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Would you fear for your life?

Dreamer

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
5,360
Location
Grennsboro NC
The only Persons I hav attacked are persons who have proven, documented track records of lawless, illegal, and conspiratorial behavior with regards to assault, homicide, and civil rights violations.

The fact that they are LEOs is really inconsequential to the discussion, except for the fact that their lawlessness is EVEN MORE egregious in the light of their supposed job requirements.

I'm NOT bashing PA cops in general, or as a group. I'm singling out a few VERY bad apples, an the people up their chain of command who condone, obfuscate, and cover up such behavior.

Just because people are afraid of being accused of "cop bashing" shouldn't be grounds to censor PUBLIC INFORMATION such as news stories, court reports, and other publicly-availabel information that is pertinent to establishing a pattern of criminal behavior in a specific instance.

If these particular "officers" were shining examples of LE perfection, I would not be digging through their closets. But when you can EASILY see the skeletal fingers piled up on their front porches, the game has taken an ENTIRELY different nature...

If publishing links to the previous news stories of abusive LEOs is "cop bashing" then color me guilty.

Personally, I think our brothers and sisters in Pittsburgh and Allegheny County would WANT to know that there are a few REALLY bad apples over there, and that their chain of command has a LONG history of colluding and conspiring to cover up their misdeed.

OC is SERIOUS business. It can provoke some irrational and unpredictable reactions from some citizens and occasionally some LEOs.

When you ad to that mix a systemic disdain for civil rights, and a deeply-engrained tendency toward perjury, collusion and conspiracy to cover up such acts, it creates a VERY risky situation for lawful OC.

I think we owe our fellow OCers in Western PA an accurate and comprehensive account of that information, so that they can make INFORMED decisions as to how they wish to conduct themselves, to ensure their own safety.

I'm not personally attacking people because they wear badges.

I'm personally attacking individuals because they have PROVEN records of acting in a lawless, sociopathic, unstable, and dangerous manner. If they were plumbers, or auto mechanics, or hairdressers, and had similar records of serial abuse of the civil rights of citizens, I'd be calling them out just as vociferously...

The fact that they are LEOs just means that OCers need to be EXTRA CAREFUL, because, apparently in certain parts of PA, you just NEVER know when an "interaction" might become a full-fledged, brutal, and potentially deadly assault on their civil rights. And to add insult to injury, they may well expect the courts to join in supporting such lawless, criminal activities, because at least in criminal cases, that seems to be how it goes in PA. (Civil suits seem to be a little more "justice-minded" though...)

When I find incidents like this anywhere, I will continue to warn other OCers of their potential threat. And I will continue to post photographs of the transgressors, because I think we ALL need to be able to put a face behind the fists and the boots.

I'd think that the people of PA would WANT to know this, for their own safety...
 
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Brimstone Baritone

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2010
Messages
786
Location
Leeds, Alabama, USA
NO PERSONAL ATTACKS: While you may disagree strongly with another poster based upon their opinion, we will NOT tolerate any personal attacks or general bashing of groups of people based upon race, religion, sex, or choice of occupation (e.g., being a law enforcement officer).
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules

Anyone can quote a rule. Show me where/how he broke it.

ETA: And I don't think he can be accused of general bashing of groups of "PA troopers who have multiple, well documented records of assault". Seems like a bit of a stretch to me.
 
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Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Anyone can quote a rule. Show me where/how he broke it.

ETA: And I don't think he can be accused of general bashing of groups of "PA troopers who have multiple, well documented records of assault". Seems like a bit of a stretch to me.

My comment was not originally directed at any one poster. I agree that it is good to know how to respond to the bad apple; however, the difference between a discussion and a bashing is only a matter of degree, tone and words selected.

Reread some of the verbiage used - I think it crosses the line.

"The cop did his job when he beat the man.....sarcasm but inflammatory."

"A lawman is a killer of men."

"All government is the organized use of brutality."

If we cannot learn to distinguish between reporting an event and slanting it, we are no better than the mainstream media to this regard.

Perhaps more important is the decision/intent to ignore the private property rules in favor of one's own selection of what is appropriate here.
 

John Pierce

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
May 5, 2006
Messages
1,777
I make the call as to which threads to lock and which threads to delete and which threads to leave alone based upon the totality of the comments in the thread, the direction the thread is going, etc.

I am currently leaving this thread open because it DOES relate to open carry and the event DID occur and our rules do allow discussing specific acts of misconduct by officers against gun owners.

You may disagree with individual decisions I make regarding threads but I hardly think the balance I try to strike could be called "blatant censorship". :)


John

And be warned members of OCDO: if you report on this sort of thing, the Moderators will lock your threads...

