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A glimpse into what MI could be in the future...with your help.

FreeInAZ

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I had the good fortune to attend the annual Arizona Citizens Defense Leagues http://www.azcdl.org/ membership meeting held at the Sheraton Crescent Hotel's main hall in Phoenix AZ. This room can hold over 500 people. The hall was filled to the point that those who arrived late sat in chairs brought in by staff along the back wall. During the meeting it was announced that AzCDL has nearly 7,000 paid memberships! It was clear to me what this meant as I watched Arizona State Representatives and Senators most of which who were wearing pistols like the rest of us, jockey for the chance to speak to the crowd.

One thought kept reoccurring as I listened and watched; why can't Michigan follow this example? AzCDL is a relatively new organization less than 7 years old at this date in time. They began with a few core members focused on changing Arizona's laws. AzCDL started out recruiting members by manning tables at gun shows and still does so today. Less than 7 years later, with a large membership, a volunteer corp, and dedicated lobbying arm that advises the state legislature, Arizona has become one of a handful of Constitutional Carry states. While not perfect, Arizona has some of the most “pro-rights” gun laws on the books in the United States. From what I heard from the lawmakers on hand this trend will continue in the future.

Michigan has many fine pro-rights / pro-2A groups. However without a large group that can grab lawmakers by the belt buckle, and make them pay attention and hold that attention, the chances of any major changes fade from the near future.

I for one would be happy to see Michigan get the freedoms that we have in Arizona. On a closing note, I wonder as more law abiding citizens take responsibility for their safety if we will see the number of violent crimes continue to drop?

See recent data here:
http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/201...stories/2012/june/crimes_061112/crimes_061112

This flies in the face of many Michigan politicians who continue to parrot the old “anti” mantra of:
“more guns = more crime”.

Do you think the people of Michigan can put something like this together?

Regards,

FreeInAZ

Member: NRA,AzCDL,MCRGO,MGO,MOC
 

detroit_fan

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Mar 27, 2009
Messages
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Monroe, Michigan, USA
I have been saying the exact same thing for a long time now. It's not just AZ that has had success this way, Georgia Carry & Buckeye Firearms have both had a lot of success at the state level, and politicians in those states now seem to fear them more than the NRA.

We are diluting ourselves with MCRGO, MOC, & MGO. Not only would one large org have more members, it would have more resources to support lawsuits(like GC and BF do), and it would hold much more clout with state lawmakers. As it stands, who is really holding MI politicians responsible when they don't do what they say? With a large group that has thousands of members they can put a lot more heat on someone.

Buckeye Firearms helped get a lot of people elected in the last couple elections, and they have seen some very good gun laws passed as a result, because the politicians in OH fear them. They also had the funds to take the City of Cleveland all the way to the OH supreme court to fight Clevelands attack on preemption.

The day that this state puts together a very large, well funded state organization is the day things will start to get done here. Until then I think we will continue to see what we have seen the last 2 years, people who make promises to get elected then do nothing because they know no one is large & powerful enough to make them keep that promise.

ETA- this is not meant to be a knock on any of these groups, i think all have done good things and i think all try to get things done(well at least MOC and MGO do)
 
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DrTodd

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Ive read some posts on the AZ sub-forum regarding what it took to get constitutional carry and the same holds true here: we have met the enemy... and it is us.

The issue in Michigan is a little bit different then almost any other state. What drives Michigan gun legislation is hunting... specifically deer hunting. I've heard that the whole issue about firearms in cars really has more to do with poaching than anything else. Also, we tend to have many people who consider themselves "gun activists" because they hunt deer with a long gun... and can't imagine anyone carrying a pistol with them wherever they go. Plus, most Republicans on this side of the state, with Ottawa County being one if the most Republican in the nation, claim to be pro-2a but think that the 2nd amendment really only protects hunting. This is changing, but it is a very slow process.
Btw, I personally don't see Arizona as a mecca of gun rights if what I heard is true: have to unload firearm if in a car on school grounds and many more "firearms prohibited" signs (I've only seen 2 or 3 in Michigan since 2004.)

Michigan is certainly far from perfect but if you can deal with getting a permit, from what I understand, OC may be less understood by our fellow citizens here but is actually less restricted than it is there. But, I'd like to hear from those that have carried in both places.

