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Questions about Open Carrying. Please Help.

Ranard The Fox

New member
Joined
Aug 9, 2011
Messages
8
Location
Jackson Mi
I'm Currently 19 in Jackson Michigan. Ive been looking at Open Carrying for a while now but have been skeptical about what I have read online. Today I made a trip to the state police station and they very rudely denied to answer my questions and sent me to this website. That being said I have a few questions.

I am correct that the age is 18 to Carry in Michigan?
The age to purchase handgun ammo is 21 in Michigan, does this prevent me from owning or possessing handgun ammo? If so, what about hand-loads, Since I legally purchase my own materials and load my own rounds. (Although I would be carrying factory defense rounds.)
What are the stipulations on open carrying? Such as, does the safety legally need to be engaged, can there be one in the chamber ready to fire?
Are there any stipulations on the amount of ammo, magazines, or the magazine size you are allowed to carry?
Does a separate pouch/holster carrying an extra clip also need to be Open or can that be concealed?
If I was wearing a short sleeve T-shirt, tucked in, and my arm was at my side blocking view of the gun partially, unintentionally, does this consider it to be concealed?

Also, I drive an S10, being such it has no real "Trunk". Does the locked case for transport need to be in the bed. Or can it be behind or under the passenger or drivers seat?
 

Bronson

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
2,126
Location
Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
Welcome to the boring and unexciting world of open carry in Michigan.

I'll throw some links at you that will have a lot of information in them. Read through these and we'll help to clarify stuff you still don't understand.

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?81204-Open-Carry-Guide-Project
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?67581-Michigan-open-carry-reference-chart
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?80847-Wash-Rinse-repeat-Link
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...that-explain-the-legality-of-Open-Carry-in-MI

Here's a link for the Citizen's League for Self Defense where you can purchase their Open Carry Handbook, which is one of the most comprehensive collection of information on OC in MI http://www.citizensleaguesd.com/ They're running a promotion right now so you can get a few $$ off.

Bronson
 

Ranard The Fox

New member
Joined
Aug 9, 2011
Messages
8
Location
Jackson Mi
Welcome to the boring and unexciting world of open carry in Michigan.

I'll throw some links at you that will have a lot of information in them. Read through these and we'll help to clarify stuff you still don't understand.

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?81204-Open-Carry-Guide-Project
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?67581-Michigan-open-carry-reference-chart
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?80847-Wash-Rinse-repeat-Link
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...that-explain-the-legality-of-Open-Carry-in-MI

Here's a link for the Citizen's League for Self Defense where you can purchase their Open Carry Handbook, which is one of the most comprehensive collection of information on OC in MI http://www.citizensleaguesd.com/ They're running a promotion right now so you can get a few $$ off.

Bronson

I appreciate the help. After reading everything on the pages contained in the four links you sent me. The only question any of those answered was my vehicle transport question. All of that information I had read before, so a multitude of my questions still stand. I will be ordering a copy of the book you mentioned if my questions cannot be answered.
 

xmanhockey7

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
1,195
I am correct that the age is 18 to Carry in Michigan?
Yes

The age to purchase handgun ammo is 21 in Michigan, does this prevent me from owning or possessing handgun ammo? If so, what about hand-loads, Since I legally purchase my own materials and load my own rounds. (Although I would be carrying factory defense rounds.)
This does not prevent you from owning or possessing handgun ammo. It just prevents you from buying the ammo from an FFL dealer just like you can't buy a handgun from an FFL dealer.

What are the stipulations on open carrying? Such as, does the safety legally need to be engaged, can there be one in the chamber ready to fire?
Well if you have a "safety" it can still be on safe with a round in the chamber. But back to more what you're asking, yes you can open carry with a round in the chamber.

Are there any stipulations on the amount of ammo, magazines, or the magazine size you are allowed to carry?
Nope, you can carry around 100,000 with you if you so please (might get a bit heavy and expensive).

