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Just to be clear. If you are contacted by police for Open Carry...

sudden valley gunner

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
Difdi said:
You should probably note that this is exclusive to Washington state. There are in fact states where they don't have to arrest you to demand you identify yourself (some even require you produce actual ID). Refusing to do so in those states is indeed illegal. Not everyone who reads and comments on the Washington forum is from Washington, after all.
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Cite? There are no states that require you to carry ID (unless engaging in certain activities like driving), there are some that require you to identify yourself. Like Nevada, hence Hibbel vs. Nevada. They still have to have PC or RAS, and in the judges own ruling if identifying yourself may incriminate you may have a case for it violating your 5th. Another example of courts watering down our rights and furthering the power of the state.

California's requirement to carry ID was struck down. Kolender vs Lawson.

Me: Am I being arrested? If yes, can you state the PC or Ras? If yes total cooperation, if no, then I will tell them I won't physically resist but do not consent to the arrest.

If no (to arrest), Am I being detained? If yes, can you state PC or RAS? If yes, again cooperation, if it is a valid statement. IF not, I say, 'I do not consent and will be walking away, if you choose to arrest me I do not consent but will not resist.' If they say nothing I walk away. IF they arrest me I sue them.

I will not tolerate "badgering" by police anymore. If they make it clear I am not free to leave, my mouth is shut.
 
gogodawgs

gogodawgs

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Messages
5,669
Location
Federal Way, Washington, USA
sudden valley gunner said:
Cite? There are no states that require you to carry ID (unless engaging in certain activities like driving), there are some that require you to identify yourself. Like Nevada, hence Hibbel vs. Nevada. They still have to have PC or RAS, and in the judges own ruling if identifying yourself may incriminate you may have a case for it violating your 5th. Another example of courts watering down our rights and furthering the power of the state.

California's requirement to carry ID was struck down. Kolender vs Lawson.

Me: Am I being arrested? If yes, can you state the PC or Ras? If yes total cooperation, if no, then I will tell them I won't physically resist but do not consent to the arrest.

If no (to arrest), Am I being detained? If yes, can you state PC or RAS? If yes, again cooperation, if it is a valid statement. IF not, I say, 'I do not consent and will be walking away, if you choose to arrest me I do not consent but will not resist.' If they say nothing I walk away. IF they arrest me I sue them.

I will not tolerate "badgering" by police anymore. If they make it clear I am not free to leave, my mouth is shut.
Click to expand...

There is no obligation of a law enforcement officer to give you either probable cause or articulable suspicion at the time of arrest or detainment. They can arrest you without comment and take you to the jail. They can then file the paperwork for the charge. Keep in mind the prosecuting attorney can modify the charge or add to the charge.

Now, nearly officer likes to exercise their training (i.e. power) to ask you questions to get you to incriminate themselves and they may or may not tell you the PC/RAS or they may mislead or lie to you about PC/RAS. Be aware and shut your mouth if you think you are being tricked.
 
sudden valley gunner

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
gogodawgs said:
There is no obligation of a law enforcement officer to give you either probable cause or articulable suspicion at the time of arrest or detainment. They can arrest you without comment and take you to the jail. They can then file the paperwork for the charge. Keep in mind the prosecuting attorney can modify the charge or add to the charge.

Now, nearly officer likes to exercise their training (i.e. power) to ask you questions to get you to incriminate themselves and they may or may not tell you the PC/RAS or they may mislead or lie to you about PC/RAS. Be aware and shut your mouth if you think you are being tricked.
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\

There is also no authority for them to arrest you without telling you. and there has been hints in a few court cases judges don't like it, yet they haven't ruled on it yet. It's why I say I won't resist. Government powers are numerated and their authority must be granted. Just because there is no law that says they can't doesn't mean they can. And as I pointed out before case law and the constitution may make it illegal it just hasn't really been ruled upon yet. A federal judge expressed his concerns of FBI not telling a suspect his true reason for arrest for several hrs. So I won't resist, but I am not consenting. The "formal" charges is what is read to you by a judge. (Often giving the prosecutor more time to make more stuff up to try to scare you into a plea)

I have experienced officers lying about PC etc. We must all assume that non consensual encounters with officers they are lying. But even if they lie about it and you know they are lying, if you resist the encounter it won't look good, because of the way the courts have ruled about that. I don't care if an officer lies to me I will comply and fight that later in court. They should be fired for lying and if you proved an officer lied your case is thrown out, he becomes a Brady cop, and his testimony is pretty much tainted for the rest of his career. But yep the best advice like you mentioned is to keep your trap shut. :D

Should have seen how uncomfortable Bellingham prosecutor got when I started asking about Brady vs. Maryland. They have to by law (case law) tell you if that officer has been untruthful in the past. So if anybody gets pulled over by Whatcom County Deputies Freeman, or Vanderveen let me know I have proof of their lies and a local man won a settlement from the county because of it.

SECTION 1 POLITICAL POWER. All political power is inherent in the people, and governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed, and are established to protect and maintain individual rights.
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P.S. I am not a lawyer but have been doing research on this, along with heavy study of Blackstone law, and our Constitution. So this is not advise to anyone, just my personal reason on what I would do.
 