That being said, I think if the OC community could get its act together, we could become a major force in this state and we would see real change. But, as has been borne out the past few months, we need to focus in the goals instead of expending so much energy fighting amongst ourselves.
 

detroit_fan

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Messages
1,172
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Monroe, Michigan, USA
I agree with a lot of what you said Dr Todd, but don't you think resources and influence would be expanded if 2A supporters weren't spread over so many smaller groups? Look at the CADL case, it has taken a lot just to try and fund that, it seems that with a larger group that had more members funds would be uncreased to fight cases like this?

How many times do we see posted on here "this is not right, but who has the money to take this court?". With a large group that has deeper coffers that issue would be alleviated some, don't you think?
 

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
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Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
I agree with a lot of what you said Dr Todd, but don't you think resources and influence would be expanded if 2A supporters weren't spread over so many smaller groups? Look at the CADL case, it has taken a lot just to try and fund that, it seems that with a larger group that had more members funds would be uncreased to fight cases like this?

How many times do we see posted on here "this is not right, but who has the money to take this court?". With a large group that has deeper coffers that issue would be alleviated some, don't you think?

Oh, very much so... money is, in many cases, a huge factor in politics and changing Michigan's gun law is truly "politics". It also doesn't hurt to use the legal system to change things... and this too takes money. The reasons given for 99% of the laws have been shown to be illogical... now we are dealing with "feelings"; feelings are some of the toughest human attributes to change.

My post wasn't intended to be critical of your point, rather it was a meager attempt to add the idea that solidarity requires that we begin to try to change how we, as 2a advocates and our organizations, treat one another. I think the money will come if people start to realize we are on the same side... any money sent to move along pro-2a legislation or legal actions helps all gun owners, even those who only use a firearm for 2 weeks every year.
 

detroit_fan

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Monroe, Michigan, USA
Oh, very much so... money is, in many cases, a huge factor in politics and changing Michigan's gun law is truly "politics". It also doesn't hurt to use the legal system to change things... and this too takes money. The reasons given for 99% of the laws have been shown to be illogical... now we are dealing with "feelings"; feelings are some of the toughest human attributes to change.

My post wasn't intended to be critical of your point, rather it was a meager attempt to add the idea that solidarity requires that we begin to try to change how we, as 2a advocates and our organizations, treat one another. I think the money will come if people start to realize we are on the same side... any money sent to move along pro-2a legislation or legal actions helps all gun owners, even those who only use a firearm for 2 weeks every year.

I didn't take it as criticism at all, I think you make some excellent points. I 100% agree, solidarity could easily help take things to the next level, and hopefully that is where we are headed.
 

FreeInAZ

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...

Btw, I personally don't see Arizona as a mecca of gun rights if what I heard is true: have to unload firearm if in a car on school grounds and many more "firearms prohibited" signs (I've only seen 2 or 3 in Michigan since 2004.)

You are correct, no Mecca here, but last year with the help of AzCDL a bill was passed by both state houses (in one session no less) that would have done away with the restrictions on carry in municipal buildings (where the majority of no carry signs are placed). However, our Republican Gov. Jan Brewer promptly vetoed it??? :uhoh: It will get passed we have been assured of this by the legislature :rolleyes: AzCDL is on the case.

On the flip side I can carry on a daily basis WITHOUT a CPL [AZ = CCW]. Discreetly (CC) or Open, in a car, at a 7-11 / Circle K that sells liquor without "magically" becoming a felon. Also I can get a CPL/CCW here for $60. 40+% less than it cost in MI. Go figure. :p
 

Yooper

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Aug 14, 2008
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Houghton County, Michigan, USA
Doing our part in the western U.P., state house and senate candidates from both parties have been A- rated or better (NRA) for many, many, many years. My current rep voted for 5225, and my current senator is a co-sponsor of SB59
 

DrTodd

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The NRA rating means nothing. They gave Mitt Romney an "A" somehow.

http://youtu.be/Kk1bJOpYUqE

I don't generally agree unless you mean that they rate people based on voting how the NRA would like s person to. What the NRA likes and what I like may be two entirely different things. Regarding their support of Romney by giving him an "A" is perhaps something they do to be politically expedient, but may call their whole grading system into question. Although Obama is definately not "pro 2A", Romney isn't any better in my opinion. Reminds me of a popular folk saying...something about a silk purse and a sow's ear.
 

G22

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May 16, 2010
Messages
74
Location
Michigan, USA
Once upon a time, there used to be a organization with clout in Michigan. It had hard working, true to the core, 2A activists with several chapters state wide. I believe there were well over 10k paid members.