...

And so, in the spirit of the First Amendment, and in defiance of the blatant censorship being perpetrated by the Moderators, I present, three of Pittsburgh's Finest:
 

John Pierce

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
May 5, 2006
Messages
1,777
I should note that should this thread go off topic or become general LEO bashing (as opposed to discussing this specific act of misconduct), then I, of course, retain the option to close it as well.

I do not want people to be afraid of posting about bad police encounters while carrying. That is EXACTLY what we are about. However, there is always someone who wants to take it off in the direction of general police corruption. And while that is an important topic, it is outside the scope of what we want to address.

I think anyone here can see the difference between:

"Look at how these officers treated a carrier who notified!"

vs.

"I am a lawman and I kill people"

See? Thanks!


John

I make the call as to which threads to lock and which threads to delete and which threads to leave alone based upon the totality of the comments in the thread, the direction the thread is going, etc.

I am currently leaving this thread open because it DOES relate to open carry and the event DID occur and our rules do allow discussing specific acts of misconduct by officers against gun owners.

You may disagree with individual decisions I make regarding threads but I hardly think the balance I try to strike could be called "blatant censorship". :)


John
 

Dreamer

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
5,360
Location
Grennsboro NC
An interesting sidenote: The PPD wears a specially-patterned band on their hat, called a "Sillitoe Tartan". This band is common in the UK, but the ONLY other police agencies in the US that wear this band are the Chicago Police, and Cook County Sheriffs dept.

I don't mean nothin' by that... I'm just sayin'...

But you know how the old saying goes: Birds of a feather...
 

Dreamer

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
5,360
Location
Grennsboro NC
The Chicago-Pittsburgh connection is apparently MUCH deeper than uniform design...

Apparently they flew officers in from Chicago to "help" with the G20 summit last year. And while there, a group of Chicago PD arrested a Pitt English student who DARED to walk home to his dorm from dinner at a Pizza parlor. They forced him to pose as a "trophy" in a photograph while handcuffed and on his knees...

http://reason.com/blog/2009/10/19/chicago-cops-vacation-at-pitts

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loca...ps-Humiliate-Pittsburgh-Student-64483222.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/16/g20-police-kyle-kramer-co_n_323685.html


Now THAT'S the sort of interdepartmental LE relationship that the Citizens of PA should be proud of...
 

Dreamer

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
5,360
Location
Grennsboro NC
However, there is always someone who wants to take it off in the direction of general police corruption. And while that is an important topic, it is outside the scope of what we want to address

John, I respectfully disagree...

General corruption WILL eventually lead to a lawful legal OCer being shot by one of these out-of-control "officers" in cities like this. The departments WILL attempt to cover it up. The Courts WILL attempt to gloss over police misconduct. The record speaks for itself...

We hope that never happens. But history shows that more likely than not, we are headed in that direction.

But if calling out these egregious abuses of power can help to inform our fellow OCers as to what they might expect, then I feel that general corruption--ESPECIALLY when it concerns civil rights violations--IS a topic of concern for this forum.

John, please explain to us how being blindly "one issue focused" serves the overall safety, liberty, and freedom of our members?


Just read this little "cop bashing" gem from the US 3rd Circuit Court of Appeals, regarding the issues in PPD, if you want to see how they REALLY run things in the "Steel City":

In a ruling against the city last week in a 1993 police brutality case, the U.S. 3rd Circuit Court of Appeals described Pittsburgh's system of investigating police misconduct as "nothing more than a facade to cover the violent behavioral patterns of police officers."

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~pshell/gammage/testimonies/doj-inv.html
 
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Dreamer

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
5,360
Location
Grennsboro NC
If DIRECTLY QUOTING a Federal Judge in a civil rights violation case constitutes "cop bashing" then y'all better just better kick me off the forum now.

I'm just getting warmed up...

Concern for the safety, security, and liberty of our fellow OCers should be the PARAMOUNT function of this forum.

Not choice of gun, not holsters and doodadds, not feel-good dinner meetings or pat-on-the-back media events. All those things ARE important, but I think it's pretty obvious that the MOST important issue SHOULD BE the safety and Civil Rights of our fellow members.

What better way to help us all stay safe and free than to let people know what to expect from the VERY PEOPLE who have the authority to infringe upon that freedom?

Again, I'll reiterate, I've NEVER had an issue with ANY LEO--not in NC, PA, VA, WV, or OH--while OCing. I've had nothing but good encounters, and been met with nothing but courtesy, support, and professionalism. I don't have any sort of personal "axe to grind".

