College of William and Mary seeks to ban guns

W&M unholsters policy against guns

My email to taylor@wm.edu, sjwilm@wm.edu, and aiburn@wm.edu:

I am writing to urge you to not pass a regulation guaranteeing that W&M becomes a guaranteed defenseless-victim zone for your students.


Virginia Tech had a strict no-guns policy. That did not deter Seung-Hui Cho... he was already intent upon committing an unspeakable act of depravity. What's one more relatively-minor violation to him, or to anyone else who intends to commit some violent act? That regulation did nothing except to guarantee that his victims could do nothing but huddle in terror, waiting to be massacred.


I would urge you to consider the case of Amanda Collins, a young woman who attended the University of Nevada, and a responsible gun owner with a permit to carry her sidearm. The University had a no-guns rule, which led her to leave her gun at home... and become the victim of a rape. Her rapist went on to kill someone else. How did UNRs policy help anyone but the attacker?


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/04/0...ones-universities-unlikely-hero-nevada-woman/


Scarcely a day goes by that there isn't an article about a mugging, robbery, or violent assault near one institute of higher learning or another. Laws and rules and regulations never deter the attackers, but only the responsible and law-abiding.


Lastly, I would ask you to consider the events of October 16, 1991 in Killeen TX Another nut entered Luby's Cafeteria and began killing people. Suzanna Hupp had left her sidearm in her vehicle to comply with the law in Texas at the time, which forbade carry into restaurants. That law did not stop the murderer, but Ms. Hupp got to watch both of her parents killed while she could do nothing.


Is that really the vision you have for William and Mary? Are you so certain that your students and faculty are so irresponsible that they cannot carry the means to defend themselves and others, even though they can pretty much everywhere else in the state of Virginia? What kind of message does that send?


Again, please... reconsider this regulation. It cannot possibly do anything positive, and could wind up planting the seeds for something very negative.

Great letter. Well written. ODU is attempting the same thing now. Let us know if you get a response.

Edit: just read that this wen out on a VA-ALERT. I think they're going to get a few more emails.

the thing is

that logic and reason are of no consequence to the powers that be in the university. they have as their primary concern the impressing of the professors and alumni (which are generally left of center). They may not actually be of the opinion that the new rule will make anyone safer, or even deter criminal activity. They do however, I believe, desire to manipulate and control other people's lives. The ego rush achieved by this is of more importance to them than the safety of the huddled masses that may be affected negatively by their rule.

Don't expect a logical presentation of facts to have any impact. Don't get your hopes up that rational thought will alter their intentions. All of their professed concern is just posturing. Their minds are already made up. They will enlarge their fiefdom and the peasants can just eat cake. Have the "rulers" at VT ever seen the light or do they continue to cling to their criminal-friendly, freedom despising, rules?

I wish it was as simple as providing information, citing previous cases/examples, engaging in logical deduction, but sadly, such is not the case. Although your letter was well written, sensible, logical, and even compelling, it will quickly be placed in the circular file.

6L6GC said:

that logic and reason are of no consequence to the powers that be in the university. they have as their primary concern the impressing of the professors and alumni (which are generally left of center). They may not actually be of the opinion that the new rule will make anyone safer, or even deter criminal activity. They do however, I believe, desire to manipulate and control other people's lives. The ego rush achieved by this is of more importance to them than the safety of the huddled masses that may be affected negatively by their rule.

Don't expect a logical presentation of facts to have any impact. Don't get your hopes up that rational thought will alter their intentions. All of their professed concern is just posturing. Their minds are already made up. They will enlarge their fiefdom and the peasants can just eat cake. Have the "rulers" at VT ever seen the light or do they continue to cling to their criminal-friendly, freedom despising, rules?

I wish it was as simple as providing information, citing previous cases/examples, engaging in logical deduction, but sadly, such is not the case. Although your letter was well written, sensible, logical, and even compelling, it will quickly be placed in the circular file.

Click to expand...

The alternate recommended actions is......?

Facts and a good presentation do work in conjunction with each other and numbers do count. The correction is not always immediate, but we are winning on many fronts through the well directed efforts of the many purveyors of truth - factual, honest truth.

We are winning at the state level, at the city and county level and now the colleges and universities of Virginia are directly in the forefront of our efforts. The timing is right for change to a more realistic position. Don't discount these efforts.

Grapeshot you have a far rosier outlook on state level firearm changes than I. With all these colleges and universities now working to adopt regulations that they didn't have before and no legal challenges to their authority to issue such regulations I don't exactly see this as a positive. Additionally, we still have no significant changes to other restrictions in state agencies (excepting state forests) despite having a supposedly friendly governor. Maybe there's information you know that I haven't seen. I guess perhaps we're better off than 5 years ago.