Does a separate pouch/holster carrying an extra clip also need to be Open or can that be concealed?
The extra MAGAZINE can be open or concealed as there is no law that prevents the carry of concealed magazines.

If I was wearing a short sleeve T-shirt, tucked in, and my arm was at my side blocking view of the gun partially, unintentionally, does this consider it to be concealed?
No.

Also, I drive an S10, being such it has no real "Trunk". Does the locked case for transport need to be in the bed. Or can it be behind or under the passenger or drivers seat?
750.231a Exceptions to MCL 750.227(2); definitions.
Sec. 231a. (1) Subsection (2) of section 227 does not apply to any of the following:
(a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.
(b) To the regular and ordinary transportation of pistols as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms.
(c) To a person carrying an antique firearm as defined in subsection (2), completely unloaded in a closed
Page 150
FIREARMS LAWS OF MICHIGAN — 2011
case or container designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of a vehicle. (d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of
the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.
(e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.
(2) As used in this section: (a) "Antique firearm" means either of the following: (i) A firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed
ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898, including a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica of such a firearm, whether actually manufactured before or after 1898.
(ii) A firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
(b) "Lawful purpose" includes the following: (i) While en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area. (ii) While transporting a pistol en route to or from his or her home or place of business and place of repair. (iii) While moving goods from 1 place of abode or business to another place of abode or business. (iv) While transporting a licensed pistol en route to or from a law enforcement agency or for the purpose of
having a law enforcement official take possession of the weapon. (v) While en route to or from his or her abode or place of business and a gun show or places of purchase or
sale. (vi) While en route to or from his or her abode to a public shooting facility or public land where discharge
of firearms is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance. (vii) While en route to or from his or her abode to a private property location where the pistol is to be used
as is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.

You may put it (unloaded) in a case designed for the storage of a pistol as long as it's out of you're reach. You are not required by law to put a lock on it but it may be a good idea in case someone tries to say you weren't legally transporting it.
 
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Ranard The Fox

New member
Joined
Aug 9, 2011
Messages
8
Location
Jackson Mi
Yes


This does not prevent you from owning or possessing handgun ammo. It just prevents you from buying the ammo from an FFL dealer just like you can't buy a handgun from an FFL dealer.


Well if you have a "safety" it can still be on safe with a round in the chamber. But back to more what you're asking, yes you can open carry with a round in the chamber.


Nope, you can carry around 100,000 with you if you so please (might get a bit heavy and expensive).


The extra MAGAZINE can be open or concealed as there is no law that prevents the carry of concealed magazines.


No.


750.231a Exceptions to MCL 750.227(2); definitions.
Sec. 231a. (1) Subsection (2) of section 227 does not apply to any of the following:
(a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.
(b) To the regular and ordinary transportation of pistols as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms.
(c) To a person carrying an antique firearm as defined in subsection (2), completely unloaded in a closed
Page 150
FIREARMS LAWS OF MICHIGAN — 2011
case or container designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of a vehicle. (d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of
the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.
(e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.
(2) As used in this section: (a) "Antique firearm" means either of the following: (i) A firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed
ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898, including a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica of such a firearm, whether actually manufactured before or after 1898.
(ii) A firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
(b) "Lawful purpose" includes the following: (i) While en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area. (ii) While transporting a pistol en route to or from his or her home or place of business and place of repair. (iii) While moving goods from 1 place of abode or business to another place of abode or business. (iv) While transporting a licensed pistol en route to or from a law enforcement agency or for the purpose of
having a law enforcement official take possession of the weapon. (v) While en route to or from his or her abode or place of business and a gun show or places of purchase or
sale. (vi) While en route to or from his or her abode to a public shooting facility or public land where discharge
of firearms is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance. (vii) While en route to or from his or her abode to a private property location where the pistol is to be used
as is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.

You may put it (unloaded) in a case designed for the storage of a pistol as long as it's out of you're reach. You are not required by law to put a lock on it but it may be a good idea in case someone tries to say you weren't legally transporting it.

