WalkingWolf
Regular Member
Pretty much nailed it.
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State House bars openly carried guns in public gallery
- Thread starter 44Brent
- Start date
Pretty much nailed it.
Dave_pro2a
Regular Member
Criminal implies a law was broken.
No one was arrested.
A new rule had to be passed.
So, hmm, you seem really angry. Wrong, and angry.
Dave Workman
Regular Member
Well, you may be HALF right.
An arrest possibly could have been made, but troopers obviously used discretion and that simply gave House and Senate leaders all the excuse they needed to ratchet down on everyone for the actions of a handful.
Contrary to what anyone might think, state preemption — which places firearms regulation solely in the hands of the state legislature — probably allows them to do it.
It's my understanding that someone is going to challenge this prohibition on Feb. 7.
Dave Workman
Regular Member
Okay, I think we've reached the nub of the disagreement here.
They were PROTESTING. Protesting and the use of props — any kind of props (signs, umbrellas, guns) — in the viewers' gallery is prohibited and it has been so for a very long time. Everybody knows, or should know that. Whether what they did was dangerous or menacing or alarming to another person can take a back seat to the fact that these folks violated a long-standing rule. You can argue otherwise, but by admitting that this was a form of political speech and a protest, you just locked this incident in the corner, and actually provided a legal argument AGAINST them.
OR, you can say they weren't protesting, just carrying their guns, in which case they visibly stepped all over .270.
You cannot have it both ways.
Dave_pro2a
Regular Member
Ya know, that almost seems fairly cogent.
It was clearly a protest action. It was clearly a political statement. It was also possibly a violation of current law.
Regardless, there were several pre-existing solutions. A new 'rule' wasn't needed. But that's gov for you -- pass a new law against using cell phones while driving even if there is an existing law on the books that addresses 'distracted driving.' Using that logic, we need a law against applying makeup while driving, or eating cheezburgerz!
Possible problem? PASS MOAR LAWS! Yeah, that solves problems [/sarcasm]
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SovereigntyOrDeath
Regular Member
Agreed, and the "case" will not be settled here. All the back and forth does not solve the problem. As Whitney showed us in his post, the ones who made up the "rule"
may not of had the authority to make up said rule. Therefore you have a remedy.
Until someone with a grievance to redress comes forth and fights the problem, we will be here "talking" about it until the cows come home. Them dang cows sometimes don't come home. They lose their way. I know this for a fact. I had a jumper last year. It's in the freezer now. Couldn't get within 50 yards and it would take off again.
Same thing here. keep your eye on the "prize". No need to get distracted here wasting time and energy. Good Luck. Here is Whitneys post from another thread:
Hopefully the legal eagles can find a remedy in the above to the problem.
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Kit Lange
Newbie
A few points, for those interested in facts.
Forgive the interruption, but after being directed to this thread (AGAIN), I'm going to put a few thoughts here. Please also forgive the bullet points...again. (Come on you guys, why am I having to do this again?)
1. I have yet to see a single person on this thread---even those who claim that they were "there"---be able to say they were in the gallery at the time.
2. I WAS in the gallery. In fact, I was the first one in there. You can see me in the Carhartt coat, in the front, turned to the side, wearing a green watch cap. Therefore, I would posit that I am in a better position than anyone on this thread to tell you what happened inside the gallery.
3. That means I was also looking in the same direction as the supposed muzzle sweep. Which, by the way, was not occurring.
4. While out in front of the Capitol, we cleared our weapons before transferring them. I find it difficult to believe that a) the State Trooper standing 10 feet from me would have let ANYONE "sweep the crowd", b) anyone would have seen us if we DID do that. Why? Because they were staring in front of them at the speaker like a bunch of sheep who just got done eating. The only people looking up at us were the media, who left covering the rally to come stick their cameras in our faces and cover the REAL story, which at that particular moment was about 20 patriots violating I-594 in full view of the State Patrol on the Capitol steps. How do I know that? Because I was standing there, staring at all of you. Or, should I say, I was staring at the backs of your heads.
5. Contrary to what some folks are having a lot of fun spreading around (No names, of course), we didn't go into the gallery hooting and hollering. We walked in quietly, and then we noticed the legislators peeking out from behind the curtains like timid schoolgirls. Did some folks call out to them and ask what the deuce? Yup. They did. They also asked, rather loudly, if this was what our taxes were being spent for, and one guy told them to come out and earn their paycheck.
