21 feet?

Uhmmm ...???

kubel said:

No such law, but I believe the 21ft thing comes from variations of the Tueller Drill. The idea is that you can probably be attacked by a person with a non-projectile weapon in less time than you can draw if the attacker begins his attack at a distance of 21ft or less.

At my CPL class, reaction time vs distance covered by the attacker was demonstrated in a live-fire situation. You have a person (attacker) touch your back while you are facing down range with your gun holstered. As soon as he releases his touch on your back, you go for your gun and fire down range. Meanwhile the attacker is fleeing away from you as fast as possible. As soon as the first shots are fired, the attacker stops and drops. Then measure the distance. It's usually more than you would expect. You can do this the proper way with paint guns or airsoft (and proper safety gear). There are plenty of videos on youtube.

All the more reason to have a plan to kill everyone you see.

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May want to re-phase to: have a plan to defend against everyone you see...just saying, why give the anti's any more crap to throw at the fan?

Bikenut said:

Oh my goodness... did I just stir the pot?

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You're doing better than me. When I saw the thread title, I was trying to figure out whether this was going to be a joke thread about 10 1/2 people.

Glock9mmOldStyle said:

May want to re-phase to: have a plan to defend against everyone you see...just saying, why give the anti's any more crap to throw at the fan?

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I have heard this before, It may be a quote from someone... maybe miltary? Went something like

Be nice to everyone in the room, but also have a plan to kill them all.


lol

Oh, I dont know how the rest of you guys train, but everytime I withdraw my firearm its with a step to the side. Its good practice. Your chances of survival in a shootout, possibly a knife attack, goes up with a simple step to the side, due to tunnel vision of the attacker.

jeremy05 said:

Oh, I dont know how the rest of you guys train, but everytime I withdraw my firearm its with a step to the side. Its good practice. Your chances of survival in a shootout, possibly a knife attack, goes up with a simple step to the side, due to tunnel vision of the attacker.

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But, but, but, if I have tunnel vision, I won't see where he went.

Citizen said:

But, but, but, if I have tunnel vision, I won't see where he went.

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Is there no light at the end of your tunnel? :lol:

Grapeshot said:

Is there no light at the end of your tunnel? :lol:

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Grapeshot, you know well you are my guiding light on this forum!









If there is no light at the end of my tunnel, its only because you're a dim bulb.

jeremy05 said:

I have heard this before, It may be a quote from someone... maybe miltary? Went something like

Be nice to everyone in the room, but also have a plan to kill them all.


lol

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I was in Burger King unarmed a long long time ago with my wife and kids. There was this crazy guy (literally crazy) in the restaurant too. I scanned my table and immediate areas for any weapons. I figured if he posed an immediate threat I could kill him with one of the chairs.

I felt like I was in one of those movies. There are 200 items on this table I could kill you with, lol.

I don't know who made up the 21 ft notion but they need to get some experience with reality ,,,just like criminals don't carry open they damn sure don't advertise their intent 21 ft away it's more like when they are right on you ,,how do I know? well just say it's like a song ..I have friends in low places. if the criminal is showing his cards at distances like 21 ft. he is being nice or he more then likely he doesn't want the confrontation and is trying to scare you off cause he feels that the odds are not in his favor, so he must put on a show of power and will use it if cornered.
that is if his stance is that of territory, position,fear if he is in for enrichment,revenge,domanace or just meaness he won't act untill he's on ya.
a man that exposes his knife exposes his fear or trying to envolk fear for his own preservation. one that is set out to be sucessfull in his intent is gonna let you feel it before you see it. don't believe me...just ask a convict . they are great for realization training.
now crazy people well who knows what they are thinking ......their crazy

bushwacker said:

I don't know who made up the 21 ft notion but they need to get some experience with reality ,,,just like criminals don't carry open they damn sure don't advertise their intent 21 ft away it's more like when they are right on you ,,how do I know? well just say it's like a song ..I have friends in low places. if the criminal is showing his cards at distances like 21 ft. he is being nice or he more then likely he doesn't want the confrontation and is trying to scare you off cause he feels that the odds are not in his favor, so he must put on a show of power and will use it if cornered.
that is if his stance is that of territory, position,fear if he is in for enrichment,revenge,domanace or just meaness he won't act untill he's on ya.
a man that exposes his knife exposes his fear or trying to envolk fear for his own preservation. one that is set out to be sucessfull in his intent is gonna let you feel it before you see it. don't believe me...just ask a convict . they are great for realization training.
now crazy people well who knows what they are thinking ......their crazy

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People are odd creatures and many operate on the principle of "out of sight .. out of mind" or put a little differently in convoluted circular logic "if I don't see any danger then I am safe and I don't have to be afraid... so I better not even look for any danger because if I see it I'll get scared and I won't feel safe"..... so most folks just wander around secure in the belief that the harder they pretend there is nothing to be afraid of the safer they are....