Then the wheels fell off...New leadership took over and they sued some members, and threatened and revoked paid memberships from all others who dared ask any questions. They endorsed anti-gun candidates, and cherry picked their BoD members from a local union. The new president started taking a salary from membership dues. The forums, the all important hub for member communication, was shut down.

The end.
 

FreeInAZ

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Well that stinks! I'll have to let my membership expire.:uhoh:

The question still stands, can the good people of Michigan put a group together?


Hell I'll sign up. I have a dog in this fight as many family members & good OC friends are still subject to WONKY LOCAL GUN BOARDS (see Wayne County) and their whims.

No such thing here the state police (DPS) run it all.
 

TheQ

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Aug 2, 2010
Messages
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Lansing, Michigan
Too many divergent interests.

Most hunters don't care about carry.

Most CCers don't care about OC.

Divide an conquer, works every time.
 

FreeInAZ

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Too many divergent interests.

Most hunters don't care about carry.

Most CCers don't care about OC.

Divide an conquer, works every time.

Well maybe now would be a good time to try framing the issues in a different light?

In AZ this was done from a stand point of public safety & rights. Here people (most) get that guns don't murder people criminals do. You'll note the words used: safety & rights vs. pro gun, and so on. It's all a PR campaign with most of the public. If you give them the chance, most get it.

Detroit is a prime example of a brain-washed people. In a city that bucks the national trend and violent crime - particularly murder, is on the rise you have people standing in lines waiting to turn in their only firearm for home defense for a $25 food or gas card? :eek:
 

OC4me

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Jan 14, 2009
Messages
750
Location
Northwest Kent County, Michigan
Once upon a time, there used to be a organization with clout in Michigan. It had hard working, true to the core, 2A activists with several chapters state wide. I believe there were well over 10k paid members.

Then the wheels fell off...New leadership took over and they sued some members, and threatened and revoked paid memberships from all others who dared ask any questions. They endorsed anti-gun candidates, and cherry picked their BoD members from a local union. The new president started taking a salary from membership dues. The forums, the all important hub for member communication, was shut down.

The end.

+1

I was a member of MCRGO (from about 2001 or so) and went to one of their dinners. Wayne LaPierre attended and gave a speech along with many other local speakers including sheriffs, prosecutors, Judges and of course politicians. I was really impressed, not a red-neck among the several hundred in attendance. For a few years, MCRGO was getting pro-Gun legislation passed left and right, then promptly self-destructed. They haven't accomplished a damned thing since then. As far as I heard, they disintegrated over a fight to control the member list and obviously never recovered.

Lesson to be learned. Go look at the structure and charter of the Virginia Citizens's Defense League, the Buckeye Firearms Association, the Arizona Citizen's Defense League, etc. figure out how they are set up and run. Have clear unambiguous rules about who controls the membership list, how the leadership is elected (or sacked), dues collected and transparently accounted for, meetings scheduled, announced and conducted and so on. An effective organization can't be run by the seat of the founder's pants for long (that is how squabbles start). Oh and it also wouldn't hurt to explicitly state in the charter that the organization supports all firearms rights regardless of what the board of directors favors.
 
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TheQ

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Aug 2, 2010
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Lansing, Michigan
+1

I was a member of MCRGO (from about 2001 or so) and went to one of their dinners. Wayne LaPierre attended and gave a speech along with many other local speakers including sheriffs, prosecutors, Judges and of course politicians. I was really impressed, not a red-neck among the several hundred in attendance. For a few years, MCRGO was getting pro-Gun legislation passed left and right, then promptly self-destructed. They haven't accomplished a damned thing since then. As far as I heard, they disintegrated over a fight to control the member list and obviously never recovered.

Lesson to be learned. Go look at the structure and charter of the Virginia Citizens's Defense League, the Buckeye Firearms Coalition, the Arizona Citizen's Defense League, etc. figure out how they are set up and run. Have clear unambiguous rules about who controls the membership list, how the leadership is elected (or sacked), dues collected and transparently accounted for, meetings scheduled, announced and conducted and so on. An effective organization can't be run by the seat of the founder's pants for long (that is how squabbles start). Oh and it also wouldn't hurt to explicitly state in the charter that the organization supports all firearms rights regardless of what the board of directors favors.

What is the actions of an organization other than the actions of its Board of Directors? If you want a good organization, you have to have a good Board of Directors. If you want quality directors, the best way to get them is to have multiple people step up.

I haven't decided if I will run again or not. If I choose not to, I will soon be taking applications for successors to work closely with me for several months.
 
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