House of representatives staff analysi

Licensees must carry their license and valid identification any time they are in actual possession of a concealed weapon or firearm and display both documents upon demand by a law enforcement officer. Failure to have proper documentation and display it upon demand is a noncriminal violation punishable by a penalty of $25, payable to the clerk of the court.

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http://myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/...entType=Analysis&BillNumber=0517&Session=2011

So even if you get any crap from LEO for not showing them your Id Or PERMISSION slip the most they can hit you with is $25.00. Good to know

mach1chris said:

Buy a ID holder/CWP badge kinda like what undercover cops use around there neck...basically using it like a badge around your neck so that LE can see it and dont bother to ask you for it later...

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The point here is that I will never carry mine so as to kill any expectations that I will ever have to let them see it and they can give me a ticket for $25.00 because that is all they can do. From there after so many tickets I then can sue there dumb asses for harassment and have proof of such. I want them to bother me.......
I have no intentions to ever show them and type of Id nor CWP. Here in Hillsborough County I have been ask for my Id tooooo many times as it sit now and refuse each and every time.

Rick H said:

The point here is that I will never carry mine so as to kill any expectations that I will ever have to let them see it and they can give me a ticket for $25.00 because that is all they can do. From there after so many tickets I then can sue there dumb asses for harassment and have proof of such. I want them to bother me.......
I have no intentions to ever show them and type of Id nor CWP. Here in Hillsborough County I have been ask for my Id tooooo many times as it sit now and refuse each and every time.

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I'm not sure I understand Rick, you would rather get ticketed multiple times than show your permit?

Why not show it and be done with it?

mach1chris said:

Buy a ID holder/CWP badge kinda like what undercover cops use around there neck...basically using it like a badge around your neck so that LE can see it and dont bother to ask you for it later...

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Then see if you get arrested for impersonating a police officer.

FzSBLACKMAGICK said:

I'm not sure I understand Rick, you would rather get ticketed multiple times than show your permit?

Why not show it and be done with it?

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Thank you for being reasonable. No I won't lay down and let anyone have their way with me, but I WILL SHOW THEM MY DANG CARD, GET IT OVER WITH, AND GO MY WAY.

Assuming this does get through the anti-gun senate, and I'm not confident that it will, they'll probably add an amendment where it spells out that you have to show them the CWFL-regardless of RAS of any other crime. It would take a lawsuit to get it overturned.

FzSBLACKMAGICK said:

I'm not sure I understand Rick, you would rather get ticketed multiple times than show your permit?

Why not show it and be done with it?

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+1 ditto.

FzSBLACKMAGICK said:

I'm not sure I understand Rick, you would rather get ticketed multiple times than show your permit?

Why not show it and be done with it?

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Once you can establish a pattern of abuse. You have show of intent and therefore can bring Civil lawsuits against the person(s) committing the act of unreasonable search and seizure, as well as harassment. A poor person just walking down the road or sitting down eating lunch with a Rolex watch on does not give P/C to be detained or harassed, well the same goes for a citizen doing the same with a firearm if it has just law in his corner. and therefore is a crime and I personally will not allow my right to be stripped just because a cop think he has justification. without P/C you do not have to even talk to his dumb ass.

Rick H said:

Once you can establish a pattern of abuse. You have show of intent and therefore can bring Civil lawsuits against the person(s) committing the act of unreasonable search and seizure, as well as harassment. A poor person just walking down the road or sitting down eating lunch with a Rolex watch on does not give P/C to be detained or harassed, well the same goes for a citizen doing the same with a firearm if it has just law in his corner. and therefore is a crime and I personally will not allow my right to be stripped just because a cop think he has justification. without P/C you do not have to even talk to his dumb ass.

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First of all Rick, I don't understand your constant referral to LEO's as "dumbasses" There simply is no need for that here. I have friends who are cops and I don't think a one is a "dumbass".
If he's asking you for your card he is doing as the law states he should do no? That is if it were passed with the stipulation that you produce your permit upon demand. Now, if you don't like that stipulation...there are ways to go about changing it but I'm not sure amassing tickets and being generally non-compliant is the best way. They say we CCW holders are the most law abiding citizens on the planet and I'd like it to stay that way. There are reasonable, peaceable ways to get the law changed. I understand the concern with one's rights, RAS, papers please and all that I just don't think name calling and stubborn refusal really helps in the end. You call your sheriff, you call your representatives yes?

mach1chris said:

sounds like you guys hate cops lol

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Definitely not. In addition to being "necessary for the security of a free state", the right to bear arms is a sort of pillow for some people, myself included. In the face of a homogenized corporate culture, oppressive taxes and regulations, when people have guns it makes them feel like they're still free human beings. Have you ever seen the pictures of when Saddam Hussein was still in power? He'd march down the street with civilians holding AK's and grenades. He was a dictator and murderous toward the kurds but Iraq had no form of weapons control. Nada. He did this because disarmed people are contemptible, and feel disrespected. In addition to enjoying a violent crime rate of about zero, the government respected the people more and vice versa because of the guns.

