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Not excessive force?

TFred

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From the linked story:

In the Commonwealth, lost [sic] prevention can detain a subject for an hour and has civil immunity from doing so.
That officer can also lay hands on someone he believes to be shoplifter.
"You can use the exact degree of force that is absolutely necessary to accomplish the detention," explained Benjamin.​

What!?!?

So if some dime-an-hour, wanna-be cop decides that they think you stuffed a bolt in your pocket, they can kidnap you for an hour with the use of any level of force they can muster? This doesn't end well for someone who is prepared to defend themselves, who did not steal, and perceives such an attack as an imminent threat of bodily harm - especially if the loss prevention person is non-uniformed. Then it's just some maniac trying to kill you!

Is this guy lying to bolster his perceived authority? I have never heard anything like this before.

TFred
 

scouser

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In what way is this different from, or the same as, the receipt checkers at Wally World or at Greentop
 

Grapeshot

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§ 18.2-105.1 . Detention of suspected shoplifter.
A merchant, agent or employee of the merchant, who has probable cause to believe that a person has shoplifted in violation of § 18.2-95 or § 18.2-96 or § 18.2-103 , on the premises of the merchant, may detain such person for a period not to exceed one hour pending arrival of a law-enforcement officer.
 

TFred

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In what way is this different from, or the same as, the receipt checkers at Wally World or at Greentop
I am virtually certain that Wally World illegally profiles. I'm a middle-aged white male, and I have never been asked to show a receipt at Wally World. Of course, most of the people I do observe displaying their receipt seem to be responding to the fact that there is someone there to look at it, rather than any actual request to see it.. I just nod my head in their general direction, sometimes mumble something that could be hello or good bye, and never break stride.

TFred
 
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WalkingWolf

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Most states the LP officer must see the act, and not take eyes off the shoplifter until they are apprehended. Not sure about Va, but if he followed those rules I have no sympathy for her.
 

solus

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while i know this is VA and do not wish to sidetrack discussion, but unfortunately curiosity got the better of me and lo & behold much to my surprise NC also has a similar statute 14-72.1 including merchant LP immunity from civil repercussions yet JQPublic does not have citizen arrest qualified immunity to stop anybody.

WTF??

a query applicable in both states:

...if merchant's LP believes or perceives this gentleman has shoplifted and attempts to physically restrain an armed individual for detention for a 'reasonable' amount of time (specifically specified in NC statute) or 60 minutes (as specified by VA statute) might not like the outcome.

ipse
 

OC for ME

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Not excessive force? Apparently not.

VA, NC, and MO? It seems that many (all?) states have such a law. RSMo 537.125. Shoplifting--detention of suspect by merchant--liability presumption.

I will be contacting my reps to have a criminal penalty added for a wrongful detention.
 

davidmcbeth

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while i know this is VA and do not wish to sidetrack discussion, but unfortunately curiosity got the better of me and lo & behold much to my surprise NC also has a similar statute 14-72.1 including merchant LP immunity from civil repercussions yet JQPublic does not have citizen arrest qualified immunity to stop anybody.

WTF??

a query applicable in both states:

...if merchant's LP believes or perceives this gentleman has shoplifted and attempts to physically restrain an armed individual for detention for a 'reasonable' amount of time (specifically specified in NC statute) or 60 minutes (as specified by VA statute) might not like the outcome.

ipse

Nothing wrong with examining other state laws when looking at a specific state. It gives the readers a better view of the issue.
And for possible desired legislation in VA.

And courts also can look to other states' legislation too. I don't think its a sidetrack ... but a further examination of the issue.
 

utbagpiper

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How say you?

Impossible to say.

I didn't see where there was any footage prior to the woman being on the ground detained by the Loss Prevention Officer (LPO).

IF the LPO just tackled the woman without warning, that would be excessive and I think grounds for significant resistance by both the woman and anyone with her. Unknown men tackling women as they go about their business is a very serious matter, no?

