Alamance county denied my PPP

No we have to ask permission from the sheriff to buy a handgun unless you have a CHP which bypasses the pistol purchase permit

There is a law that says you can't buy a pistol if you have a misdemeanor that has a 2 yr sentence.
It was taken wrong.
My sentence was 30 days. But it was suspended for 2 yrs unsupervised probation.
That's where the misinterpretation came in.

...I found the state law here: http://www.ncdoj.gov/getdoc/32344299-a2a7-4ae5-99fd-9018262f64ac/NC-Firearms-gun-Laws.aspx

...on page 5, they have a heading for Federal requirements for purchase eligibility...they then on page 6 say that any crime for which you could have been sentenced to more than a year...and that is in error...

...what the actual federal rule is, from the Form 4473 itself, is that on page 4 of 6, under 11.b's instructions, it says(which the state omitted)
"(this does not include state misdemeanors punishable by imprisonment of two years or less)"

...so, even counting your probation of 2 years....it WASN'T imprisonment...it WASN'T over 2 years, and it WAS a misdemeanor...unless the state DOESN'T go by the Federal guidelines, which it says in that website that it does...you were always eligible.

sheepdog said:

...I found the state law here: http://www.ncdoj.gov/getdoc/32344299-a2a7-4ae5-99fd-9018262f64ac/NC-Firearms-gun-Laws.aspx
...on page 5, they have a heading for Federal requirements for purchase eligibility...they then on page 6 say that any crime for which you could have been sentenced to more than a year...and that is in error...
...what the actual federal rule is, from the Form 4473 itself, is that on page 4 of 6, under 11.b's instructions, it says(which the state omitted)
"(this does not include state misdemeanors punishable by imprisonment of two years or less)"
...so, even counting your probation of 2 years....it WASN'T imprisonment...it WASN'T over 2 years, and it WAS a misdemeanor...unless the state DOESN'T go by the Federal guidelines, which it says in that website that it does...you were always eligible.

Click to expand...

both of your kind attentions are drawn to the actual NC statute site (http://www.ncleg.net/gascripts/Site...jn1cirfegg&cof=FORID:11&q=firearm+sales&sa=Go) verses the NC attorney general's brochure which provides an overview on firearm issues from the AG's perspective.
(14.402)

additionally, you might research what the 'actual federal rule is' regarding federal firearm purchases verses looking at the form or the AG's brochure.
(ATF's 5300.4, dtd 2005 reference guide, http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf.)

bottom line NC statutes trump federal requirements as stated in 14.402 since w/o a sheriff's issued PPP of CHP individuals are not eligible to purchase a firearm in the state of NC and the ATF has stated NC FFLs will accept PPP/CHP in lieu of NICS background check.

ipse

...the latest revision of 5300.4 was published in Sept 2005...therefore 478.32(a)(1) is not up to date...however, what I quoted from ATF4473 (5300.9 )Part1 revised April 2012 IS up to date, and is correct...working from the 5300.4 will not always give you correct information...this is one of those times that it doesn't...trust the instructions on the form 4473...that is the document your truthfulness is compared to in case of dispute...

...not having experience in dealing with NC's laws/procedures and without wading through the actual law there, I can only take the publication by the AG's office as true...perhaps you can cite where in the mass of the NC law that the requirement is more strict than that of the Feds regarding a misdemeanor with two years or less possible imprisonment...

...I also see (http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-402.html) that a pistol purchase permit is not necessary if a NC carry permit is presented...and that the ATF has accepted the NC carry permit instead of a NICS check...quite a few states' permit programs qualify to be accepted by the Feds...

sheepdog said:

...the latest revision of 5300.4 was published in Sept 2005...therefore 478.32(a)(1) is not up to date...however, what I quoted from ATF4473 (5300.9 )Part1 revised April 2012 IS up to date, and is correct...working from the 5300.4 will not always give you correct information...this is one of those times that it doesn't...trust the instructions on the form 4473...that is the document your truthfulness is compared to in case of dispute...

...not having experience in dealing with NC's laws/procedures and without wading through the actual law there, I can only take the publication by the AG's office as true...perhaps you can cite where in the mass of the NC law that the requirement is more strict than that of the Feds regarding a misdemeanor with two years or less possible imprisonment...