The police are enforcers of all kinds of absurd tyrannies, but when we're treated like criminals just for acting like free people, that really pushes many peoples' buttons. I start off having respect for any cop that respects my right to bear arms. I once OCed in North Carolina and two NC state troopers walked right by and just nodded. They understood, or at least accepted, that they weren't more special than I was. They didn't act like "Only Ones". Why can't it be like that in Florida?

mach1chris said:

sounds like you guys hate cops lol

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There may be one or two on here that can be described as "cop haters", but most people here know that in a population of any size, there are good and there are bad.

Most waiters are good, but some are bad. Generally speaking, if you encounter a bad waiter, the worst thing that happens is a bad meal or poor service.

Some cops are bad, plain and simple. If you encounter a bad cop, they can more than ruin your day, they can ruin your life. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any checks and balances when it comes to bad cops. There is a long history in many departments of covering up for bad cops. Most encounters with cops comes down to your word vs. the cop's word. If your encounter results in a trial, who will be believed? If you are falsely accused, proving it in a court of law will cost you tens of thousands of dollars. You pay your lawyer and the cop gets his paid by the taxpayer (you again).

Even amongst the good cops there is an attitude of "us versus them". I work occasionally with Tampa PD. Several times I have heard them use the expression "If you're not sworn, you're not born". I'm sure this attitude is not limited to Tampa PD.

If and when the open carry law is signed by the governor, I plan to carry when the situation warrants it. I try very hard to not interact with law enforcement in any way, shape or form. Any encounter with a LEO could turn out bad, therefore I try very hard to not have any interaction with the LEOs. I know that if I am challenged by a LEO while open carrying, there is a chance things could go wrong.

It is very sad that in this country, respect for law enforcement has been replaced by fear of law enforcement.

maps761 said:

There may be one or two on here that can be described as "cop haters", but most people here know that in a population of any size, there are good and there are bad.

Most waiters are good, but some are bad. Generally speaking, if you encounter a bad waiter, the worst thing that happens is a bad meal or poor service.

Some cops are bad, plain and simple. If you encounter a bad cop, they can more than ruin your day, they can ruin your life. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any checks and balances when it comes to bad cops. There is a long history in many departments of covering up for bad cops. Most encounters with cops comes down to your word vs. the cop's word. If your encounter results in a trial, who will be believed? If you are falsely accused, proving it in a court of law will cost you tens of thousands of dollars. You pay your lawyer and the cop gets his paid by the taxpayer (you again).

Even amongst the good cops there is an attitude of "us versus them". I work occasionally with Tampa PD. Several times I have heard them use the expression "If you're not sworn, you're not born". I'm sure this attitude is not limited to Tampa PD.

If and when the open carry law is signed by the governor, I plan to carry when the situation warrants it. I try very hard to not interact with law enforcement in any way, shape or form. Any encounter with a LEO could turn out bad, therefore I try very hard to not have any interaction with the LEOs. I know that if I am challenged by a LEO while open carrying, there is a chance things could go wrong.

It is very sad that in this country, respect for law enforcement has been replaced by fear of law enforcement.

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Nail on head. Why does that video of the Philly cop the other day make me so angry? Because I know that cop will probably get away with it. He was ignorant of the law, so that will excuse him from charges of disorderly conduct, official oppression, etc. Double standard.

FzSBLACKMAGICK said:

First of all Rick, I don't understand your constant referral to LEO's as "dumbasses" There simply is no need for that here. I have friends who are cops and I don't think a one is a "dumbass".
If he's asking you for your card he is doing as the law states he should do no? That is if it were passed with the stipulation that you produce your permit upon demand. Now, if you don't like that stipulation...there are ways to go about changing it but I'm not sure amassing tickets and being generally non-compliant is the best way. They say we CCW holders are the most law abiding citizens on the planet and I'd like it to stay that way. There are reasonable, peaceable ways to get the law changed. I understand the concern with one's rights, RAS, papers please and all that I just don't think name calling and stubborn refusal really helps in the end. You call your sheriff, you call your representatives yes?

