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sharkey

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The bill, HB 1047, would also add protections for people who fire a warning shot to scare away an attacker.


Warning shots are dumb; they endanger the innocent.
 
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MKEgal

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Fuq?

How about a fair use quote, explanation of what it's about, etc.?
So far, all I know is:
The bill, HB 1047, would also add protections for people who fire a warning shot to scare away an attacker.
Which I think is a bad idea.
You don't fire unless you think your life or well-being (or that of an innocent other person) is in danger.
If you're not in danger, you don't fire.
If you have time for a warning shot, then obviously you don't feel endangered, so you're not justified in using deadly force.
Any gunshot is deadly force, and that bullet has to go somewhere.

So I'm inclined to go vote no.
 

eye95

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The question is overbroad, so I took it to mean expanding the law as proposed in the bill. Since the bill includes warning shots, I cannot support that expansion. I voted NO.
 

StogieC

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Warning shots are usually a bad idea, but they are not the use of lethal force when d

The question is overbroad, so I took it to mean expanding the law as proposed in the bill. Since the bill includes warning shots, I cannot support that expansion. I voted NO.

So, what you are saying is that you think that people who shoot the ground rather than their attacker when they come under a violent criminal attack, that that person should go to jail for 20 years... Because that's the current law in Florida.

Warning shots are usually a bad idea, but they are not the use of lethal force when done defensively. People who are defending themselves should not face 20 years in jail for shooting the ground rather than their attacker.
 

StogieC

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So, what you are saying is that you think that people who shoot the ground rather than their attacker when they come under a violent criminal attack, that that person should go to jail for 20 years... Because that's the current law in Florida.

Warning shots are usually a bad idea, but they are not the use of lethal force when done defensively. People who are defending themselves should not face 20 years in jail for shooting the ground rather than their attacker.


Read the Bill, not the Article. As usual, the press is misrepresenting the legislation. http://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2013/1047
 

skidmark

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So, what you are saying is that you think that people who shoot the ground rather than their attacker when they come under a violent criminal attack, that that person should go to jail for 20 years... Because that's the current law in Florida.

Warning shots are usually a bad idea, but they are not the use of lethal force when done defensively. People who are defending themselves should not face 20 years in jail for shooting the ground rather than their attacker.

If you need to draw the attention of a person to the fact that you are presently armed and ready to put a hole in them, shooting into the ground is IMHO a poor way to do so. Verbal warning? Yes. Warning shot? No. - If for no other reason than I've just wasted a round I might find out too late I needed.

Self defense should not be a game of bluster and "muscle flexing". I'm a short, pudgy, old cripple who got that way by not going around telling everybody how mean and bad I could be. Most stuff was not worth the effort of fighting over, so I walked away. When I could not walk away I did not announce what I was going to do and demonstrate I had the capability and capacity to do it - I just did it.

If I can get you to stop 30 or even 50 feet away (or back up that much) I'll be happy to take the risk that you will then try to rush me. I think (hope) I can get a shot off, and that it will be somewhere COM, before you wrap me up and overcome me.

OTOH, if we limit the bill to protecting the defensive display of a firearm, I would support it.

stay safe.
 

notalawyer

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So, what you are saying is that you think that people who shoot the ground rather than their attacker when they come under a violent criminal attack, that that person should go to jail for 20 years... Because that's the current law in Florida.

Warning shots are usually a bad idea, but they are not the use of lethal force when done defensively. People who are defending themselves should not face 20 years in jail for shooting the ground rather than their attacker.

Have there been any cases when someone was prosecuted for a 'warning shot' when deadly force was authorized?
 

StogieC

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Have there been any cases when someone was prosecuted for a 'warning shot' when deadly force was authorized?

A warning shot it not the use of deadly force. It is a lesser display of force. That's all that this bill clarifies about warning shots and other defensive displays. Warning shots are actually a small part of the bill. But, there have been many cases:

Orville Lee Wollard III

Orville has worked his entire life to better himself. After earning an Associate’s degree, he got a Bachelor’s degree in Business. He attended night school while maintaining a full-time job to earn his Master’s degree in Business Management and Organizational Behavior. He has been employed as everything from being a computer technician with the Home Shopping Network to managing a photo processing lab. In all of his positions, Orville was quickly promoted because of his strong work ethic.

