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Do firefighters and EMS have any obligation to respond?

eye95

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Cite?

Many would have thought the same were true of police officers, but the courts disagreed. It is reasonable that there is a moral obligation to respond, but not a legal one. After a sufficient number of calls, the probability that a call will not be responded to in time nears certainty. It would be foolish to hold responders liable for something that is eventually going to happen.
 

MedicineMan

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Cite?

Many would have thought the same were true of police officers, but the courts disagreed. It is reasonable that there is a moral obligation to respond, but not a legal one. After a sufficient number of calls, the probability that a call will not be responded to in time nears certainty. It would be foolish to hold responders liable for something that is eventually going to happen.

I am bound by a "duty to act" as a paramedic.

And I am NOT covered by the "good sam" laws because i hold national "certification" of training and state "license" to perform work in my field.
(ain't law wonderful)

If I were to drive past a serious accident and someone saw my NREMT sticker and took down my tag, I would have to answer to MS EMS for not acting.

The "cite" you seek is in the DOT course textbook for EMT-Basic as well as EMT-Paramedic.
They are published by both BRADY and AAOS.

If the above does not apply to your particular area, then you are fortunate.
It can put a kink in your daily routine.
It really sucks to have to stop and render aid to non-injured MVC "victims" til ambulance arrives when your ice cream and frozen groceries are melting.
 
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eye95

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I am bound by a "duty to act" as a paramedic.

And I am NOT covered by the "good sam" laws because i hold national "certification" of training and state "license" to perform work in my field.
(ain't law wonderful)

If I were to drive past a serious accident and someone saw my NREMT sticker and took down my tag, I would have to answer to MS EMS for not acting.

The "cite" you seek is in the DOT course textbook for EMT-Basic as well as EMT-Paramedic.
They are published by both BRADY and AAOS.

If the above does not apply to your particular area, then you are fortunate.
It can put a kink in your daily routine.
It really sucks to have to stop and render aid to non-injured MVC "victims" til ambulance arrives when your ice cream and frozen groceries are melting.

The question in the thread is a legal one. If you answer that question yes, it is incumbent upon you to cite the law that obligates you to respond in a timely manner. That is how this site works.

If you did not mean that you have a legal obligation, but have a strong moral one, then I agree with you.

There is a tremendous amount of misinformation floating around out there as to what the law says--even in training material. That is why, on OCDO, it is actually one of the written rules that if you state the law, you need to cite the law.
 

MedicineMan

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The question in the thread is a legal one. If you answer that question yes, it is incumbent upon you to cite the law that obligates you to respond in a timely manner. That is how this site works.

If you did not mean that you have a legal obligation, but have a strong moral one, then I agree with you.

There is a tremendous amount of misinformation floating around out there as to what the law says--even in training material. That is why, on OCDO, it is actually one of the written rules that if you state the law, you need to cite the law.

Okay,
A little deep into things for a "gun forum", but we can get into it.


§41-60-13. Promulgation of rules and regulations by state board of health.
The Mississippi State Board of Health is authorized to promulgate and enforce rules and regulations to
provide for the best and most effective emergency medical care, and to comply with national standards
for advanced life support. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, advanced life support personnel
may be authorized to provide advanced life support services as defined by rules and regulations
promulgated by the state board of health.
Rules and regulations promulgated pursuant to this authority shall, as a minimum:
(a) Define and authorize appropriate functions and training programs for advanced life support
trainees and personnel; provided, that all such training programs shall meet or exceed the
performance requirements of the current training program for the emergency medical technicianparamedic,
developed for the United States Department of Transportation.
(b) Specify minimum operational requirements which will assure medical control over all advanced
life support services.
(c) Specify minimum testing and certification requirements and provide for continuing education and
periodic recertification for all advanced life support personnel

The "law" is our PROTOCOLS.
No matter what others do in places around the country, I have to adhere to CENTRAL DISTRICT MISSISSIPPI PROTOCOLS.

The Medical Director "Establishes at his direction" what the EMS personnel will and won't do, as per Section 10, A-1, 2. ( http://www.msdh.state.ms.us/msdhsite/_static/resources/2603.pdf )
It has been decreed that "his personnel" WILL render aid at the designated level to anyone in need, or lose license.

As to the GENERAL "duty to act" on a nationwide level subject.....
A trained EMS professional CAN INDEED find themself in a courtroom for ignoring others.
I think this was/is being litigated in the case of the pregnant woman who was abandoned in a NYC coffee shop by a crew that was "off duty".
(sorry, no cite link..... but i'm sure google is friendly enough to help you find it if it's something you need badly.)
 
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eye95

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Okay,
A little deep into things for a "gun forum", but we can get into it.

The "law" is our PROTOCOLS.
No matter what others do in places around the country, I have to adhere to CENTRAL DISTRICT MISSISSIPPI PROTOCOLS.