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First off this is there job to uphold the laws of the United States of America beginning with The United States Constitution. Secondly I too have LEO that are friends here in my area BUT, when I am to be asked for my Permission Slip when I have done nothing wrong then that is when I get Ticked off. You see the first set of laws overwrite all the other laws unless changed which they will not be. but when and if they do then I will Comply, NOT UNTIL THEN. You seem to think that just because a Local or State law is made but not changed in the Untied State Constitution or even The States Constitution that it is law. NOPE< INCORRECT< WRONG< ABSOLUTE FABRICATION.
First the Government has their LAWS as to what laws can be made. NOTHING MORE.
Also If they don't like their job then find another one. They are ordinary people that put on a badge and a gun and think they are better then everybody else.
Here is a question for you, if thy were to want to do a strip search on you for no reason would you let them? if you answer yes then you must be a sheeple.
This is the exact same thing! they have no right to do these things and are forbidden by law, THEIRS AND OURS>>>>>. GET IT YET

Also if a LEO is tempting me against what I know is the law then yes he is a DUMBASS for not knowing the law.

Also I do NOT hate Police Officers or LEO, what I can NOT stand is a person that thinks they above me or you just because they have a job any job or better job or make more money or have a better house, car or better looking wife. This is America and everybody has the right to be free of Tyrannic Intents against them. PERIOD

If somebody is being violated then it is what it is, and I will let them know they are wrong, I for one will have a digital cam w/remote unit as to not be found to record what is happening. Justice will prevail.

I'm just going to throw this out there and see what comes of it.

True or false - A driver in Florida must carry a valid driver's license from either Florida, some other state, or an international license.

True or false - An automobile having a standard supply of fuel can kill or mame with equal or greater efficiency than a handgun with a standard supply of cartridges.

True or false - Lacking RAS, an officer who stopped persons at will just to see if they indeed had a valid driver's license would not be looked upon too kindly by either the public nor his superiors, assuming complaints started coming in.

So why would a citizen who is armed be treated differently than a citizen who is driving?

Rich7553 said:

I'm just going to throw this out there and see what comes of it.

True or false - A driver in Florida must carry a valid driver's license from either Florida, some other state, or an international license.

True or false - An automobile having a standard supply of fuel can kill or mame with equal or greater efficiency than a handgun with a standard supply of cartridges.

True or false - Lacking RAS, an officer who stopped persons at will just to see if they indeed had a valid driver's license would not be looked upon too kindly by either the public nor his superiors, assuming complaints started coming in.

So why would a citizen who is armed be treated differently than a citizen who is driving?

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True
True
True

This is all people jealous of our rights are asking for and pointing out. As long as day to day activities go on as usual, automobiles are far more dangerous than firearms. And of course, auto accidents kill far more cops than BG's with firearms. And if we ever want constitutional carry in Fl, licensed OC has to eventually be seen as no big deal, as no reason for a cop to accost an OCer.

Rich7553 said:

I'm just going to throw this out there and see what comes of it.

True or false - A driver in Florida must carry a valid driver's license from either Florida, some other state, or an international license.

True or false - An automobile having a standard supply of fuel can kill or mame with equal or greater efficiency than a handgun with a standard supply of cartridges.

True or false - Lacking RAS, an officer who stopped persons at will just to see if they indeed had a valid driver's license would not be looked upon too kindly by either the public nor his superiors, assuming complaints started coming in.

So why would a citizen who is armed be treated differently than a citizen who is driving?

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1. True
2. True
3. True

Justice White Stated:
"There is nothing in the Constitution which prevents a policeman from addressing questions to anyone on the streets. Absent special circumstances, the person approached may not be detained or frisked but may refuse to cooperate and go on his way. However, given the proper circumstances, such as those in this case, it seems to me the person may be briefly detained against his will while pertinent questions are directed to him. Of course, the person stopped is not obliged to answer, answers may not be compelled, and refusal to answer furnishes no basis for an arrest, although it may alert the officer to the need for continued observation." (392 U.S. 1, at 34).
With regard to the lack of obligation to respond when detained under circumstances of Terry, this opinion came to be regarded as persuasive authority in some jurisdictions, and the Court cited these remarks in dicta in Berkemer v. McCarty, 468 U.S. 420 (1984), at 439. However, in Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, 542 U.S. 177 (2004), the Court held that neither of these remarks was controlling in a situation where a state law required a detained person to identify himself.

