How to repond to LEO request for ID

eye95 said:

One thing we all need to train ourselves on is that LEOs are citizens. They have the same rights that you and I have. We may walk up to a citizen and ask him for his name.

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I beg to differ...

LEOs are, while on duty, agents of the government, and therefore they are, in fact ENTIRELY different from "citizens" in the eyes of the legal system.

Also, just like the employees of any other private corporation (because that is EXACTLY what LEOs are--their employers are the Municipal Corporations that employ them), they are restricted (and protected) by the policies of their employer. While on duty, police are prohibited from exercising their 1A rights, have SEVERE restrictions on their 2A rights, and function under severe restrictions (and near revocation) of several other of the rights guaranteed to "citizens" by the Bill of Rights.

So, while I would agree that LEOs are HUMANS, and deserving of the same respect and cordiality we would give to any other nosy, intrusive, human being who was intent on violating our civil rights in pursuit of revenue, power-over, or just general s#!+s and giggles, I would COMPLETELY disagree that they are bound by the same rule of law that "citizens" are in the course of their daily work.

In fact, they are expressly (by statute, code, and law) allowed to do MANY things that would land a "citizen" in jail, and they are prohibited from doing many things that "citizens" take for granted as fundamental human rights...

When an LEO is off duty, he is just the same as any "citizen"... But then again, most LEAs have it as official policy that their officers are NEVER truly "off duty", even when they are off the clock and out of uniform.

Dreamer said:

SNIP So, while I would agree that LEOs are HUMANS, and deserving of the same respect and cordiality we would give to any other nosy, intrusive, human being who was intent on violating our civil rights in pursuit of revenue, power-over, or just general s#!+s and giggles, I would COMPLETELY disagree that they are bound by the same rule of law that "citizens" are in the course of their daily work.

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ROFLMAO!! +1

(Note to self: swallow coffee before reading Dreamer's posts. He likes sneaking things up on you.)

sudden valley gunner said:

I have the last one recorded, I was carrying he wasn't making an issue of that it was another matter, he was still pissed I wasn't "co-operating", told me unless I do he is going too...so asked him "isn't that coercsion?"

I got court Friday what do you wanna bet the police report is going to have, all the normal cop boilerplate language in it.

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If he brings up body language (crossed arms) as a point of non-cooperation, the counter-point would be one cannot simply put thier arms down by thier sides when dealing with a police officer who deals with the bad element on a regular basis. That would be a good point on the cop's behalf that "he was reaching for it..." Police officers are trained not to put their hands in their pockets, and usually default to crossed arms or hands by sides.

Kirbinator said:

If he brings up body language (crossed arms) as a point of non-cooperation, the counter-point would be one cannot simply put thier arms down by thier sides when dealing with a police officer who deals with the bad element on a regular basis. That would be a good point on the cop's behalf that "he was reaching for it..." Police officers are trained not to put their hands in their pockets, and usually default to crossed arms or hands by sides.

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Not true most of the officers I have interacted with seam to think their sidearm is a conveniant place to rest their strong side hand ??? while the weak hand fondels their mag pouch??? Mind you I have no problem with this behavior it's just that if I were to act is the same fashion I would be bereated at best and charged with Brandishing or even drawn down on at worst. Is it just me or has anyone else notised this trend??

Kirbinator said:

If he brings up body language (crossed arms) as a point of non-cooperation, the counter-point would be one cannot simply put thier arms down by thier sides when dealing with a police officer who deals with the bad element on a regular basis. That would be a good point on the cop's behalf that "he was reaching for it..." Police officers are trained not to put their hands in their pockets, and usually default to crossed arms or hands by sides.

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This is where the "Jack Benny posture" works so well and was taught for years by many instructors. It communicates a non-threatening attitude of listening/interest but remains at the ready for defensive reaction. Only improvement I ever saw was to extend the index finger along the jaw line which communicates giving serious thought to the words of the other and has hidden benefit. Body language is an important part of our ability to interact/communicate.



Note: Use dominant hand to face, other hand supporting that elbow.
Try it - it is natural and it works.