Thank you sir! Most of these questions I assumed the answer to. But I wanted a second opinion just to be sure. Thanks for taking the time to adequately answer =)
 

xmanhockey7

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
1,195
Thank you sir! Most of these questions I assumed the answer to. But I wanted a second opinion just to be sure. Thanks for taking the time to adequately answer =)

No problem. I am 19 too so carrying without a CPL sucks!!! Just make sure you unload and load outside your truck. I find it best to try to part where most people are not so no one sees you pulling out a gun. And stay away from those pesky liquor license establishments THEY'RE EVERYWHERE!!!!
 

SpringerXDacp

New member
Joined
May 12, 2006
Messages
3,341
Location
Burton, Michigan
I'm Currently 19 in Jackson Michigan. Ive been looking at Open Carrying for a while now but have been skeptical about what I have read online. Today I made a trip to the state police station and they very rudely denied to answer my questions and sent me to this website. That being said I have a few questions.

I am correct that the age is 18 to Carry in Michigan?

Yes, you are correct, but you are limited to open carry (OC) unless you're on your own property, business, or other property you lease/rent (MCL 750.227). You may also OC only in the places listed under MCL 750.234d if you have permission from the owner(s) or agent of the owner(s).

The age to purchase handgun ammo is 21 in Michigan, does this prevent me from owning or possessing handgun ammo?

The 21 or older age requirement is Federal for both ammo and handgun purchases throught the U.S., from licensed dealers. You may purchase, possess, pistol ammo obtained from private individuals, to include handguns at 18 years of age.

If so, what about hand-loads, Since I legally purchase my own materials and load my own rounds. (Although I would be carrying factory defense rounds.)

Except for purchase from a licensed dealer, there's no prohibition on reloads for 18 and over.

What are the stipulations on open carrying? Such as, does the safety legally need to be engaged, can there be one in the chamber ready to fire?

Personal preference on safety engagement, some prefer engaged, some not. Yes, a full mag and one in the pipe is legal.

Are there any stipulations on the amount of ammo, magazines, or the magazine size you are allowed to carry?

No, you may carry the amount you want. The Federal high capacity limitation (10 rounds max in mag) was repealed in Sept. 2004. Note: Some states such as California still recognize the law.

Does a separate pouch/holster carrying an extra clip also need to be Open or can that be concealed?

No limitations on pouches and holsters. Note: If you choose to OC, make sure you you an OWB type holster and make sure the holster and pistol is completely exposed.

If I was wearing a short sleeve T-shirt, tucked in, and my arm was at my side blocking view of the gun partially, unintentionally, does this consider it to be concealed?

In my opinion, no. However, if this is a big concern for you, you want to hold off on OC for a while until you become comfortable with the laws and/or obtain your CPL.

Also, I drive an S10, being such it has no real "Trunk". Does the locked case for transport need to be in the bed. Or can it be behind or under the passenger or drivers seat?

The case is not required by law to be locked in your situation. If by chance you have a tool box mounted in the bed, that would be the best option for transport. If not, the unloaded, encased pistol can be placed where it's not accessible by you or other occupants in the vehicle. Also, loaded mags and loose ammo may be transported in the case with the pistol. Just make sure there's no loaded mag in the well or a round in the pipe. (MCL 750.231a)
 

Ranard The Fox

New member
Joined
Aug 9, 2011
Messages
8
Location
Jackson Mi
No problem. I am 19 too so carrying without a CPL sucks!!! Just make sure you unload and load outside your truck. I find it best to try to part where most people are not so no one sees you pulling out a gun. And stay away from those pesky liquor license establishments THEY'RE EVERYWHERE!!!!

Ahh, Good to know there are other young carriers! On my visit to the police station after they had refused to answer my questions and told me they didn't have time to explain the law to me, they asked me why I was deciding to open carry. So I said to them "Because you wont let me conceal it until I'm 21." Then turned and left. Sure they weren't too happy about that.
 