Rick H said:

First off this is there job to uphold the laws of the United States of America beginning with The United States Constitution. Secondly I too have LEO that are friends here in my area BUT, when I am to be asked for my Permission Slip when I have done nothing wrong then that is when I get Ticked off. You see the first set of laws overwrite all the other laws unless changed which they will not be. but when and if they do then I will Comply, NOT UNTIL THEN. You seem to think that just because a Local or State law is made but not changed in the Untied State Constitution or even The States Constitution that it is law. NOPE< INCORRECT< WRONG< ABSOLUTE FABRICATION.

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What did Heller do to get the law changed in DC? Did he buck local law or did he challenge it and win?

First the Government has their LAWS as to what laws can be made. NOTHING MORE.
Also If they don't like their job then find another one. They are ordinary people that put on a badge and a gun and think they are better then everybody else.

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Really? So your cop friends are like this? Mine aren't.

Here is a question for you, if thy were to want to do a strip search on you for no reason would you let them? if you answer yes then you must be a sheeple.
This is the exact same thing! they have no right to do these things and are forbidden by law, THEIRS AND OURS>>>>>. GET IT YET

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Flawed analogy, there is a huge difference between the two. If this bill becomes law as is, it would be law, there is no law for strip searches in public to my knowledge.
You got a permit right? YOU went and got one...why did you bother? You did to comply with the law. Did you expect not to ever have to show it? What would be the point of having to get it if you didn't? Now, not liking it is another story. Not liking it because it's unconstitutional, also your right. You're assuming when you're approached they have no cause...it isn't hard to have.
It's your method of dealing with it that strikes me as odd. It would be equivalent to not wearing a seatbelt and amassing thousands of dollars in fines...do you really think that will get the law changed???

Also if a LEO is tempting me against what I know is the law then yes he is a DUMBASS for not knowing the law.

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You're assuming he has no reasonable cause, that's a real stretch IMO. Not hard to have is it? And if he did, he would be ignorant of the law but you go ahead, call a cop a dumbass to his face.

I think it would be much more effective for all of us to write our reps now about this clause then defying it or just dealing it wih it later but if we have to, then we do.

FzSBLACKMAGICK said:

What did Heller do to get the law changed in DC? Did he buck local law or did he challenge it and win?



Really? So your cop friends are like this? Mine aren't.



Flawed analogy, there is a huge difference between the two. If this bill becomes law as is, it would be law, there is no law for strip searches in public to my knowledge.
You got a permit right? YOU went and got one...why did you bother? You did to comply with the law. Did you expect not to ever have to show it? What would be the point of having to get it if you didn't? Now, not liking it is another story. Not liking it because it's unconstitutional, also your right. You're assuming when you're approached they have no cause...it isn't hard to have.
It's your method of dealing with it that strikes me as odd. It would be equivalent to not wearing a seatbelt and amassing thousands of dollars in fines...do you really think that will get the law changed???

You're assuming he has no reasonable cause, that's a real stretch IMO. Not hard to have is it? And if he did, he would be ignorant of the law but you go ahead, call a cop a dumbass to his face.

I think it would be much more effective for all of us to write our reps now about this clause then defying it or just dealing it wih it later but if we have to, then we do.

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Really? So your cop friends are like this? Mine aren't.

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It is what it is, Some cops are law abiding just as you or I, but there are many that
have their own agenda.

Flawed analogy, there is a huge difference between the two. If this bill becomes law as is, it would be law, there is no law for strip searches in public to my knowledge.

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Yes But there also in not a Prohibition of such either. Would you let this happen?

You got a permit right?

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Yes

YOU went and got one...why did you bother?

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Because it is the law for now.

You did to comply with the law.

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Yes

What would be the point of having to get it if you didn't?

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Your question is flawed but I understand it. Answer is to be in compliance with the law. except under false assumptive reason that I am committing a crime without P/C

Now, not liking it is another story. Not liking it because it's unconstitutional, also your right. You're assuming when you're approached they have no cause...it isn't hard to have.

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Unless they can provide P/C and swear to it that I am in violation of any law(s) of the state or to National Security, then I have in fact the right as to not provide any documentation to them nor anybody else.

It's your method of dealing with it that strikes me as odd.

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Why?

It would be equivalent to not wearing a seatbelt and amassing thousands of dollars in fines...do you really think that will get the law changed???

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No. But, I have no reason to have a law changed that already exist, if followed in accordance with the law and constitution. You seem to think that we have no RIGHTS, WHY?

but you go ahead, call a cop a dumbass to his face.

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I did the other night to a Hillsborough County Dept. and NOTHING!!!,
and there is nothing he can do.

It would be equivalent to not wearing a seatbelt and amassing thousands of dollars in fines

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I have been driving for (30) Thirty Years and have only ONCE (20)years ago when it was $25 that I had a seat belt ticket, and will refuse do to wear one.