Grapeshot said:

This is where the "Jack Benny posture" works so well and was taught for years by many instructors. It communicates a non-threatening attitude of listening/interest but remains at the ready for defensive reaction. Only improvement I ever saw was to extend the index finger along the jaw line which communicates giving serious thought to the words of the other and has hidden benefit. Body language is an important part of our ability to interact/communicate.



Note: Use dominant hand to face, other hand supporting that elbow.
Try it - it is natural and it works.

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I use this stance a lot when i'm confronted in public and I don't know the person.
I also put my left hand under my armpit and than rest my right hand on the elbow of my left arm.

CharleyMarbles said:

Not true most of the officers I have interacted with seam to think their sidearm is a conveniant place to rest their strong side hand ??? while the weak hand fondels their mag pouch??? Mind you I have no problem with this behavior it's just that if I were to act is the same fashion I would be bereated at best and charged with Brandishing or even drawn down on at worst. Is it just me or has anyone else notised this trend??

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VERY TRUE. This is IMHO another symptom of the cast system that has been systematically imposed. The whole "I can do it but not you." Attitude. This type of mentality I believe is at the very core of our main purpose here. The masses have been brainwashed into believing that exercising your rights is "extremist" behavior. This is simply untrue. Fact is our rights are seen as simply not applicable to John Q Citizen by many in authority. Furthermore, those who know better rarely contradict their peers for fear of causing waves. This is human nature, however it is one that must be corrected.



"All animals are equal, however some animals are more equal than others." Animal Farm.

Dreamer said:

I beg to differ...

LEOs are, while on duty, agents of the government, and therefore they are, in fact ENTIRELY different from "citizens" in the eyes of the legal system.

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Let's also remember how much bandwith Eye spent on trying to make sure we all realize cops are not civilians. Hmmmm all of sudden they should be afforded the same rights as civilians?, ......curious. :lol:

Grapeshot said:

This is where the "Jack Benny posture" works so well and was taught for years by many instructors. It communicates a non-threatening attitude of listening/interest but remains at the ready for defensive reaction. Only improvement I ever saw was to extend the index finger along the jaw line which communicates giving serious thought to the words of the other and has hidden benefit. Body language is an important part of our ability to interact/communicate.



Note: Use dominant hand to face, other hand supporting that elbow.
Try it - it is natural and it works.

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hotrod8812 said:

I use this stance a lot when i'm confronted in public and I don't know the person.
I also put my left hand under my armpit and than rest my right hand on the elbow of my left arm.

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Arms crossed across the chest is viewed as being closed or in opposition to the other party. It also is a more difficult stance from which to react - slower.

Learning to "read" other people and understanding the message you are sending to them (even unconsciously) is a learned skill/art form. Something that many don't consider - it's another worthwhile tool in our kit.

NRAMARINE said:

The masses have been brainwashed into believing that exercising your rights is "extremist" behavior.

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It amazes, astonishes, and scares me to think that people believe that. If you can't exercise your rights, you are de facto ruled by someone. If you don't believe in the Bill of Rights, what's the point of having the rest?

sudden valley gunner said:

Let's also remember how much bandwith Eye spent on trying to make sure we all realize cops are not civilians. Hmmmm all of sudden they should be afforded the same rights as civilians?, ......curious. :lol:

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Absolutely not. We should treat them like Rottweilers: keep them on a short chain at all times and never let them out without supervision a few feet away.

Sadly, when you discuss firearms and rights with people who weren't born here, and didn't grow up in a free state (like somewhere other than NY, CA, DC, NJ, etc.) it takes a mental reverse of the roles to start to get the gears moving in their heads. And because of nanny-state-ism, partly brought about the availability of 911 operators to council the populace about pizza delivery and dispatch officers to non-emergency calls, many of those living in the larger cities do tend to see police as ubermensch -- a separate class of men, often rough around the edges like Jack Nicholson's character spoke of in a well known movie regarding handling honest exchanges of information. It is in that dehumanization of the badge, the uniform, and gun that causes the very root of the problem. And of course, it's our nature to dehumanize! :banghead::banana:

Anyway, some folks need a tri-fold pamphlet that explains what "rights" are and what they mean.

I encourage everyone to do a ride along with their local PD if they offer such a program. Getting involved with the local PD will allow you to see what is going on, what they are facing on a daily basis, and it will give you in roads to make changes.

