A parking lot bill...

DontTreadOnMeVa · Nov 25, 2011

45acpForMe said:
+1000

To me it is so black and white. Respect property rights of the employee as well as the employer. What is in my car is my business.

Amen Brother....Amen.

gm2max said:
well guys, at least you have a voice.

Me, being military, have no chance in hell to take a firearm to work.

......(remember fort knox shooting and how it could have been ended quick)

It would be nice, but its too touchy, so I just arm up when I get home, and go about my day. Many times have I gone home to arm up just to go back out again. Totally worth it IMO.

I am aware of this issue and think it is sickening. I was told, but am not sure....that firearms are banned from even off base military housing? If so, I cant express how offensive that idea is to me. Not just for the military personal, but the idea of their families ability to defend themselves being compromised as well is beyond the pail. ...on base or off.

Back on topic, does anyone know who maybe sponsoring a parking lot bill? I would like to touch base with them to encourage that the bill crafted.

SouthernBoy · Nov 25, 2011

DontTreadOnMeVa said:
Amen Brother....Amen.

I am aware of this issue and think it is sickening. I was told, but am not sure....that firearms are banned from even off base military housing? If so, I cant express how offensive that idea is to me. Not just for the military personal, but the idea of their families ability to defend themselves being compromised as well is beyond the pail. ...on base or off.

Back on topic, does anyone know who maybe sponsoring a parking lot bill? I would like to touch base with them to encourage that the bill crafted.

"I was told, but am not sure....that firearms are banned from even off base military housing"

How can they do this? Suppose you and your family choose to live in a townhouse development which is entirely off base. How can they tell you what you can and cannot have in your own home? Suppose the firearm is your wife's, or yours and your wife is in the military. What do they do then? And what next? Tell you that you cannot have a big screen TV in your home... or perhaps a king size bed? And what are they going to do to find out about your property; inspect your home??

DontTreadOnMeVa · Nov 25, 2011

SouthernBoy said:
"I was told, but am not sure....that firearms are banned from even off base military housing"

How can they do this? Suppose you and your family choose to live in a townhouse development which is entirely off base. How can they tell you what you can and cannot have in your own home? Suppose the firearm is your wife's, or yours and your wife is in the military. What do they do then? And what next? Tell you that you cannot have a big screen TV in your home... or perhaps a king size bed? And what are they going to do to find out about your property; inspect your home??

As I said, I don't know how that works. I am only going by an in-laws comment who is a navy wife. She lamented not being able to have a firearm at home, because it was military housing.....and she said they are not allowed to keep a firearm in the house even off base. Exactly that the means, the policy of the navy and how it works in practice is something someone else will have to clarify. I have been to there home in Norfolk, but you don't have past any kind of check point or anything,,,but it is navy housing....town houses. I am sure someone in the navy can clear that up.

45acpForMe · Nov 25, 2011

gm2max said:
well guys, at least you have a voice. Me, being military, have no chance in hell to take a firearm to work. <snip>

The ban on weapons on military bases affects more than just active duty personnel. I have to visit a customer at Ft. Lee a few times a month and have to disarm at home 1.5 hours away. So for the time on base and 3 hours of travel I am disarmed. I often stop on the way home to get lunch and/or run an errand so am also unarmed during those activities.

Addressing military bases is something that has to be taken up at Federal level and with the military commander. It has been argued that firearms could be allowed if the base commander had the nads to allow it. Unfortunately at that rank their job is more political than military and one bad decision can cost them their career. It would be interesting if ONE nad-laden commander actually didn't care about his career more than his personnel and pushed the issue.

USNA69 · Nov 25, 2011

45acpForMe said:
The ban on weapons on military bases affects more than just active duty personnel. I have to visit a customer at Ft. Lee a few times a month and have to disarm at home 1.5 hours away. So for the time on base and 3 hours of travel I am disarmed. I often stop on the way home to get lunch and/or run an errand so am also unarmed during those activities.

Addressing military bases is something that has to be taken up at Federal level and with the military commander. It has been argued that firearms could be allowed if the base commander had the nads to allow it. Unfortunately at that rank their job is more political than military and one bad decision can cost them their career. It would be interesting if ONE nad-laden commander actually didn't care about his career more than his personnel and pushed the issue.