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
6,462
Location
Lansing area, Michigan, USA
I'm Currently 19 in Jackson Michigan. Ive been looking at Open Carrying for a while now but have been skeptical about what I have read online. Today I made a trip to the state police station and they very rudely denied to answer my questions and sent me to this website. That being said I have a few questions.

I am correct that the age is 18 to Carry in Michigan? YES
The age to purchase handgun ammo is 21 in Michigan, does this prevent me from owning or possessing handgun ammo? NO, many rifles take handgun loads.

If so, what about hand-loads, Since I legally purchase my own materials and load my own rounds. (Although I would be carrying factory defense rounds.)Answered above.
What are the stipulations on open carrying? Way too broad a question. I can't belive you did find many answers from the links.

Such as, does the safety legally need to be engaged, NO
can there be one in the chamber ready to fire? YES
Are there any stipulations on the amount of ammo, magazines, or the magazine size you are allowed to carry? NO

Does a separate pouch/holster carrying an extra clip also need to be Open or can that be concealed? Ammo an be concealed

If I was wearing a short sleeve T-shirt, tucked in, and my arm was at my side blocking view of the gun partially, unintentionally, does this consider it to be concealed? Maybe, depends on the officer and the prosecutor, but common sense says it's not concealed. No more than if you OCed at night.

Also, I drive an S10, being such it has no real "Trunk". Does the locked case for transport need to be in the bed. Or can it be behind or under the passenger or drivers seat? As long as the pistol is unloaded and in a case you are okay. It does NOT have to be locked (May be a good idea) and the ammo can be in the case with the gun and magizines can be loaded, just not in the pistol.

750.231a Exceptions to MCL 750.227(2); definitions.Sec. 231a.
(1) Subsection (2) of section 227 does not apply to any of the following:
(a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.
(b) To the regular and ordinary transportation of pistols as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms.
(c) To a person carrying an antique firearm as defined in subsection (2), completely unloaded in a closed case or container designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of a vehicle.
(d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.
(e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

These are the places you can not possess a firearm, either in the building or in the parking lot.
Know them well.

750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
Sec. 234d.
(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
(b) A church or other house of religious worship.
(c) A court.
(d) A theatre.
(e) A sports arena.
(f) A day care center.
(g) A hospital.
(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws. This includes gas stations, party stores, Krogers any place that sells beer wine or liquors.
(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
(a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
(b) A peace officer.
(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
(d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.
(3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.


 
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Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
6,462
Location
Lansing area, Michigan, USA
Ahh, Good to know there are other young carriers! On my visit to the police station after they had refused to answer my questions and told me they didn't have time to explain the law to me, they asked me why I was deciding to open carry. So I said to them "Because you wont let me conceal it until I'm 21." Then turned and left. Sure they weren't too happy about that.


READ READ READ, before you ever carry, too many pitfalls and ways to FU. Make sure you understand the laws inside and out before you carry.
 

Ranard The Fox

New member
Joined
Aug 9, 2011
Messages
8
Location
Jackson Mi

Yes, you are correct, but you are limited to open carry (OC) unless you're on your own property, business, or other property you lease/rent (MCL 750.227). You may also OC only in the places listed under MCL 750.234d if you have permission from the owner(s) or agent of the owner(s).

Now that is new to me. What about public places, such as walking downtown, or in my case, I long-board a lot in area's that aren't so reputable. Is it legal to carry in public places as such? Also what about shopping center's such as a Meijer or a Wal-Mart, unless it's posted by sign or I am verbally asked to leave or not to carry, it is allowed in such places correct?
 

Ranard The Fox

New member
Joined
Aug 9, 2011
Messages
8
Location
Jackson Mi
READ READ READ, before you ever carry, too many pitfalls and ways to FU. Make sure you understand the laws inside and out before you carry.

That is the purpose of me being here. The State police refused to answer my questions about it and referred me here. And the local township police has no idea about the laws when i asked them and told me to contact the State police.
 