In 2008, 53-year-old Orville was living happily with his wife, Sandy, and their two daughters in Florida. He held a steady job as a human resources specialist at Sea World. Unfortunately, Sandy became very ill with serious heart problems. Their youngest daughter began acting out, using drugs and running away with her older boyfriend for days at a time. The boy was known for his lengthy criminal record and violent outbursts. It wasn’t long before he began to abuse Orville’s daughter, punching and yelling at her, and stealing prescription pills, jewelry and money from the family’s home. Orville did his best to try to help his daughter while caring for his wife and maintaining his job. He called the police repeatedly and issued Amber Alerts when his daughter would disappear. Unfortunately, the authorities told him they could not do anything to stop the boyfriend, as he was a minor.

On May 14, Orville received a panicked call at work from his wife, who reported that the boy was at their home causing trouble. He hurriedly returned to the house, where he found the boy on the porch and his daughter with a black eye. When Orville told him to leave, the boyfriend attacked him, ripping out stitches from Orville’s recent surgery, and ran off with his daughter. The two returned several hours later and the boy began shoving Orville’s daughter around the Wollards’ home. She cried as Sandy and the eldest daughter screamed for Orville to help.

Angry and scared for his family’s safety, Orville felt helpless. The boy had already outmatched him in a physical fight and the police had said multiple times they could do nothing about the situation. Orville took his legally registered pistol and confronted the boy in the living room, again asking him to leave. The boyfriend stopped assaulting Orville’s daughter and came into the living room. He punched a hole in the wall, smiled at Orville, and began moving towards him. Orville, who had firearms training as a former member of the auxiliary police force, shot a bullet into the wall next to the boyfriend to scare him. No one was hurt and the boy finally left. Orville’s daughter was later admitted to a hospital after attempting suicide. Several days later, Orville was arrested - the boyfriend had called the police to report him for aggravated assault.

Orville spent a year in county jail on a $285,000 bond. Believing he was within his rights to defend his family with a legal firearm, Orville rejected a plea deal for five years of probation and pled not guilty. At trial, Orville was not allowed bring up the many problems the Wollard family had experienced with the boyfriend; he was only permitted to say the boy was “no longer welcome” at his home. The jury rejected Orville’s self-defense claim and found him guilty of possessing and discharging a firearm, triggering Florida’s 20-year mandatory minimum for aggravated assault with a weapon.

The officer who prepared Orville’s sentencing score sheet begged the government to recognize the extenuating circumstances of the case. Additionally, the investigating officer stated that he believed Orville’s daughter and the boyfriend had used this incident solely to get back at Orville for trying to keep them apart. Unfortunately, Judge Donald Jacobsen had no choice but to sentence Orville to two decades behind bars.
Judge Jacobsen said:
This [sentence] is obviously excessive…if it weren’t for the mandatory minimum…I would use my discretion and impose some separate sentence, having taken into consideration the circumstances of the event, but I think I am duty-bound to apply the law as it has been enacted by the legislature.

After Orville’s incarceration, the Wollard family split up. Sandy and Orville’s younger daughter were forced to move in with relatives in Wisconsin after their home went into foreclosure. He has not seen them once since his imprisonment. In an interview with a local paper, Sandy said, “I am just crushed. I depended on him for a lot of things. He is my best friend.” Both of Orville’s daughters, now 18 and 20, and even the victim, have written letters to Governor Rick Scott begging him to overturn Orville’s 20-year mandatory sentence.

On the day of his sentencing, Orville spoke before the Court:
"I’m amazed. I’m stunned. I have spent my life pursuing education [and] helped the community. [T]hen one day this person breaks into my house…he continues to do this, he assaults my daughter, he threatens me, I protect myself. [N]o one is injured in this whole thing and I’m going to prison and the drug dealer’s on the street. And again, with all respect to [the Court], I would expect this from the former Soviet Union…not the United States."

Erik Weyant

22-year-old Erik worked long hours renovating homes and pouring concrete. As the manager of his own business, Erik’s work schedule kept him busy with little time for socializing. In early 2006, Erik was introduced to Amy (name changed) through mutual friends. They began a relationship, often meeting at a local bar at the end of the day to talk and unwind with friends. On one occasion, a man approached the group and began to flirt with Amy. Every time Erik and Amy went to the bar afterwards, the same man would show up to talk to her. The man made his interest in Amy clear and grew increasingly aggressive toward Erik.

One night, the man followed Amy in his car and begged her to go home with him. Frightened, Amy repeatedly declined and quickly left to meet Erik. Several days later on April 6, 2006, the man showed up at the bar and threatened Erik. It was already late and Erik decided to go home to avoid any further trouble. He exited the bar alone. Walking out to his truck in the parking lot, Erik was confronted and threatened by the man along with a group of five others. As Erik moved to his car, the group rushed toward him. Fearing a beating or worse, Erik jumped into his vehicle and scrambled to start it. He attempted to pull out of the parking lot but the group moved in front of the vehicle to block his exit. Erik frantically pulled his handgun from the console and fired warning shots. The men dispersed and he was able to drive away.