Click to expand...

sigh...and you truly believe everything on the internet is true don't you?

fyi, the 4473 was updated in 2012 to incorporate alien provisions. and since when is information on a form any form binding as regulatory law.

second, you miss the point of my post...w/o the sheriff issuing a PPP or CHP to a NC citizen, an FFL, by NC statute, can not sell a firearm to said NC citizen. please read NC 14-404 provisions where you can see the sheriff has the latitude to deny issuing the PPP/CHP at their whim... the citizen has little recourse except to petition the county court for relief.

third, I, like most forum members, take posts of personal accounts on face value with the understanding there COULD be a lot of details left out or hyperbole added to assure the reporter is shown in a better light the 'system is out to screw' them.

finally, if you do not feel the need to do due diligence of wading into the statutes so you can speak from specific references, might wish to change your approach and quit giving advice from the seat of your pants.

ipse

solus said:

the 'system is out to screw' them.
<snip>

Click to expand...

Na, the system is there to expedite your gun purchases ...

Guns are easy to make ... just make them yourself.

I wonder if the OP could have made his own gun w/o the permission of Mr. Sheriff.

...nothing I posted has to do with "believing everything you read on the internet is true"....rather dealing with the ATF personally and getting my information from their agents and publications/forms...but it's easier for you to insult me than it is for you to check it out and see that I'm right...my post had nothing to do with "alien provisions", but with the FACT that the 4473 reflects the ATF laws/regulations that we must live with today, not as they were in 2005...that, too, comes from the ATF...but doesn't support your criticism...your snide remarks are duly noted and given their earned value
...you might find out "...since when is information on a form any form binding as regulatory law..." once you learn something about how the ATF does business...MUCH of what is VERY binding is not the same as it was when the last revision of any given publication was printed...try buying a gun WITHOUT answering their revised form completely, and, since you bring it up...find the latest revisions concerning "alien provisions" in 5300.4...not there...but well within the power given the ATF by law to enforce...

...I didn't choose to assume that the OP wasn't being honest with us...there are plenty that get their exercise doing that...I was discussing with him his case as he presented it to us...

...I would hardly say that it's "...giving advice from the seat of your pants..." to quote a current ATF form that I've had personal experience/instruction in understanding from the ATF, or quoting the site prepared by the AG of NC and published Feb 2014...but then I'm more interested in providing helpful information than belittling those here that do...

...not surprisingly, you failed to make what you claim to have been your point in your first post...you were too busy looking down your nose at what the OP and I were saying...but you sure did a thorough job of that, didn't you...very helpful to him or anyone else reading...or not...

sheepdog said:

...nothing I posted has to do with "believing everything you read on the internet is true"... I can only take the publication by the AG's office as true..rather dealing with the ATF personally and getting my information from their agents and publications/forms (interestingly, i have seen these exact sentiments espoused, almost word for word from a gentleman from AL/OH) ...but it's easier for you to insult me than it is for you to check it out and see that I'm right...my post had nothing to do with "alien provisions", but with the FACT that the 4473 reflects the ATF laws/regulations that we must live with today, not as they were in 2005...that, too, comes from the ATF...but doesn't support your criticism...your snide remarks are duly noted and given their earned value
...you might find out "...since when is information on a form any form binding as regulatory law..." once you learn something about how the ATF does business...MUCH of what is VERY binding is not the same as it was when the last revision of any given publication was printed...try buying a gun WITHOUT answering their revised form completely, and, since you bring it up...find the latest revisions concerning "alien provisions" in 5300.4...not there...but well within the power given the ATF by law to enforce...

...I didn't choose to assume that the OP wasn't being honest with us...there are plenty that get their exercise doing that...I was discussing with him his case as he presented it to us...

...I would hardly say that it's "...giving advice from the seat of your pants..." .I found the state law here: http://www.ncdoj.gov/getdoc/32344299...-gun-Laws.aspx...on page 5,they have a heading for Federal requirements for purchase eligibility...they then on page 6 say that any crime for which you could have been sentenced to more than a year...and that is in error.. (this does not include state misdemeanors punishable by imprisonment of two years or less)" ...so, even counting your probation of 2 years....it WASN'T imprisonment...it WASN'T over 2 years, and it WAS a misdemeanor...unless the state DOESN'T go by the Federal guidelines, which it says in that website that it does...you were always eligible. . to quote a current ATF form that I've had personal experience/instruction in understanding from the ATF, or quoting the site prepared by the AG of NC and published Feb 2014...but then I'm more interested in providing helpful information than belittling those here that do...