6. We did NOT, I repeat, DID NOT "wave our guns in the air." We lifted them for a photo. That's it. By the way, if a few folks on this thread can't figure out how someone could possibly lift their weapon over their head without flagging someone, then I suggest you take a gun safety course because it sounds like you need one.
7. Speaking of gun safety courses, I don't care how many people on this thread claim that their firearm instructor buddies said... I don't care. I was there. I saw them. I saw where the guns were pointed. I'm the liaison who talked to the WSP at the 13th rally, the 15th, and for the upcoming 7th rally. We coordinate with them before we come, we provide intel on people we think will be a problem (instigators and nutjobs), we talk to them while we're there, and we talk to them afterwards as well. This time was no different. And for the record, I personally called the WSP after the 15th rally and discussed the AR pistol with them. While I know most of the people who came with us, there were a few I did not. He was one of them, and he chose to ignore several directives by us before going in. That is his choice, and quite frankly, the photo of him and his rifle wasn't the problem. His inciting people to try and go down on to the House floor and put our feet on the desks was, and he got told in no uncertain terms to cut it out. I know that, because I'm the one who told him to stop it.
8. People can whine all day about our methods. The bottom line is this: The legislature, the speaker, the Lt. Gov, all of these people have two things in common. 1) They are charged with securing and maintaining the rights of the people, who according to the state Constitution and the US Constitution, hold all political power. 2) They do not have the right to tell the people when and where they can exercise their right to arms while in their own Capitol. That building does not belong to Jim Moeller, or Laurie Jinkins, or anyone else. It belongs to the people of the State of Washington, who have the right according to the supreme law of the land, to bear arms without infringement. It's that simple. If the legislature is so terrified of citizens sitting in the gallery with (UNLOADED!!!) rifles, then the question is not "why are you guys bringing rifles in the gallery?" The question is "what are our legislators doing that they would have anything to fear at all from armed constituents watching them do it?"
The answer is in the daily sheets outlining the bills being introduced. Do you know how many gun control bills have been introduced in the last few weeks alone? Are you aware that Laurie Jinkins, the head of the Judiciary committee, is purposely blocking pro-gun bills from leaving committee, while ramming through her own draconian bills meant to disarm the populace? Are you aware that she is a member of the national group of state legislators tasked with bringing to fruition a disarmament of the nation?
We are going back on the 7th of February, and we will defy their unconstitutional laws and arbitrary rules. They will arrest some of us---not only has the WSP stated that publicly, but my contact there has told me that personally. But what you don't understand is that we have no other choice. While others play with court cases that will take forever, and others call legislators who don't give a rat's rectum about what the will of the people is, someone has to go down there and STAND. That is what we're doing. That is what we will continue to do.
For those of you who know Mike Vanderboegh, he'll be standing with us on the 7th. The speakers on the 7th are the state reps from the Freedom Agenda Team. I see some of you will be there as well. Please come find me (redhead, nose ring, tattoos). I want to shake your hand and say thank you, but right now it feels like we are standing alone while everyone else sits back and quarterbacks from their keyboard.
Some of you keep claiming that we are turning Washington into a battleground. What you haven't figured out yet is that it's already BEEN one for a long time. It's just that now, people are finally showing up to fight.
Forgive the interruption, but after being directed to this thread (AGAIN), I'm going to put a few thoughts here. Please also forgive the bullet points...again. (Come on you guys, why am I having to do this again?)
1. I have yet to see a single person on this thread---even those who claim that they were "there"---be able to say they were in the gallery at the time.
2. I WAS in the gallery. In fact, I was the first one in there. You can see me in the Carhartt coat, in the front, turned to the side, wearing a green watch cap. Therefore, I would posit that I am in a better position than anyone on this thread to tell you what happened inside the gallery.
3. That means I was also looking in the same direction as the supposed muzzle sweep. Which, by the way, was not occurring.