OTOH, if the LPO made verbal contact first and the woman refused to stop, then I think the force is probably not excessive. We've had several reports in our (Utah) media recently of shoplifters getting very violent with LPOs. And once the thief leaves the premises (beyond the parking lot), I'd guess it is going to be all but impossible to ever make a case and recover the stolen property.

Given the woman's past record, and her refusal to even assert her innocence of the shoplifting charge, and her being charged with "shoving the loss prevention officer", I'm going to bet we have a case much closer to the latter than the former. How does she shove the LPO if he just tackles her without warning? Sounds to me like she was confronted by the LPO, got physical, and is now crying foul that the LPO returned the favor to physically detain her until the police arrived.

From the linked story:

"If I was doing anything wrong or I wasn't, he didn't have the rights to put his hands on me," said [the accused shoplifter].

The 31-year-old was charged with shoplifting and shoving the loss prevention officer.
...
"I’m innocent until proven guilty. But, even to that matter, if it was $5, $10, $1,500, there are ways ... I know there are ways around it," she said.
...
She has been convicted of petit larceny in the past.

I too am well past tired of paying more for what I buy to cover what the parasites among us think they have a right to steal. Moreover, we all suffer the inconvenience of more strict return / refund policies because thieves so often steal merchandise and then walk back into the store a short time later to return it for a refund.

How often is anyone wrongly accused of shoplifting by an LPO vs how often do shoplifters make a clean getaway?

Those who don't like being detained by LPOs should avoid shoplifting.

Charles
 

wrearick

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Impossible to say.

I didn't see where there was any footage prior to the woman being on the ground detained by the Loss Prevention Officer (LPO).

IF the LPO just tackled the woman without warning, that would be excessive and I think grounds for significant resistance by both the woman and anyone with her. Unknown men tackling women as they go about their business is a very serious matter, no?

OTOH, if the LPO made verbal contact first and the woman refused to stop, then I think the force is probably not excessive. We've had several reports in our (Utah) media recently of shoplifters getting very violent with LPOs. And once the thief leaves the premises (beyond the parking lot), I'd guess it is going to be all but impossible to ever make a case and recover the stolen property.

Given the woman's past record, and her refusal to even assert her innocence of the shoplifting charge, and her being charged with "shoving the loss prevention officer", I'm going to bet we have a case much closer to the latter than the former. How does she shove the LPO if he just tackles her without warning? Sounds to me like she was confronted by the LPO, got physical, and is now crying foul that the LPO returned the favor to physically detain her until the police arrived.

From the linked story:

"If I was doing anything wrong or I wasn't, he didn't have the rights to put his hands on me," said [the accused shoplifter].

The 31-year-old was charged with shoplifting and shoving the loss prevention officer.
...
"I’m innocent until proven guilty. But, even to that matter, if it was $5, $10, $1,500, there are ways ... I know there are ways around it," she said.
...
She has been convicted of petit larceny in the past.

I too am well past tired of paying more for what I buy to cover what the parasites among us think they have a right to steal. Moreover, we all suffer the inconvenience of more strict return / refund policies because thieves so often steal merchandise and then walk back into the store a short time later to return it for a refund.

How often is anyone wrongly accused of shoplifting by an LPO vs how often do shoplifters make a clean getaway?

Those who don't like being detained by LPOs should avoid shoplifting.

Charles

+1000
 

davidmcbeth

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I've been accused of shoplifting...(my momma taught me not to touch what isn't yours & I have followed this advice) ...

Ask a Libertarian to show a receipt when leaving a store and you'll get the Libertarian-required response

I've even have had a cop say that I stole his badge....

The only thing I have ever stolen is politicians' dreams of winning public office....and the hearts of the ladies
 
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utbagpiper

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I've been accused of shoplifting...(my momma taught me not to touch what isn't yours & I have followed this advice) ...

...

I've even have had a cop say that I stole his badge....

The only thing I have ever stolen is politicians' dreams of winning public office....and the hearts of the ladies

Sure you have....on all counts no doubt.


Ask a Libertarian to show a receipt when leaving a store and you'll get the Libertarian-required response.