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA

SpringerXDacp

New member
Joined
May 12, 2006
Messages
3,341
Location
Burton, Michigan
Now that is new to me. What about public places, such as walking downtown, or in my case, I long-board a lot in area's that aren't so reputable. Is it legal to carry in public places as such? Also what about shopping center's such as a Meijer or a Wal-Mart, unless it's posted by sign or I am verbally asked to leave or not to carry, it is allowed in such places correct?

See 750.234d provided above by Venator. As I mentioned previously, you need permission from owner(s)/Agents to possess the firearm in those places listed under 750.234d. Unless you know the upper management of the stores that sell alcohol, I wouldn't bother asking for permission - it's usually a no win situation.
 

Ranard The Fox

New member
Joined
Aug 9, 2011
Messages
8
Location
Jackson Mi
See 750.234d provided above by Venator. As I mentioned previously, you need permission from owner(s)/Agents to possess the firearm in those places listed under 750.234d. Unless you know the upper management of the stores that sell alcohol, I wouldn't bother asking for permission - it's usually a no win situation.

So a store that sells liquor is off limits? While a store such as Dunhams or an Art Van or Clothing store that does not have a liquor license I do not need permission from the store owner to Carry?
 

SpringerXDacp

New member
Joined
May 12, 2006
Messages
3,341
Location
Burton, Michigan
Ahh, Good to know there are other young carriers! On my visit to the police station after they had refused to answer my questions and told me they didn't have time to explain the law to me, they asked me why I was deciding to open carry. So I said to them "Because you wont let me conceal it until I'm 21." Then turned and left. Sure they weren't too happy about that.

It's a shame, Indiana, Montana and South Dakota, to name a few, issue permits/licenses to carry at 18 years of age.
 

SpringerXDacp

New member
Joined
May 12, 2006
Messages
3,341
Location
Burton, Michigan
So a store that sells liquor is off limits? While a store such as Dunhams or an Art Van or Clothing store that does not have a liquor license I do not need permission from the store owner to Carry?

Unfortuantely, it's not just the store, it's the "premises." Meaning, the buillding(s) and all other property the building is on, to include the parking lot. See 750.234d
 

Ranard The Fox

New member
Joined
Aug 9, 2011
Messages
8
Location
Jackson Mi
Unfortuantely, it's not just the store, it's the "premises." Meaning, the buillding(s) and all other property the building is on, to include the parking lot. See 750.234d

Seems there would be an exemption in place for the parking lot or vehicles considering if they stay locked up, It isnt an issue.

But does that mean stores that dont sell liquor are legal to carry in without permission? And what about public roads and sidewalks?
 

xmanhockey7

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
1,195
Seems there would be an exemption in place for the parking lot or vehicles considering if they stay locked up, It isnt an issue.

But does that mean stores that dont sell liquor are legal to carry in without permission? And what about public roads and sidewalks?

Any place that has any liquor license you may not carry on their premises period. This would include a place like Meijers or Branns. You cannot carry on the premises of any of these places until you have a Michigan CPL.
750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
Sec. 234d. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
(b) A church or other house of religious worship.
(c) A court. (d) A theatre.
(e) A sports arena.
(f) A day care center.
(g) A hospital.
(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the
Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
(a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection
(1) if the
possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
(b) A peace officer. (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
(d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that
possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.
(3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more
than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.

Also don't take advice from police they could very well be wrong. I would suggest holding off on carrying until you learn the laws a little better. If you have anymore questions you can PM and we can talk on the phone if it'd be easier.

EDIT: And you're good on all public property because it is preempted and cities, townships, etc. cannot make an ordinance restricting firearms. And yes stores like Dunham's would be fine because they are not on the list I put above.
 
Last edited:

xmanhockey7

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
1,195
It's a shame, Indiana, Montana and South Dakota, to name a few, issue permits/licenses to carry at 18 years of age.

Maine in North Dakota do as well. I have my Maine in my wallet and am waiting on the North Dakota. Considering getting a New Hampshire because North Dakota is really being a pain about my application, but according to someone who has a ND permit they can be like that.
 
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