4. While out in front of the Capitol, we cleared our weapons before transferring them. I find it difficult to believe that a) the State Trooper standing 10 feet from me would have let ANYONE "sweep the crowd", b) anyone would have seen us if we DID do that. Why? Because they were staring in front of them at the speaker like a bunch of sheep who just got done eating. The only people looking up at us were the media, who left covering the rally to come stick their cameras in our faces and cover the REAL story, which at that particular moment was about 20 patriots violating I-594 in full view of the State Patrol on the Capitol steps. How do I know that? Because I was standing there, staring at all of you. Or, should I say, I was staring at the backs of your heads.
5. Contrary to what some folks are having a lot of fun spreading around (No names, of course), we didn't go into the gallery hooting and hollering. We walked in quietly, and then we noticed the legislators peeking out from behind the curtains like timid schoolgirls. Did some folks call out to them and ask what the deuce? Yup. They did. They also asked, rather loudly, if this was what our taxes were being spent for, and one guy told them to come out and earn their paycheck.
6. We did NOT, I repeat, DID NOT "wave our guns in the air." We lifted them for a photo. That's it. By the way, if a few folks on this thread can't figure out how someone could possibly lift their weapon over their head without flagging someone, then I suggest you take a gun safety course because it sounds like you need one.
7. Speaking of gun safety courses, I don't care how many people on this thread claim that their firearm instructor buddies said... I don't care. I was there. I saw them. I saw where the guns were pointed. I'm the liaison who talked to the WSP at the 13th rally, the 15th, and for the upcoming 7th rally. We coordinate with them before we come, we provide intel on people we think will be a problem (instigators and nutjobs), we talk to them while we're there, and we talk to them afterwards as well. This time was no different. And for the record, I personally called the WSP after the 15th rally and discussed the AR pistol with them. While I know most of the people who came with us, there were a few I did not. He was one of them, and he chose to ignore several directives by us before going in. That is his choice, and quite frankly, the photo of him and his rifle wasn't the problem. His inciting people to try and go down on to the House floor and put our feet on the desks was, and he got told in no uncertain terms to cut it out. I know that, because I'm the one who told him to stop it.
8. People can whine all day about our methods. The bottom line is this: The legislature, the speaker, the Lt. Gov, all of these people have two things in common. 1) They are charged with securing and maintaining the rights of the people, who according to the state Constitution and the US Constitution, hold all political power. 2) They do not have the right to tell the people when and where they can exercise their right to arms while in their own Capitol. That building does not belong to Jim Moeller, or Laurie Jinkins, or anyone else. It belongs to the people of the State of Washington, who have the right according to the supreme law of the land, to bear arms without infringement. It's that simple. If the legislature is so terrified of citizens sitting in the gallery with (UNLOADED!!!) rifles, then the question is not "why are you guys bringing rifles in the gallery?" The question is "what are our legislators doing that they would have anything to fear at all from armed constituents watching them do it?"
The answer is in the daily sheets outlining the bills being introduced. Do you know how many gun control bills have been introduced in the last few weeks alone? Are you aware that Laurie Jinkins, the head of the Judiciary committee, is purposely blocking pro-gun bills from leaving committee, while ramming through her own draconian bills meant to disarm the populace? Are you aware that she is a member of the national group of state legislators tasked with bringing to fruition a disarmament of the nation?
We are going back on the 7th of February, and we will defy their unconstitutional laws and arbitrary rules. They will arrest some of us---not only has the WSP stated that publicly, but my contact there has told me that personally. But what you don't understand is that we have no other choice. While others play with court cases that will take forever, and others call legislators who don't give a rat's rectum about what the will of the people is, someone has to go down there and STAND. That is what we're doing. That is what we will continue to do.
For those of you who know Mike Vanderboegh, he'll be standing with us on the 7th. The speakers on the 7th are the state reps from the Freedom Agenda Team. I see some of you will be there as well. Please come find me (redhead, nose ring, tattoos). I want to shake your hand and say thank you, but right now it feels like we are standing alone while everyone else sits back and quarterbacks from their keyboard.
Some of you keep claiming that we are turning Washington into a battleground. What you haven't figured out yet is that it's already BEEN one for a long time. It's just that now, people are finally showing up to fight.
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SovereigntyOrDeath
Regular Member
Thank you for your eye witness account. There have been other eyewitnesses on this thread. Mostly from the angle of "they did wrong". I am glad to see another side of the coin again with your testimony. I retracted my earlier opinions when I heard from the John Birch Society member. I stand with you, here, and on the 7th when I show up at the next rally. I am of the firm opinion that you all were expressing your 1st Amendment Rights to Free Political Speech. God Bless you and God Bless America!