And here I thought Libertarians were all about respecting the private property rights of others. If a business has a policy of customers showing receipts as they leave the store, why wouldn't a true l/Libertarian respect that policy by either adhering to it or shopping elsewhere?

Charles
 

davidmcbeth

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Sure you have....on all counts no doubt.




And here I thought Libertarians were all about respecting the private property rights of others. If a business has a policy of customers showing receipts as they leave the store, why wouldn't a true l/Libertarian respect that policy by either adhering to it or shopping elsewhere?

Charles

A customer is not part of the business. Whose property is it? Once I pay for it its mine ... I can eat the receipt if I want to. Nor is there any law saying that they have to provide a receipt.
 

Grapeshot

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OC for ME

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All links seem to apply to electronic fund transfers (credit/debit card). Cash transaction? A bar napkin could be the receipt. The LPO better have documented proof that she stole something. If the "goods" were not on her when he assaulted her he should be in deep kimchi...felony kimchi...and rightly so.

The affront to our liberty is the fact that a LPO is given similar powers to a cop. And it appears that he enjoys QI more so than a cop.

LPOs should be very careful if they decide to get their cop on and be 100% sure before they act...if they enjoy their good health.
 

Grapeshot

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All links seem to apply to electronic fund transfers (credit/debit card). Cash transaction? A bar napkin could be the receipt. The LPO better have documented proof that she stole something. If the "goods" were not on her when he assaulted her he should be in deep kimchi...felony kimchi...and rightly so.

The affront to our liberty is the fact that a LPO is given similar powers to a cop. And it appears that he enjoys QI more so than a cop.

LPOs should be very careful if they decide to get their cop on and be 100% sure before they act...if they enjoy their good health.
Yes, links apply primarily to electronic transfers. My "not quite" reply w/links was to david mc's statement that there were no laws applicable.

My personal position is that the instant I pay for goods, they are my personal property and I do not have to prove anything. The burden is on one who thinks the opposite, as is the potential liability for being wrong.

Twice the issue has been pushed with me. Both times all systems went full stop, when I responded, "Are you accusing me of shoplifting?"
 

solus

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All links seem to apply to electronic fund transfers (credit/debit card). Cash transaction? A bar napkin could be the receipt. The LPO better have documented proof that she stole something. If the "goods" were not on her when he assaulted her he should be in deep kimchi...felony kimchi...and rightly so.

The affront to our liberty is the fact that a LPO is given similar powers to a cop. And it appears that he enjoys QI more so than a cop.

LPOs should be very careful if they decide to get their cop on and be 100% sure before they act...if they enjoy their good health.


OC, they have Qualified Immunity...they do not have to be careful...this is what caused me to throw up in the corner. of the round room..yet JQPublic has no such statutory protection.

ipse
 

WalkingWolf

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OC, they have Qualified Immunity...they do not have to be careful...this is what caused me to throw up in the corner. of the round room..yet JQPublic has no such statutory protection.

ipse

The company is still liable, and it is much easier to get a LPO fired. :D Trust me I got one fired, took a while but I got Wally World to get rid of him. You never see that kind of response with LEO's usually takes years instead of months. Since LPO's do not get paid what LEO's do, and are mostly non union it does have an affect on them.

Plus if the company training specially sets down criteria as to proper laws for LP, and following them, they lose their liability. If an officer/LPO knows he is breaking the law, and it is clearly defined the courts have tossed QI.

Not sure about Va, but in NC the LPO MUST see the act, and cannot take eyes off that person until they clear the last chance to pay. This is asked by the magistrate when the LPO signs the papers against the accused. Every shoplifter I detained, and sometimes with force, I had to go to the magistrate after the arrest by police. They always asked for the details of the detaining, and those important steps.

There is no doubt that the lady in the OP shoplifted, prior record, refused to deny. It is clear she was resisting, and IMO the LPO used the proper amount of force. I had a SL try to punch me, he got knocked out.

IMO nobody should get QI, if they are wrong they are wrong, if right then they have no worries.
 
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