Several months later, Erik was arrested and charged with aggravated assault with a firearm without intent to kill. He went to trial to prove that he had acted purely in self-defense. However, one of the men testified that Erik had pointed the gun at him, instead of in the air. The entire group admitted they had been drinking heavily all night.

Though no one was hurt in the incident, Erik was found guilty of aggravated assault with a firearm without intent to kill, a charge that carries a mandatory 20-year prison sentence under Florida’s “10-20-Life” law.

Judge Neil Roddenbery looked for a way out of the mandatory minimum in Erik’s case but was ultimately forced to impose a 20-year term on a young man with no criminal record. At Erik’s sentencing, he stated:

" nfortunately the legislature has mandated a particular sentence in this matter…the legislature has taken away any consideration by the Trial Court of the merits of a case…the history of a person…The only sentence I can impose in this matter is a 20-year prison sentence. It does not matter whether I agree with that…I don’t find that I have any room to deviate from what the legislature has said that the sentence has to be."

Erik has now been incarcerated for nearly six years. He writes, “Everything I have worked for, all my hopes and dreams, goals and ambitions, have been destroyed. I was a productive, 23-year-old member of society…I had no criminal record, not even an arrest, and my firearm was registered and legal here in Florida.”
Erik’s imprisonment has been especially hard on his family who live almost seven hours away from the facility where he is incarcerated. Erik’s dad compares his son’s incarceration to “a slow cancer” that “eats away at you a little more each day.”


Ronald Thompson

Ronald Thompson is a 100% disabled veteran who spent 14 years in the Army (1966-1980). After his service, Thompson remained active in veterans’ affairs. In addition to acting as a Deputy Representative for AMVETS, Thompson accumulated 5,532 hours volunteering at the VA hospital in Lake City, Florida, primarily acting as recreational therapy coordinator at the VA’s nursing home.

Thompson was 62-years-old in September 2009 when he visited a friend of his, an elderly woman in Keystone Heights, Florida, at the woman’s daughter’s home. During his visit, his friend’s 17-year-old grandson, who had been violent toward her in the past, came by with three friends, and wanted to go into his mother’s home. Having been instructed by her daughter not to let him into the house, Thompson’s friend refused them entry. Her grandson began yelling and cursing at his grandmother. Events escalated to the point where Mr. Thompson felt his friend was in danger. He grabbed his pistol (for which he had a conceal-carry license) and fired two warning shots into the ground to scare off the 17-year-old.
Thompson was charged with four counts of aggravated assault by State Attorney Angela Corey. He turned down a three-year plea offer, believing that, due to his failing health, he would be dead in three years. Mr. Thompson has diabetes, high blood pressure, and he'd had a heart attack. He also believed that if a jury heard all the facts they'd acquit him, particularly in light of the grandson’s history of violence toward his grandmother.

Thompson was convicted. However, the sentencing judge in his case, Judge John Skinner, refused to impose the 20-year mandatory minimum required by Florida’s 10-20-Life law, calling the sentence unconstitutional and a "crime in itself." Judge Skinner imposed a three-year mandatory minimum instead. The prosecutor appealed the sentence and the appeals court overturned Judge Skinner's sentence, ruling that the 20 year mandatory minimum must be imposed.

Since his incarceration, Mr. Thompson’s health has continued to deteriorate. He is apparently nearly blind, seeing only shadows. He walks with a cane and has had prostate surgery and surgery to remove two tumors from his face. He continues to struggle with diabetes and high blood pressure, neither of which is under control.

In June 2012, Mr. Thompson's sentencing judge reviewed the case and concluded the jury instructions were incorrect at Mr. Thompson's trial. The judge ordered Mr. Thompson to be immediately released from prison. Since his release Mr. Thompson has received treatment for various ailments at a local VA hospital, and his health has improved. He was originally scheduled to be retried on the same aggravated assault charges in November 2012, but his trial has been postponed at least until April 2013.
 
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conandan

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I don't think firing a warning shot is a good idea. I would say that showing the firearm is just as good of a warning with out having to fire. I know everyone has their own opinion but I think it would in danger people
 

StogieC

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I don't think firing a warning shot is a good idea. I would say that showing the firearm is just as good of a warning with out having to fire. I know everyone has their own opinion but I think it would in danger people

Agreed, the bill is not endorsing warning shots. They are usually are a bad idea. But they should not force a judge to give an automatic 20 years.
 