We are better off than we were five years ago, and there is a great deal of activity under way to make the situation even better.

While administrators may not want to be moved by logic, and desire to increase the amount and scope of control they exert over their fiefdom, there are others who can burden, if not actually control, the administrators and those folks are beginning to see the facts and the consequences of creating more defenseless-victim zones. While not quite as obvious the courts are slowly coming to the point where removing a citizen's rigts for arbitrary and caprecious reasons is not tolerated well.

I've posted a wld and crazy idea at http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?95348-A-Way-To-Get-No-Guns-Signs-Rules-Taken-Down that points to a way to use the courts' own touchy-feely rulings on the First Amendment as a way to move on the Second Amendment. It requires time, thought, and concerted action which is why it may not have a great chance. But if we take the long view as Grapeshot has suggested, instead of looking for immediate gratificatiojn and success, we might just get where we want to be whether it's by the path I have pointed out or some other path or combination of paths.

Right now the task is to keep hammering away at the fact that the proposed solution of gun-free zones not only does not protect anyone but actually puts them in greater danger. Once we get that settled we can address the foolish argument that college students will go around shooting each other and their professors over trivial issues - mainly because they for some reason do not seem to understand that the students can bring a baseball bat into class and achieve the same result but for some reason have not bothered to do that.

stay safe.

I'm confused, I thought they could not enact regs that controlled anyone but students and employees of the uni, but that is not how I read that article.

Beyond the reality that it's a stupid feelgood reg that doesn't survive a moment of logical scrutiny, how would this even work? Are the boundaries of W&M campus posted? Am I on the campus when I drive down Richmond road to Merchant's Square?

You know it pisses me off. The only logic of these gun free zones for lawful gun carriers is that if these lawful carriers would somehow become enraged in an argument. So where are all these attacks. Concealed and open carry has been legal for years. Surely there should be thousands and thousands of incidents in each state where lawful gun carriers get into an argument and start shooting. I just guess I miss them in the news?

Thanks for the response Skidmark. I'll be sure to read your link.

Skeptic said:

I'm confused, I thought they could not enact regs that controlled anyone but students and employees of the uni, but that is not how I read that article.

Beyond the reality that it's a stupid feelgood reg that doesn't survive a moment of logical scrutiny, how would this even work? Are the boundaries of W&M campus posted? Am I on the campus when I drive down Richmond road to Merchant's Square?

You know it pisses me off. The only logic of these gun free zones for lawful gun carriers is that if these lawful carriers would somehow become enraged in an argument. So where are all these attacks. Concealed and open carry has been legal for years. Surely there should be thousands and thousands of incidents in each state where lawful gun carriers get into an argument and start shooting. I just guess I miss them in the news?

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Read DiGiacinto vs. the Rector and Visitors of George Mason University

Universities and colleges may NOT regulate visitors (non-employee & non-student) on the grounds of their campuses, but rather only in the buildings and at special events as in their stadium.

This ruling actually helped us with schools like VCU, who tried to impose (by regulation) that NO non-LEO guns where legal on campus - period.

The timing is indeed right for change

Grapeshot said:

The alternate recommended actions is......?

Facts and a good presentation do work in conjunction with each other and numbers do count. The correction is not always immediate, but we are winning on many fronts through the well directed efforts of the many purveyors of truth - factual, honest truth.

We are winning at the state level, at the city and county level and now the colleges and universities of Virginia are directly in the forefront of our efforts. The timing is right for change to a more realistic position. Don't discount these efforts.

Click to expand...

How well educated are the academics? Do they who would judge us as untrustworthy have the credentials to pass judgment? The citizens should consider rebelling against proposed tyranny by confronting these central planners with informed questions and demands for evidence that no one other than law enforcement can be trusted to keep and bear arms.

When the law is used for legal plunder, in any form, in this instance by robbing visitors of their natural right of self-preservation, the law becomes perverted; the law-makers become despots. Enough.

For those who are ignorant of Bastiat (let the would-be tyrants be ignorant; let all of you be informed) a suggested Homework Assignment.

Repeater said:

....snip....

When the law is used for legal plunder, in any form, in this instance by robbing visitors of their natural right of self-preservation, the law becomes perverted; the law-makers become despots. Enough.

For those who are ignorant of Bastiat (let the would-be tyrants be ignorant; let all of you be informed) a suggested Homework Assignment.

Click to expand...

Superb reading - should be required.