buys gun takes it home wife uses and keeps gun.. what crime?
NONE!!!!!!!!

KBCraig · Nov 29, 2011

Agent19 said:
KBCraig said:

Tsk-tsk, user... I expect better from you!

The legal status of the recipient does not determine whether a transaction is a straw purchase. If someone is perfectly legal to own, possess, and even purchase the firearm themselves, but a third party conducts the purchase for them on their behalf, it's a straw purchase.

From an ATF training page:

Generally straw purchasers are utilized because the actual purchaser is not eligible to conduct a transaction because they’re in one or more legally prohibited categories, such as being addicted to a controlled substance, being a felon, being underage, and so on.

However, a straw purchase occurs even when the actual purchaser is not a prohibited person. The crime committed is knowingly making a false statement on the Form 4473 indicating that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser, when this is not the case.

It is the person buying the gun who commits the offense, which is making a false statement (answering "Yes" to the question on the 4473 that asks, "Are you the actual buyer of this firearm?")

Click to expand...

Fail!!!

Husband buys gun takes it home wife uses and keeps gun.. what crime?
NONE!!!!!!!!

Yes, none.

Now, please go back and read what I actually said, and what I was actually responding to, and not what you apparently think I said.

Purchase law, under 21

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