...not surprisingly, you failed to make what you claim to have been your point in your first post...you were too busy looking down your nose at what the OP and I were saying...but you sure did a thorough job of that, didn't you...very helpful to him or anyone else reading...or not...

Click to expand...

here we go...
1. highlighted areas are your specific quotes from posts to this thread...

2. if you research your regulation you are stuck on 478.32 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.32) go to the bottom of the cite you will find which federal register the latest changed came from, in this case, 77 FR 33629, June 7, 2012. if by chance you click on that underlined link it will take you to the appropriate federal register and you will notice portions of 478.32 are missing and have an * for some paragraphs and others, changed or added material...concerning alien. these changes are what the 4473 was changed for, a kinder and gentler administration attitude towards aliens. strange isn't that what i what stated, huh!

your belief the form is a better source of regulatory information than the specific federal regulation shows a bit of nativity which is quite disturbing. understand one thing, the advice you are getting from ATF agents, they will deny giving you as they are handcuffing you for violating federal firearm regulations while you are clinging to the 4473 stating at the top of your voice this is correct information. in the future, please let your FFL handle regulatory questions.

3. your rant about quoting NC AG's statement which you state is in error and which you state the AG's brochure is true as is your limited knowledge of quoting the 4473 as a viable regulatory cite because as you stated:.. quote... without wading through the actual law there,...unquote

lends the reader to perceive you have not done due diligence and therefore deserve the comment about by the seat of your pants.

by the way even tho you didn't research it certainly sounded like based on your interpretation of the 4473 and the AG's brochure you were giving advice to the OP.

4. i am sorry you do not understand NC statues because you refused to research them, but as mentioned, in the Tarheel state, as stated in 14-402, unless billy bob has a PPP/CHP given to them by their local county sheriff, no FFL nor John Q Private citizen, if they are aware of the NC statutes, will sell a firearm to billy bob. 14-404 gives the county sheriff extreme latitude on granting a PPP/CHP and if the sheriff says billy bob is denied, the citizen must go to county court for relief.

to be clear once again, NC statutes trump federal regulations, no matter what your silly 4473 says.

now, if you review this thread, you will find, initially the OP had his PPP/CHP denied by the county sheriff...no firearm!

the OP got his situation cleared up, (OP GLAD TO HEAR BTW), and now has his PPP/CHP in hand and can now purchase and OC/CC a firearm in the Tarheel state.

finally, if you feel you were talked to in a condescending tone ~ you were!! because you failed to research NC statutes as well as apply the information others provided, yet scream i didn't look at your references...seems your shoes are on backwards!

if you felt insulted... get over yourself ~ naw'lll didn't even happen in my posts because if i had insulted you, you would have been acutely aware of it

ipse.

...you can persist in saying the 4473 isn't important...and keep referring to the "alien" revision you so carefully researched...but that doesn't change the FACT that the latest version of the 4473 is what we buy a gun with...and the part I originally quoted is THEIR official explanation of how to answer the questions...and it's STILL not in the 5300.4...but it's law...and binding...whether you accept it or not...and your original beef was that I needed to go to the 5300.4 instead of the 4473 for the law...sorry but that's not so in this case...the thread isn't about "aliens"...it's about being forbidden to buy a gun under applicable laws or not...and my personal experience operating under the Federal laws both as an FFL and a customer, as well as successfully completing several audits of the 4473/bound book carries a bit more weight than your saying such as this:

"..your belief the form is a better source of regulatory information than the specific federal regulation shows a bit of nativity which is quite disturbing. understand one thing, the advice you are getting from ATF agents, they will deny giving you as they are handcuffing you for violating federal firearm regulations while you are clinging to the 4473 stating at the top of your voice this is correct information. in the future, please let your FFL handle regulatory questions." sounds real superior...but ignores the facts...and my personal experience in dealing with the ATF over the years...

...for those who care to READ and learn what the 4473 actually says: http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf
...the question which arose was the proper way to answer 11b and the instructions from the ATF explain their ruling...which DOES have the force of law...and has been working quite well and quite often to the buyer's benefit...

...the NC AG's presentation of the Federal requirements IS in error as printed...it doesn't tell the whole story...it omits the part about a state misdemeanor with 2 years or less sentence not applying to the rule as printed...in this case, it would make a big difference...