As to the GENERAL "duty to act" on a nationwide level subject.....
A trained EMS professional CAN INDEED find themself in a courtroom for ignoring others.
I think this was/is being litigated in the case of the pregnant woman who was abandoned in a NYC coffee shop by a crew that was "off duty".
(sorry, no cite link..... but i'm sure google is friendly enough to help you find it if it's something you need badly.)

Again, you stray from the question at hand. Yes, we all know that there is a moral duty to respond. There are State laws saying that local policies must be set regarding response. Surely there are local policies setting standards of responsiveness. And, in two States, there are laws stating that, if you happen upon a scene, you must render aid.

Let me try to ask it again in the most straightforward way possible. If a call comes in and your firefighters and EMTs do not respond in time, resulting in additional losses (possibly of life), can you and the city be held financially liable in a civil suit for failure to respond in a timely manner?

The courts have already ruled that there is no "duty to respond" for LEOs, overturning civil judgments that resulted from egregiously slow responses. I cannot imagine that FFs and EMTs would be held to a different standard.

If you contend that they are, please cite the law, either in the form of a statute or a court opinion, that specifically states that such civil liability attaches. Otherwise, the answer to the titular question remains, "Legally, no. Morally and, not surprisingly, by policy, yes."
 

hogeaterf6

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Well what is a timely manor? Like I said before, it is never quick enough if its you having the emergency. We are a rather small county, 50k, with 3700 EMS runs a year thru 4 ambulances. If you call, we haul. If another came in on our way to another run and is more of a priority then the other, we will take it and the other truck will take the original one. Very rarely will a call be missed. It we are all busy, a surrounding co or medics are called in to staff a truck. All our calls are answered. Transfers can and do wait. Sometimes 2 hours.
Alot of big city do priorites calls and you may wait a hour or more. Look at NY during the blizzard. Took them 6 hours to make it to a house, but the still came.
There are alot of 'hard asses' on here that wont show this or say that cause of their 'rights.' LEO's have no duty to respond we found out. What are they out? If a medic fails to do his job, he looses it. He maybe also reviewed by the State EMS Commission and have his cert suspended or revoked. What is he out? Never to be a medic again, out the big $$ he spent, and also a degree he may no long use. The hours they put in for class, jobs they had to quit to study, relationships failed due to class and work are far to much to piss away for not responding.
Show me a medic who does not like trauma, they will respond lol.
Like I said before, you can be sued for anything.
 

eye95

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Well what is a timely manor?...

The point is that, in a civil suit, after the fact, "a timely manner" need not even be defined because the police are not required to respond in a timely manner. Following that same standard, neither should FF or EMS.

Barring a statute or case law stating otherwise, it is reasonable to believe that FF and EMS will not be held to a standard of timely response to avoid civil suits. Internal departmental policy may well set a standard. But for police the courts won't set such a standard. It is reasonable to believe that they won't for FF and EMS either.
 

hogeaterf6

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There is a National standard on response times. Not sure the time for enroute once call is paged out but we also have to be enroute in 1 min during the day and 3 min at night. The National standard from the time of call till we make the scene is 7 min 59 sec.
I think Fire and EMS have more rules and regs to follow then LEO. We have a National EMS Commission, State EMS Commission, NFPA rules, etc. I could be wrong.
 

eye95

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There is a National standard on response times. Not sure the time for enroute once call is paged out but we also have to be enroute in 1 min during the day and 3 min at night. The National standard from the time of call till we make the scene is 7 min 59 sec.
I think Fire and EMS have more rules and regs to follow then LEO. We have a National EMS Commission, State EMS Commission, NFPA rules, etc. I could be wrong.

Again, that would be a policy standard, not one applied in civil court. The question in the OP was in the context of a court ruling the the police had no duty to respond in a timely manner. Likewise, they also have policy standards, just no legal standard.

Barring a statute or a court ruling, FF and EMS have no civilly enforceable duty to respond in a timely manner. Clearly, based on your post, they have a duty by policy that would not provide grounds for a lawsuit if not met.
 

SgtScott31

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The NFPA and many other oversight-type organizations make "recommendations." These type entities and their rules/regs are heavily looked at when determining the issue at hand. Case in point, if the NFPA recommends that turnout gear that firefighters wear be replaced every five years and a firefighter, wearing 20yr old gear gets burned due to crappy gear, the NFPA recommendations will come into play in deciding whether the agency issuing the gear or allowing people to wear crappy structural gear holds a majority of fault.

I'm not aware of any successful civil action against a person who was off-duty that failed to act. The specific action that would be sought in civil court is negligence in these type cases. The first two elements that have to be met in a negligence case is 1) a duty to act and 2) the wrongdoer breached that duty. I find it hard to believe that anyone off-duty, regardless of training, has a legal duty to act to anything they roll up on. I think we can all agree that morally we probably do and will act. Every situtation will be different and it will be the decision of the court and what laws are in place in each state. I will say it's going to be very hard to prove a negligence case when the person that failed to act was not being paid to respond. I don't think even legislation can be written to force people to act off-duty.
 

eye95

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My boss and a County commissioner, who is my fire chief. lol

Can you provide a citation in the law, either case or code? The one thing I have learned more than anything else at OCDO is that everyone thinks they know the law--until someone actually looks it up!! Government officials are not immune from the I-know-the-law disease. Neither are we.
 