Which brings us to USMC Camp Allen in Norfolk. Camp Allen has a shooting range located inside a gated and guarded portion of the Camp.
A quote from their web site:
We are open to:

Military (active, reserve, retirees and dependants)
Law enforcement officers
DOD personnel
Department of Homeland Security Personnel
Federal Government employees

So, all of these users routinely carry their properly stowed firearms and ammunition through this guarded gate, as have I on many ocassions.

It gets better. The guarded gate through which one must pass in order to get to the shooting range lies about 180 feet from the boundary of Camp Allen Elementary School, which is A Norfolk public school, per the web site of Norfolk Public Schools - http://ww2.nps.k12.va.us/education/school/school.php?sectiondetailid=92

Not only am I and many others bringing firearms and ammunition onto a military base, we are also necessarily passing well within 1000 feet of a PUBLIC school in violation of federal law (GFSZA).

Oh, did I neglect to mention that firearms and ammunition are sold at the Camp Allen Marine Corps Exchange, which is on base, but not behind a fenced or guarded portion?

It would appear that the local military commander's policy trumps federal law ... at least in this case.

SEMPER FI!!!

peter nap · Nov 25, 2011

USNA69 said:
Which brings us to USMC Camp Allen in Norfolk. Camp Allen has a shooting range located inside a gated and guarded portion of the Camp.
A quote from their web site:
We are open to:

Military (active, reserve, retirees and dependants)

Law enforcement officers

DOD personnel

Department of Homeland Security Personnel

Federal Government employees

So, all of these users routinely carry their properly stowed firearms and ammunition through this guarded gate, as have I on many ocassions.

It gets better. The guarded gate through which one must pass in order to get to the shooting range lies about 180 feet from the boundary of Camp Allen Elementary School, which is A Norfolk public school, per the web site of Norfolk Public Schools - http://ww2.nps.k12.va.us/education/school/school.php?sectiondetailid=92

Not only am I and many others bringing firearms and ammunition onto a military base, we are also necessarily passing well within 1000 feet of a PUBLIC school in violation of federal law (GFSZA).

Oh, did I neglect to mention that firearms and ammunition are sold at the Camp Allen Marine Corps Exchange, which is on base, but not behind a fenced or guarded portion?

It would appear that the local military commander's policy trumps federal law ... at least in this case.

SEMPER FI!!!

I believe military law tops civilian Federal Law on military bases USN...and I believe Military Base Commanders are Gods in their world.

SouthernBoy · Nov 25, 2011

I have gone onto the Quantico Marine Base several times with firearms in my trunk, unloaded. An AR-15 and a handgun to be specific. One one occasion, the guards at the gate examined my firearms and then allowed me to continue to Q-Town... with my arms.

SouthernBoy · Nov 25, 2011

DontTreadOnMeVa said:
As I said, I don't know how that works. I am only going by an in-laws comment who is a navy wife. She lamented not being able to have a firearm at home, because it was military housing.....and she said they are not allowed to keep a firearm in the house even off base. Exactly that the means, the policy of the navy and how it works in practice is something someone else will have to clarify. I have been to there home in Norfolk, but you don't have past any kind of check point or anything,,,but it is navy housing....town houses. I am sure someone in the navy can clear that up.

"As I said, I don't know how that works."

Yeah, me neither. It does sound as though they are overstepping their bound and authority if they dictate to personnel's' families what they can and cannot do when off base in private housing. On base I can completely understand this, even though I still don't agree with it. But not off base. If my wife was in the military and we chose to live off base in private housing of our choosing, as far as I'm concerned they could go pound sand when it comes to my rights and what I can own and use.

Yes I know that this could very well have a detrimental effect on her career if she was of a mind to make the military a career, but there are some things worth standing up for and asserting and my rights fall into that bucket.

But it's easy to say these things sitting here in my home in my study, typing away about this and that. Neither of us are in the military so it's not an issue here. So words are one thing.... actions are an entirely different matter.

sailer · Nov 25, 2011

Old Virginia Joe said:
I agree this situation sucks, and I don't like it either. HOWEVER, what I hate even MORE is a law-body making me allow something on my PRIVATE property that I don't agree with!

Your parking lot is in the United States. The Constitution of the United States should apply there, in all its glory -- including its Second Amendment.