Only if a law is Constitutional, and from what you are stating is that when a law is made in a state then it is law, you are 100% incorrect look at Chicago , look at DC they made a law and was overturned by the Supreme Court as Unconstitutional where do you get your facts? This is America and it is One Nation NOT an Independent land of States. rules do apply to them as well.

Rick H said:

It is what it is, Some cops are law abiding just as you or I, but there are many that
have their own agenda.

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Well, at least I have got you to admit not all cops are bad cops.

Yes But there also in not a Prohibition of such either. Would you let this happen?

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No, because there is no law requiring that I do so, so naturally I would refuse. What we've been discussing is if the bill as currently written becomes law that you show your permit and ID upon demand of a LEO. If it's law and you do not comply with said demand, you get a ticket for 25.00 You say you'll refuse, you get a ticket. To me, all that accomplished was a lighter wallet for you and a heavier one for them. Now if you think that somehow, one day you'll amass enough of these so as to show harrassment of some sort, I'm curious...how many would that be in your mind?

I do wonder though, TO WHOM DO THEY ADDRESS THE TICKET TO...if you don't show ID???
Hmmmmm...

Because it is the law for now.

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So is the seat belt law is it not? Yet you say you don't comply with it.
What bothers me though Rick is the law requiring you to get that permit is unconstitutional Rick...and yet...you complied. It violates your rights Rick and yet there you are...permit in wallet at all times...such a good, little, obedient...slave...errr...citizen.
THAT didn't bother you...classes, training, fingerprints, photos...and money. None of it bothered Rick, there he was happily going along. Fingers full of ink, standin' in line to fire that one shot, listenin' attentively in class, smilin' for the mug shot and payin' all the way. Prolly even ran to the mailbox everyday to lookey see if it came, agonizing over each day it hadn't. None of that bothered Rick though, IT'S BEING ASKED TO SHOW IT!!! THAT BOTHERS RICK!!!
LOL..sort of strange don't you think...Rick?
That's ok, I understand, you've had enough, you're mad as hell and you're not gonna take it anymore!!!

I'm just bustin' em' Rick...I'm still proud of ya. ; )

Unless they can provide P/C and swear to it that I am in violation of any law(s) of the state or to National Security, then I have in fact the right as to not provide any documentation to them nor anybody else.

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You do have that right no doubt about it but I don't believe cops to be as dumb as you keep saying they are and in this case you get a fine. Your bet is that you somehow get enough of these to use as a case against them...what if you don't? What if you only get one a year? Is that enough? Do you have enough money to really follow it through? Court costs can add up fast.

Why?

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Because if you don't get harassed then what? all you are...is out 25.00 you haven't accomplished anything.

No. But, I have no reason to have a law changed that already exist, if followed in accordance with the law and constitution. You seem to think that we have no RIGHTS, WHY?

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I'm referring to the clause in the bill that says you have to show ID & permit or get a 25.00 fine, referring to having THAT changed. I never said we don't have rights. What I'm saying is while this clause is clearly in violation of them I think the best way to go about changing it is to say something NOW...OR...if it goes through with it, to keep calling and writing our reps until they listen.

I did the other night to a Hillsborough County Dept. and NOTHING!!!,
and there is nothing he can do.

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LOL...please get that on vid next time, I'm pretty sure that would be a Youtube first and garner millions of hits.

I have been driving for (30) Thirty Years and have only ONCE (20)years ago when it was $25 that I had a seat belt ticket, and will refuse do to wear one.

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So you pick and choose which laws you'll follow. You do know a seatbelt can make all the difference in an accident yes? Getting away with it...doesn't mean it's a good idea. You really should buckle up, not because they say you have to but hell if you have people that love you or even if you love life...click it. To me, it's a must do as much as making sure the gun is unloaded before cleaning, there are no sometimes...it's EVERY time. And I drive an 01' WS6 T/A with Ram Air, a 3400 stall, Borla exhaust, Stainless Steel headers and an LS1 Edit tune. The seat belt goes on.

Only if a law is Constitutional, and from what you are stating is that when a law is made in a state then it is law, you are 100% incorrect look at Chicago , look at DC they made a law and was overturned by the Supreme Court as Unconstitutional where do you get your facts? This is America and it is One Nation NOT an Independent land of States. rules do apply to them as well.

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No, you misunderstand me if you think I'm saying any law made by a state is automatically Constitutional, of course it isn't, hell half the Federal laws aren't either. What I'm saying is choose carefully HOW you battle...that is all.

We all want the same thing, we just may take different routes getting there.