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hogeaterf6

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I'm not good at finding it but will see what I can do. It may take a few days as I am only on here at work.
 

SgtScott31

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I would say that it's more of an obligation because of taxes that are paid by the residents of that county/city/township. You pay "x" in taxes for police, fire, and EMS services. Here's the local ordinance for Nashville, TN (Davidson Co.):

2.44.020 - Powers, duties and responsibilities.

A.
The department of metropolitan police shall be responsible within the area of the metropolitan government for the preservation of the public peace, prevention and detection of crime, apprehension of criminals, protection of personal and property rights, and enforcement of laws of the state and ordinances of the metropolitan government.

B.
The director and other members of the metropolitan police force are vested by Section 8.202 of the Metropolitan Charter with all the power and authority belonging to the office of constable by the common law, and also with all the power, authority and duties which by statute may now or hereafter be provided for police and law enforcement officers of counties and cities, and they shall exercise this power and authority to diligently and effectively discharge the duties, responsibilities and functions of the department of metropolitan police.


My answer is more along the lines of off-duty response. If police/fire/EMS are being paid to respond, then it's going to fall under "duty to act" in the law's eyes.
 

hogeaterf6

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Eyes, I cant find anything online. Found a bunch of lawsuits for various EMS stuff but did not read each one. We have WYSE terminals here at work and is super slow to scroll through each case.
 

emsjeep

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Wow, simple instructions are difficult to follow....

This depends upon the jurisdiction and can be contradicted by special statutes at the will of the legislature, but I'll refer to New York for the purposes of my post.

In general, the standard that has held for the Police applies to EMS and fire as well.

The standard for negligance is always the same and requires:
1) An affirmative duty to act;
2) Breach of that duty;
3) Injury; and
4) a causal link between the breach of duty and the harm suffered.

If any of these elements are missing, the claim will fail. If these elements are satisfied, for the negligent conduct of a municipal agency, we move on to the special relationship test. Only if this final test is satisfied may a plaintiff collect against a municipal agency:
(1) an assumption by the municipality, through promises or actions, of an affirmative duty to act on behalf of the party who was injured; (2) knowledge on the part of the municipality's agents that inaction could lead to harm; (3) some form of direct contact between the municipality's agents and the injured party; and (4) that party's justifiable reliance on the municipality's affirmative undertaking.”

Laratro v. City of New York, 8 N.Y.3d 79, 83, 861 N.E.2d 95, 96-97 (2006)

Discussion of these elements in full detail could take days, but if any one fails, the test fails. To address 3 and 4 quickly, direct contact means direct contact with the victim who has suffered harm. A phone call will suffice, but the test will fail for a patient who is unconscious unless a DIRECT family member makes contact on their behalf. Justifiable reliance implies that there is some other means of rescue that was not undertaken because of the mistaken belief that the initially contacted agency is responding. I haven't dug deep into the case law, but off hand I don't think that there are too many actions that you can take to put out a house fire besides call the FD. A patient, on the other hand, might get themselves to the hospital or secure a private ambulance.

Hope that helps.

ETA: to satisfy the causal analysis one would have to prove that but for the negligent actions, if prolonged response time is such, the harm would not have been suffered. Alternatively, it can be characterized under the lost chance doctrine and depending on the jurisdiction the lost chance may dictate the applicable damages. A good example of this is the misdiagnosed cancer patient who would have had an 80% chance of survival but now has a 30% chance. This stuff is highly dependent on the jurisdiction though.
 
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eye95

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The specific duty we would be discussing in this thread would be a duty to respond in a timely manner. The Supreme Court has ruled that no such duty exists for police. It is a logical extension, barring case law stating otherwise, that the same lack of duty applies to FF and EMS.

Therefore, in the context of the question in this thread, test 1 fails and the whole test fails.
 

emsjeep

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The specific duty we would be discussing in this thread would be a duty to respond in a timely manner. The Supreme Court has ruled that no such duty exists for police. It is a logical extension, barring case law stating otherwise, that the same lack of duty applies to FF and EMS.

Therefore, in the context of the question in this thread, test 1 fails and the whole test fails.


Laratro v. City of New York involves a stroke patient who allegedly suffered further injury due to the delayed response of FDNY EMS due to an inaccurate classification of the situation as non-emergent. A municipal agency's duty to act (as an element of negligence) is invoked by the call for assistance, however, in the absence of a special relationship with the person requiring assistance a municipality is not liable for their negligent conduct.
 
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