Your private property rights do not trump the Constitutional rights of your employees; indeed the Constitution protects^^^^^^^should protect your property rights.

Uber_Olafsun · Nov 25, 2011

There is off base military housing. Andrews AFB has some by the redskins stadium. They want to say it is military housing but had no guards for awhile and not the best area. So technically it was still base housing just not on base. Now if you were renting an apartment and the non military spouse had a firearm I could see there being a difference.

grylnsmn · Nov 25, 2011

mariner said:
Your parking lot is in the United States. The Constitution of the United States should apply there, in all its glory -- including its Second Amendment.

Your private property rights do not trump the Constitutional rights of your employees; indeed the Constitution protects^^^^^^^should protect your property rights.

The Constitution only protects your rights against infringement by the government. It doesn't protect you from infringement by other private parties.

For example, you have a Constitutional right to free speech, but that doesn't mean that you can come into my home and say whatever you want. I can ask you to leave, and my property rights trump your free speech rights.

The same applies with the carrying of a firearm. As you have no right to be on my property, I can ask you to leave at any time, for any reason. That includes saying that you are not welcome here if you are armed. Your Second Amendment rights do not trump my Fifth Amendment right to property.*

* This is for the sake of illustration only. I do not routinely kick people off my property for being armed. If you're armed and I don't want you here, chances are someone will wind up shot, because you didn't come in with my permission.

JamesB · Nov 26, 2011

grylnsmn said:
The Constitution only protects your rights against infringement by the government. It doesn't protect you from infringement by other private parties.

For example, you have a Constitutional right to free speech, but that doesn't mean that you can come into my home and say whatever you want. I can ask you to leave, and my property rights trump your free speech rights.

The same applies with the carrying of a firearm. As you have no right to be on my property, I can ask you to leave at any time, for any reason. That includes saying that you are not welcome here if you are armed. Your Second Amendment rights do not trump my Fifth Amendment right to property.*

* This is for the sake of illustration only. I do not routinely kick people off my property for being armed. If you're armed and I don't want you here, chances are someone will wind up shot, because you didn't come in with my permission.

If I can't trust you with a gun, I can't trust you to enter my home.

MSC 45ACP · Nov 27, 2011

USNA69 said:
Which brings us to USMC Camp Allen in Norfolk. Camp Allen has a shooting range located inside a gated and guarded portion of the Camp.
A quote from their web site:
We are open to:

Military (active, reserve, retirees and dependants)

Law enforcement officers

DOD personnel

Department of Homeland Security Personnel

Federal Government employees

So, all of these users routinely carry their properly stowed firearms and ammunition through this guarded gate, as have I on many ocassions.

It gets better. The guarded gate through which one must pass in order to get to the shooting range lies about 180 feet from the boundary of Camp Allen Elementary School, which is A Norfolk public school, per the web site of Norfolk Public Schools - http://ww2.nps.k12.va.us/education/school/school.php?sectiondetailid=92

Not only am I and many others bringing firearms and ammunition onto a military base, we are also necessarily passing well within 1000 feet of a PUBLIC school in violation of federal law (GFSZA).

Oh, did I neglect to mention that firearms and ammunition are sold at the Camp Allen Marine Corps Exchange, which is on base, but not behind a fenced or guarded portion?

It would appear that the local military commander's policy trumps federal law ... at least in this case.

SEMPER FI!!!

You failed to clarify that firearms are sold at the Exchange where you don't have to pass through a gate to enter. Ammo is actually sold at the RANGE and you DO pass through a gate guarded by Marines to get there. It is inconvenient to buy ammo from them. Their prices aren't very good anyway.

streetdoc · Nov 28, 2011

This topic was discussed a while back about firearms on Military Bases and in Housing. You cannot carry a loaded firearm on base except on a range or while hunting. If you live in the Barrocks your firearms must be storied in the Armory or off base, If you live in Housing you can keep your base registered firearms there. When ever you have your firearm in you vehicle it must unloaded, rounds out of the magazines and not accessable while driving. There are some difference in each branch of the services, and they must comply with the general guidelines from DOD and the Heads of their respective branch.