Add that intentional desire for most folks to NOT see any danger to the bad guy's desire to sneak up on his victims in order to have the "tactical advantage of surprise" and most attacks are going to happen much closer than 21 feet.

But what does the 21 foot thing have to teach me personally? Keep my eyes, ears, nose, and spider sense on full scan at all times to identify potential problems long before they get anywhere near within 21 feet of me. Or, as the banner thingy on my cell phone tells me every time I open it......... "Stay Aware"

I know from when I taught the CPL class the 21 foot rule is considered a "danger zone". That being, anyone within 21 feet of you is likely to injure you before you are able to stop them.

I did a drill during our range training to show the importance of this distance. I would face down range with my pistol concealed at a target 21 feet away. (8 1/2" x 11" sheet of paper) I would ask the youngest, most fit person in the class to be my "attacker". I would give him/her an empty magazine. I would then have them place their hand on my shoulder facing the opposite direction of down range. I would instruct them when they are ready to take their hand off my shoulder and run. I would then "react" to the threat firing 2 rounds down range at my target. When I fired my first round the "attacker" would drop my empty magazine. Then when I fired my second shot the person would stop. After holstering my pistol I would pace off the distance to the magazine. This distance was almost always 21 feet. Then pace to the person, which was about 25 feet. I pride myself on the training I have obtained at Front Sight and I consider myself to be a well above average shooter. I would explain to my students I knew the scenario and was expecting to shoot. Even with all of this and my reaction time my first shot did not hit until the person closed that 21 feet. Not to mention I was shooting at an unarmed stationary target.

A great drill to try out on the range if you are so inclined. I could tell by the faces of my students this drill had a profound effect on my situational awareness lecture.

The story behind 21' rule - Tueller Drill. There are other references, but this is the most recognized.

Originating from research by Salt Lake City trainer Dennis Tueller and popularized by the Street Survival Seminar and the seminal instructional video "Surviving Edged Weapons," the "rule" states that in the time it takes the average officer to recognize a threat, draw his sidearm and fire 2 rounds at center mass, an average subject charging at the officer with a knife or other cutting or stabbing weapon can cover a distance of 21 feet.
http://www.policeone.com/edged-weap...ense-Is-or-was-the-21-foot-rule-valid-Part-1/

The important part of this to me is that you will likely never have enough distance between yourself and an aggressor. We need to exercise good SA and be willing/able to move when the moment occurs. The obvious disadvantage is that we are in a reactionary mode.

Glock9mmOldStyle said:

May want to re-phase to: have a plan to defend against everyone you see...just saying, why give the anti's any more crap to throw at the fan?

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I was sort of quoting the USMC joke, how they are polite, courteous, but have a plan to kill everyone they meet. That wording might only be appropriate in a joke, but the idea is sound.

jeremy05 said:

I have heard this before, It may be a quote from someone... maybe miltary? Went something like

Be nice to everyone in the room, but also have a plan to kill them all.


lol

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Although miss quoted and re quoted Jeff Cooper said that... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper

Sheldon said:

Although miss quoted and re quoted Jeff Cooper said that... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper

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I looked for the quote, but couldn't find it on that page

kubel said:

All the more reason to have a plan to kill everyone you see.

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Recognize the tongue-in-cheek and the message both.

Similarly some "military rules" that will bring a knowing smile:
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/militaryhumor/a/milrules.htm

Sheldon said:

Although miss quoted and re quoted Jeff Cooper said that... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper

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I couldn't find any reference to anyone that said this. I doubt Cooper said it. Do you have a cite for your comment? You often post things without a reference. This is okay if you start with "I think he said this" but to state it as a fact you need to back it up.

"Be polite. Be professional. But… have a plan to kill everyone you meet."

This line or a veriation of this line almost always apear in the many different versions of The Rules of Gunfighting that are posted all around the net.

It's basically taking situational awareness to the next level of situation preparedness.

Venator said:

I couldn't find any reference to anyone that said this. I doubt Cooper said it. Do you have a cite for your comment? You often post things without a reference. This is okay if you start with "I think he said this" but to state it as a fact you need to back it up.

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He use to be a regular contributor to one of the gun magazines I read ( I believe it was G&A), and saw it there many years ago, as to not posting a reference my memory is good so when it is important I post a link when not I expect you to do some of the work and look it up.......

But here are a few and not it's not in this list but use your search engine...http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/rkba/Cooper_Quotes.htm BTY there are 3 volumes in print of stuff that he said....