Dave_pro2a
Regular Member
Every OCer who shoves OCing into the face of a public official -- by demanding signage changes, new training bulletins, etc -- has already turned it into a battle ground state.
Every police chief, mayor and parks/recs manager then complains to Olympia about preemption. The gears slowly turn and more and more behind the scenes political action takes place, and wills become galvanized.
It's as fair to say OCing has put our gun Rights at risk, just like political protest in the capital has. It's also fair to say our gun Rights would be at risk even if no one OCed and there were no protests.
Finger pointing = as easy as finger painting.
Dave_pro2a
Regular Member
Nope.
The finger pointing away always says "You're an idiot, and totally wrong,"
The three fingers pointing backwards always say:
1) You're awesome.
2) You're always right.
3) You're sexy and you know it.
Dave_pro2a
Regular Member
Zactly. Become a thorn in their paw, and they will want to pull it out.
Guess we should have gotten video. Because I was there, and I DID see muzzle sweeps.
My bet is the various filming crews who were hanging around probably have it somewhere buried in their 2-3 hours of footage.
The fact is most people openly admit the guy carrying the LAR had to be reminded at least once he was carrying it inappropriately. There were other violations as video might show.
I guess the advice to everyone for the next rally is video everything and then turn the evidence over to the WSP whenever someone starts brandishing and muzzle sweeping so we can get these fools locked up. I am tired of them terrorizing people with ignorant firearm handling. They obviously need some basic firearms safety training.
If you're going to OC fine, but do NOT brandish. Period.
My bet is the various filming crews who were hanging around probably have it somewhere buried in their 2-3 hours of footage.
The fact is most people openly admit the guy carrying the LAR had to be reminded at least once he was carrying it inappropriately. There were other violations as video might show.
I guess the advice to everyone for the next rally is video everything and then turn the evidence over to the WSP whenever someone starts brandishing and muzzle sweeping so we can get these fools locked up. I am tired of them terrorizing people with ignorant firearm handling. They obviously need some basic firearms safety training.
If you're going to OC fine, but do NOT brandish. Period.
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SovereigntyOrDeath
Regular Member
Sounds like you all need more folks that won't need to be inconvenienced with a thorn by following the bloody Washington state Constitution in the first place.
Dave_pro2a
Regular Member
A lot of magic tricks are about perspective.
How something looks one way from a certain angle, but really isn't that way.
You surely thought you saw something. Eye witnesses are the LEAST reliable when it comes to accuracy (as cited earlier on this thread).
davidmcbeth
Banned
That's because 1 "pro-gun crowd" is truly an anti-gun crowd. They don't want to admit it.
PeterNSteinmetz
Regular Member
I still wonder if, given the existing rule against using props in a protest in the galleries, that the efforts might be best spent working against I-594 directly , rather than attacking carry in the galleries. But then I'm not the one in WA state. Wish I could be there on the 7th, but family obligations that day.
Grim_Night
Regular Member
Because these are 2 separate issues.
The fact that some are defending unlawful brandishing and muzzle sweeping as open carry is absurd.
We had lawful OC during the 594 hearings. I wonder why these jerks couldn't replicate that form of carrying?
The Senate committee chair for the 594 hearings "requested" that people not OC to those hearings. People OCed anyway. But for some unknown reason, OC was not banned and nothing bad happened. Now explain that one hotshots...
We had lawful OC during the 594 hearings. I wonder why these jerks couldn't replicate that form of carrying?
The Senate committee chair for the 594 hearings "requested" that people not OC to those hearings. People OCed anyway. But for some unknown reason, OC was not banned and nothing bad happened. Now explain that one hotshots...
SovereigntyOrDeath
Regular Member
Some call it unlawful brandishing, some call it Free Political Speech.
I would suggest to get over it and do something constructive.
It appears you are behind the curve based on your avatar and sig. Time to move on now.
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sudden valley gunner
Regular Member
I didn't see anyone defending unlawful carry or muzzle sweeps.
I do see people blaming individual citizens for a loss of liberty not the people taking away the liberty.
I do see people blaming individual citizens for a loss of liberty not the people taking away the liberty.