But turning our backs on the SERIOUS issues with the isolated, rare, but EGREGIOUS misconduct of some individual officers in some of the larger cities because we're afraid we might step on someone's tender sensibilities is irresponsible and potentially dangerous to our OC brothers and sisters who are unfortunate enough to live or travel in these pockets of institutionalized corruption.

Again, I'll ask, please explain to us how being blindly "one issue focused" serves the overall safety, liberty, and freedom of our members?
 
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Yard Sale

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
Messages
708
Location
Northern Nevada, ,
General corruption WILL eventually lead to a lawful legal OCer being shot by one of these out-of-control "officers" in cities like this. The departments WILL attempt to cover it up.

Get thee to the Nevada forum and read the thread on the recent Las Vegas Metro Police shooting death of open carrier Erik Scott at a suburban Costco store.
 

Dreamer

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
5,360
Location
Grennsboro NC
Get thee to the Nevada forum and read the thread on the recent Las Vegas Metro Police shooting death of open carrier Erik Scott at a suburban Costco store.

Actually that guy was CCing...

He was shot when he lifted his shirt (most likely at the request of the police) to show where his gun was...

This story is going to make for a LONG and ugly court case, and hopefully a substantial settlement for Mr Scott's survivors, against the LVMP and Costco.

When the Costco security camera videos are finally released, I think the story of the LVMP is going to change two or three more times before they settle on their "final answer" for the courts.

UPDATE: The police have the Costco security tapes, but it appears there was a "malfunction" with the recording equipment, and so they are having to send the tapes to a forensic lab to try and reconstruct the data...

Isn't that convenient...

Apparently Costco uses the same surveillance system they use in College Park MD. Maybe they should call Lt. Joanne Ardovini--she seems to be pretty well-qualified for dealing with incriminating surveillance tapes...

Perhaps Mr. Scott's attorneys should call Eric Rachner in Seattle WA. He seems to be VERY qualified to get to the bottom of issues like this:

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/418746_video.html?Dsfa

How is it that every rat-hole convenience store in every poverty-ridden neighborhood in America can have perfectly working security cams to catch photo-quality images every time a crackhead tries to hold them up, but every time a LEA is involved in a high-profile public shooting, the state of the art surveillance gear of a multi-million dollar, multi-national corporation, or a municipality, or their own cruisers seems to be on the fritz?

I smell a rat. And his name is Cover-up...
 
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kwikrnu

Banned
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
1,956
Location
Brentwood, Tennessee
When the Costco security camera videos are finally released, I think the story of the LVMP is going to change two or three more times before they settle on their "final answer" for the courts.

You mean they are not truthful in their released statements? I forgot cops are under no duty to tell the truth.
 

simmonsjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2009
Messages
1,661
Location
Mattaponi, Virginia, United States
Malfunction = convenient

Actually that guy was CCing...

He was shot when he lifted his shirt (most likely at the request of the police) to show where his gun was...

This story is going to make for a LONG and ugly court case, and hopefully a substantial settlement for Mr Scott's survivors, against the LVMP and Costco.

When the Costco security camera videos are finally released, I think the story of the LVMP is going to change two or three more times before they settle on their "final answer" for the courts.

UPDATE: The police have the Costco security tapes, but it appears there was a "malfunction" with the recording equipment, and so they are having to send the tapes to a forensic lab to try and reconstruct the data...

Isn't that convenient...

Apparently Costco uses the same surveillance system they use in College Park MD. Maybe they should call Lt. Joanne Ardovini--she seems to be pretty well-qualified for dealing with incriminating surveillance tapes...

How is it that every rat-hole convenience store in every poverty-ridden neighborhood in America can have perfectly working security cams to catch photo-quality images every time a crackhead tries to hold them up, but every time a LEA is involved in a high-profile public shooting, the state of the art surveillance gear of a multi-million dollar, multi-national corporation, or a municipality, or their own cruisers seems to be on the fritz?

I smell a rat. And his name is Cover-up...
well **** me. A malfunction huh?
 

Gunslinger

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
3,853
Location
Free, Colorado, USA
An interesting sidenote: The PPD wears a specially-patterned band on their hat, called a "Sillitoe Tartan". This band is common in the UK, but the ONLY other police agencies in the US that wear this band are the Chicago Police, and Cook County Sheriffs dept.

I don't mean nothin' by that... I'm just sayin'...

But you know how the old saying goes: Birds of a feather...

REMOVED BY MODERATOR: Rules violation
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
What the hell does that mean?

I don't mean to speak for GS, but I think he is bemoaning the fact that some feel that their need to say something outweighs the rights of the owners of this property (OCDO) to set the rules.

If that is what he meant, I agree with him.
 
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