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notalawyer

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A warning shot it not the use of deadly force. It is a lesser display of force. That's all that this bill clarifies about warning shots and other defensive displays. Warning shots are actually a small part of the bill. But, there have been many cases:


But I asked specifically about anyone being charged when deadly force was authorized.

Aggravated Assault is not self defense, as these agenda driven stories show. These individuals failed to offer any facts in trial that would show a self defense, or defense of another person, counter-claim to the assault charge.

The laws we have in place now are perfectly adequate, IMO. (We would be better served to focus on the minimum mandatory sentence law instead.)

Also, at first glance, this bill looks to have been hastily written by someone unfamiliar with proper statutory construction.

I seriously doubt it will be successful and it it does pass will bring with it, a bunch of unintended consequences.
 

conandan

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Absolutely they need to address these blanket laws and allow them to take into account the situation. There's no question every situation is different and should allow consideration of the facts before applying a sentence.
 

OC for ME

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Did not vote at all. Accepting the fact that the news article may be misrepresenting the current law.

Right now a Stand Your Ground defense can only be claimed if a person uses deadly force to protect themselves.
Here is the pdf

bill http://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2013/1047/BillText/Filed/PDF

It reads very well and seems to cover the bases. It is not crystal clear as to whether or not a "warning shot" could be lawful if defending a member of the family. It is not crystal clear in current law that you could not be liable for defending a family member. There are references to "another" or "others" but I am not well convinced that the act of defending the family member is not prosecutable.

Never claim a warning shot. I missed with my first shot and the perp ran away. No law against being a poor shot.....is there?
 

KYGlockster

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He is saying that firing a warning shot into the ground instead of into an attacker when it would have been justifiable is a better option for many people. I don't want to kill anyone, and I am sure most others don't either. If I am being charged by a guy with a knife or a ball bat, it should be my choice to fire my gun into the ground instead of into his chest if I have the time to do so and try to ward off the attacker. I can assure you that the sound of a gun-shot is much more threatening than just the gun. If the shot into the ground doesn't stop the attack, then you can fire at the attacker.

He isn't talking about firing a warning shot when there is not immediate danger of severe physical harm, or just firing a shot so that someone knows you're armed.

If someone wants to shoot the dirt instead of their attacker that should be their choice, although it wouldn't be wise most of the time because by the time you shoot the ground your attacker could already be on you beating you to death or stabbing you.

I think warning shots are a bad idea, but when you shoot the ground when someone is already charging you with a lethal weapon, then that really isn't a "warning" shot anymore (warning someone that you are armed with a loaded firearm), that is a "last chance before you get shot" shot.
 

OC for ME

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Agreed, the bill is not endorsing warning shots. They are usually are a bad idea. But they should not force a judge to give an automatic 20 years.
Of course the new bill endorses a warning shot. The mere mention that a warning shot is a defensive display instead of employing lethal force is endorsing a warning shot.

40 776.001 Legislative findings and intent; defensive display
41 of weapon or firearm; defense of life, home, and property.—
42 (1) The Legislature finds that it is unreasonable to
43 prosecute a person for acting in a defensive manner. The
44 Legislature intends to clarify that the defensive display of a
45 weapon or firearm, including the discharge of a firearm for the
46 purpose of a warning shot,
does not constitute the use of deadly
47 force
and is a valid method of preventing or terminating an
48 imminent or actual violent criminal attack.
49 (2) It is the intent of the Legislature to immunize a
50 person from prosecution who acts in defense of life, home, and
51 property from violent attack or the threat of violent attack by:
52 (a) Defensively displaying a weapon or firearm, if the
53 person reasonably believes that it is necessary to warn an
54 attacker to prevent or terminate an imminent or actual violent
I am not opposed to this bill. Stating that the bill does not endorse a warning shot is not true in my view. The discharge of a firearm in a self defense situation is not and should not be considered nothing more than merely displaying your weapon. Now, do you deserve prosecution if you "take" a warning shot? No. But do not lessen the act of discharging your weapon in a self defense situation. As was posted earlier, that round went somewhere, even if it is toward the ground near your feet.
 

OC for ME

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He is saying that firing a warning shot into the ground instead of into an attacker when it would have been justifiable is a better option for many people. <snip>
I know what he is saying, but what he has to say is irrelevant. It is what this bill states now and how this bill's language survives the process to become law that is relevant.
 
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