Depending on the PD, you would be surprised what their call volume is, what kind of calls they are getting sent to, and you would be able to see what kind of officers are working for that PD.

Get involved. That's Civics 101.

I would also encourage LEO, to take off the badge and remove some of the cop mentality and try to exercise some civil rights that are not necessarily approved by LEO, than try to invoke the fifth when approached by LEO. Might open their mind to what we have to go through.

palerider116 said:

I encourage everyone to do a ride along with their local PD if they offer such a program. Getting involved with the local PD will allow you to see what is going on, what they are facing on a daily basis, and it will give you in roads to make changes.

Depending on the PD, you would be surprised what their call volume is, what kind of calls they are getting sent to, and you would be able to see what kind of officers are working for that PD.

Get involved. That's Civics 101.

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I encourage this 100%. Still, when I asked to be involved in this, I said I would love to do a ride-along, and with only one condition: That I would retain, and not forfeit my Constitutional right to keep and bear ams as a condition of accompanying them on the ride along.

One guess as to their response...

since9 said:

I encourage this 100%. Still, when I asked to be involved in this, I said I would love to do a ride-along, and with only one condition: That I would retain, and not forfeit my Constitutional right to keep and bear ams as a condition of accompanying them on the ride along.

One guess as to their response...

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I doubt the local cops will ask me. They think I'll show up with a camcorder, formally complain about every misstep, and offer to testify on behalf of the anybody whose tiniest right they violate. And, want either my gun, or the patrol rifle/shotgun.

They're right.

since9 said:

I encourage this 100%. Still, when I asked to be involved in this, I said I would love to do a ride-along, and with only one condition: That I would retain, and not forfeit my Constitutional right to keep and bear ams as a condition of accompanying them on the ride along.

One guess as to their response...

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Just gotta find the right officer.

Citizen said:

I doubt the local cops will ask me. They think I'll show up with a camcorder, formally complain about every misstep, and offer to testify on behalf of the anybody whose tiniest right they violate. And, want either my gun, or the patrol rifle/shotgun.

They're right.

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We'd have fun.

Of course Grapeshot would have to come along so we could have the battle off the wits.

So Back on topic of "How to respond to LEO request for ID"

Personally, if it is a "request"... JUST SAY NO and continue walking! (be sure to have witnesses and /or recorder going)

As for what follows--- that is entirely up to the LEO!

JoeSparky said:

So Back on topic of "How to respond to LEO request for ID"

Personally, if it is a "request"... JUST SAY NO and continue walking! (be sure to have witnesses and /or recorder going)

As for what follows--- that is entirely up to the LEO!

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VA also is a more mature OC state, so MWAG calls tend to get debunked quickly.

Caller: There's a man with a gun.
911: What's he doing?
Caller: He's eating steak and sitting with a woman and a couple of children!
911: That is legal, have a good day.

I've even heard a couple of calls canceled by a supervisor.

As usual, it depends on what you want out of the encounter. It all you want is to be on your way quickly, just give him your name. Have the little 'is he a threat' ******** conversation, and then go on about your business. In a perfect world, this would be all the 'harassment' we had to put up with.

Or you can take the hard line, where the first thing you ask is "Am I free to leave?" and the last thing you ask is "Am I free to leave?" Your rights are intact, and you may have only been unlawfully detained for a couple hours.

Or you can take the really hard line, and try to explain to the officer why, exactly, you don't have to comply with his requests, and why, exactly, his demands are unlawful. Good luck with that.

My problem is that I want to treat officers like I treat everyone else. Then I remember later that 'everyone else' isn't trying to make a case against me.

since9 said:

I encourage this 100%. Still, when I asked to be involved in this, I said I would love to do a ride-along, and with only one condition: That I would retain, and not forfeit my Constitutional right to keep and bear ams as a condition of accompanying them on the ride along.

One guess as to their response...

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It might surprise you. The last time I did a ride along, the first thing the patrol officer did was hand me a Browning Hi-Power and an extra clip.

It really depends. He knew me and was on the same force I had previously been on. There was already a degree of trust. If you do a ride along with an officer you know or one who doesn't know you can make a large difference.