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amzbrady

amzbrady

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2009
Messages
3,521
Location
Marysville, Washington, USA
1245A Defender said:
The very best police stops,
begin with the cop saying,
i need to talk to you because,
you are carrying a gun!

The cop has admitted that he has no RAS of a crime,
he has admitted that you are not suspected of a crime,
the cop has admitted that he has no authority to detain you!

Thant him for his concern.
Say No Thank You, turn and walk away!

IANAL, but this work, as it should, every time!
Click to expand...

And let him know you'll call him if you need backup.

sudden valley gunner said:
Cite? There are no states that require you to carry ID (unless engaging in certain activities like driving), there are some that require you to identify yourself. Like Nevada, hence Hibbel vs. Nevada. They still have to have PC or RAS, and in the judges own ruling if identifying yourself may incriminate you may have a case for it violating your 5th. Another example of courts watering down our rights and furthering the power of the state.

California's requirement to carry ID was struck down. Kolender vs Lawson.

Me: Am I being arrested? If yes, can you state the PC or Ras? If yes total cooperation, if no, then I will tell them I won't physically resist but do not consent to the arrest.

If no (to arrest), Am I being detained? If yes, can you state PC or RAS? If yes, again cooperation, if it is a valid statement. IF not, I say, 'I do not consent and will be walking away, if you choose to arrest me I do not consent but will not resist.' If they say nothing I walk away. IF they arrest me I sue them.

I will not tolerate "badgering" by police anymore. If they make it clear I am not free to leave, my mouth is shut.
Click to expand...

Personal crime? Police crime? police city? possible crime? Positive crankcase?...
Oh personal computer... Are you a PC or Mac.
View attachment 6837
 
E

END_THE_FED

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2010
Messages
925
Location
Seattle, Washington, USA
Lovenox said:
"Assuming you are just walking down the street or whatever you only have to identify yourself if the cop needs to write a citation. During a "casual encounter" you can refuse to provide your name."

Who makes the determination on whether it is a "casual encounter" or RAS based??
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I guess a mix of the law, the court, the cop, and yourself. I guess the cop basically decides if he is treating it as a "casual encounter" or if he has RAS. But also if you reasonably feel you are not free to leave then you are being detained.

Depending on the circumstances. What I would do, is ask "Am I being detained?". If he does not answer in the affirmative, I say "have a nice day" and walk away.
 
Fallschirjmäger

Fallschirjmäger

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
3,823
Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
Difdi said:
You should probably note that this is exclusive to Washington state. There are in fact states where they don't have to arrest you to demand you identify yourself (some even require you produce actual ID). Refusing to do so in those states is indeed illegal. Not everyone who reads and comments on the Washington forum is from Washington, after all.
Click to expand...

Really? Name Just One state that requires me to carry government issued identification when not performing any licensed activity.


amzbrady said:
What if they say they will arrest you for obstruction, if you dont provide ID? They could also say I am going to write you a citation so I need your ID, then run it and not write up anything, just using that as a ploy to get you to comply. Then you are ID'd, They are tricky that way.
Click to expand...
"Officer, I would feel terrible if I were to obstruct your investigation in any way. As a matter of fact, I feel so strongly about NOT obstructing you, that I'm going to wait waaayyyy over there and not say a single word because I'm so concerned. When you get done, would you let me know, please, I might have a few questions."
 
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amlevin

amlevin

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2007
Messages
5,937
Location
North of Seattle, Washington, USA
gogodawgs said:
Now, nearly officer likes to exercise their training (i.e. power) to ask you questions to get you to incriminate themselves and they may or may not tell you the PC/RAS or they may mislead or lie to you about PC/RAS. Be aware and shut your mouth if you think you are being tricked.
Click to expand...

This would require one to overcome one of man's basic instincts. The one that compels them to "explain" or otherwise run their mouth. Keeping quiet is one of life's most difficult tasks. Especially when being intimidated by a Police Officer.

Wonder what would happen if you merely handed the Officer a card like this:

dgL7Bh3I1n36epawsiS2bIyvo1_400.png
 
C

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
rustell said:
Hey guys...I'm new here. I know about PC (probable cause) . What is RAS..?
Click to expand...

Welcome to Open Carry dot Org!! (OCDO).

As mentioned above, RAS = Reasonable Articulable Suspicion.

RAS is a legal term for a standard of suspicion lower than probable cause.

Court opinions define the standard.

One of the early cases where RAS is taking shape in court-made law is Terry vs Ohio. Basically, the US Supreme Court said that it is constitutional for a police officer to temporarily seize a person to investigate him for a crime if the cop has enough reason to think the person is, was, or is about to be involved in a crime. I think part of that court decision includes that it has to be more than a hunch on the cop's part, but it might be a later court decision that clears that up.

A temporary seizure of a person done under this Terry doctrine is referred to by several names: Terry Stop. Stop. Detention. Detainment.

Terry v Ohio: http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0392_0001_ZO.html

US vs Mendenhall. This is a case where the court named some circumstances that show whether a seizure has occurred--in the context of a Terry Stop:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0446_0544_ZO.html

Also, you can look it up on Wiki to find the full scope of RAS and limits on cops, such as they are. Now, wiki isn't the most reliable source. But! Wiki legal articles usually have footnotes where the court opinions are named. Meaning, you can use Wiki to lead you to other court cases.
 
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