Just over a year ago some Base Commanders were getting a little crazy with some regulations about firearms, registration both and off base, they got their hands slapped by Congress to make the requirements more uniform in nature. If you back search the topic I am sure you can find it in these forums.

SouthernBoy · Nov 28, 2011

streetdoc said:
This topic was discussed a while back about firearms on Military Bases and in Housing. You cannot carry a loaded firearm on base except on a range or while hunting. If you live in the Barrocks your firearms must be storied in the Armory or off base, If you live in Housing you can keep your base registered firearms there. When ever you have your firearm in you vehicle it must unloaded, rounds out of the magazines and not accessable while driving. There are some difference in each branch of the services, and they must comply with the general guidelines from DOD and the Heads of their respective branch.

Just over a year ago some Base Commanders were getting a little crazy with some regulations about firearms, registration both and off base, they got their hands slapped by Congress to make the requirements more uniform in nature. If you back search the topic I am sure you can find it in these forums.

This may be all well and good, but what about private housing, as in housing off base, or if you will private housing such as that where non-military would live? Can their "arm of control" reach into those enclaves and dictate things such as base registration (remember you are not on base or in any sort of base housing), storage, etc.? Also, if you are not on base and going about your business as anyone else would, can they also control how you carry your firearm in your car or on your person (when not in uniform)?

I understand that when you are in the military it is a 24/7 commitment, but in the above examples, I am talking about military personnel off of base and outside of the realm of military reach (private housing, shopping in malls and centers, etc.).

Could a CO demand that his subordinates not carry arms and not have them in their cars when they are out and about on their own and not on military grounds/property?

TFred · Nov 28, 2011

SouthernBoy said:
This may be all well and good, but what about private housing, as in housing off base, or if you will private housing such as that where non-military would live? Can their "arm of control" reach into those enclaves and dictate things such as base registration (remember you are not on base or in any sort of base housing), storage, etc.? Also, if you are not on base and going about your business as anyone else would, can they also control how you carry your firearm in your car or on your person (when not in uniform)?

I understand that when you are in the military it is a 24/7 commitment, but in the above examples, I am talking about military personnel off of base and outside of the realm of military reach (private housing, shopping in malls and centers, etc.).

Could a CO demand that his subordinates not carry arms and not have them in their cars when they are out and about on their own and not on military grounds/property?

A friend of mine, a barely-21-something girl, just recently married a Navy recruit... she posted a note on her Facebook page a few weeks ago that the Navy told them they couldn't get pregnant until some future point in time that I don't recall. (This is not something I would have been discussing with said friend in person, I'll leave comment on Facebook postings to another forum...)

Seems that if the Navy thinks they can tell you when you and your husband can and cannot get pregnant... they probably think they can tell you pretty much anything, no matter where you live.

TFred

TFred · Nov 28, 2011

State sovereignty

I will add this thought:

Putting a section in a Parking Lot bill that overrides any Federal Government laws, rules, regulations or otherwise lawful orders by a military commander not in a time of war would be a very interesting test in State sovereignty.

I would imagine Mr. Cuccinelli would be more than happy to take up such an issue in the courts.

TFred

Red Dawg · Nov 29, 2011

We've discussed the base/housing thing before. However, Air Force, Army, and Marine exchanges DO sell guns on base, behind gates. I travel to bases for a living. Offutt AFB in Nebraska being the most frequent that does this. A few months ago they even had a giveaway of three handguns, in the exchange, on base.
Only place as far as military housing you can NOT have your guns, is if you are not collecting the housing allowance, and the gov't gives you the free rent. Any private residence, that you own, or rent is fine as long as the local laws allow it. And ALL states allow a gun for protection in your residence. CORRECT? Even DC with it's hoops and strangeness.
\Now having a parking lot law for the military installations would be a great benefit. But someone would screw it up for all by "forgetting" to leave it in the car. Just like cell phones that aren't allowed around the building..Yeah, kinda silly, but ODA will back me on this one...

nuc65 · Nov 29, 2011

peter nap said:
I believe military law tops civilian Federal Law on military bases USN...and I believe Military Base Commanders are Gods in their world.

They are topped by military intelligence agencies.

Red Dawg · Nov 29, 2011

"They are topped by military intelligence agencies."

What a crock!!! Contradiction in terms...

A parking lot bill...

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