...as the OP said, the rule was misunderstood by the Sheriff...nothing in § 14-415.12. Criteria to qualify for the issuance of a permit
would disqualify the OP...and DIDN'T years ago...from buying a gun in NC...the Sheriff made a mistake, and, upon appeal and the court's reading the actual law...they would have corrected it...

...nothing I told the OP was wrong...whether I went back to the original state code and read every word or not...I asked you to cite where the NC law says "misdemeanor with possible sentence of 2 years or less" results in a turndown... § 14-415.12. doesn't...just certain types of misdemeanor...or a felony...but I understand that you probably don't have time to read ALL of NC's applicable statutes before posting, either...

...the OP was INITIALLY granted a PPP...and, more recently, denied one by a Sheriff who didn't properly apply NC law...and that has been corrected...

...oh, and for those that don't put any weight in the "silly 4473"...I researched the "Big Boy" law that makes the "misdemeanor under two years" real...


18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(20)(B),

(20) The term “crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year” does not include—
(A) any Federal or State offenses pertaining to antitrust violations, unfair trade practices, restraints of trade, or other similar offenses relating to the regulation of business practices, or

(B) any State offense classified by the laws of the State as a misdemeanor and punishable by a term of imprisonment of two years or less.

...of course, I DID read it on the internet...

Get a lawyer!

I am not a lawyer, and no lawyers were harmed in this post. Get a freaken lawyer, get your record expunged, problem solved.

My question is~~On the terms of the probation for 2 years, what is the sentence to be carried out if the probation is violated. If it can be 2 years then the sheriff is correct, IMO. If a person is convicted of murder then only sentenced to 6 months of prison, and lifetime probation they are still a felon. If you are convicted of a crime and the punishment is up to 2 years it does not matter IMO how much you actually served, or if it was probation you served.

GET A LAWYER!

...if NC has a law that says that, it's true...for NC...but under Federal law, if it's a state misdemeanor with sentence two years or less, it doesn't count as a felony...though other things may come into play, ie family violence, that would disqualify him...for the crime he posted about...the possible sentence was much shorter...(post #7)

forgive me, but what the devil is the title of this thread? 'denied my PPP'.

i am sorry you still do not understand the concept that as stated in NC statues, unless billy bob has a PPP/CHP given to them by their local county sheriff, no FFL nor John Q Private citizen, if they are aware of the NC statutes, will sell a firearm to billy bob. 14-404 gives the county sheriff extreme latitude on granting a PPP/CHP and if the sheriff says billy bob is denied, the citizen must go to county court for relief.

to be reiterate once again, NC statutes trump federal regulations, no matter what your silly 4473 says ~ go toddle off and call your local and friendly ATF agent and see what advice you get on that subject. while you have them on the phone, ask the agent their thoughts are of your premise the form is the equivalent law superseding CFR! better yet, please record the conversation so you can sell tickets as i would buy one.

it is a form to record information, to assist the FFL or in your case, clerk, to provide concise information about the buyer to complete the call to NICS. it is a transaction record ~ period nothing more nothing less. information could be written on a napkin for what it is worth.

finally as i initially pointed out, the AG's brochure is THEIR perception of the laws, it is known to have deficiencies, which is used by NC citizens as a guide, like an operator manual to your lawnmower, etc., so if you show up with that document to a judicial setting you will be laughed back to village that is actively looking for you.

wait a moment, let quantify something for you which you might not be aware of.. in the Tarheel state, FFL's are not mandated nor required to run NICS checks of NC citizens who present PPP/CHP at the time of firearm purchase per both federal and NC statute.

now toddle off from whence you came and sort your FFL's Form 4473s and talk w/your nice agents.

(wow this conversation is certainly reminiscent of the AL/OH ffl clerk i have had previously ~ except they followed corp advice instead of ATF guidance)

ipse

sheepdog said:

...if NC has a law that says that, it's true...for NC...but under Federal law, if it's a state misdemeanor with sentence two years or less, it doesn't count as a felony...though other things may come into play, ie family violence, that would disqualify him...for the crime he posted about...the possible sentence was much shorter...(post #7)

Click to expand...

Are you a lawyer?

BTW the feds do not issue PPP, the NC county does.

WalkingWolf said:

I am not a lawyer, and no lawyers were harmed in this post. Get a freaken lawyer, get your record expunged, problem solved.

My question is~~On the terms of the probation for 2 years, what is the sentence to be carried out if the probation is violated. If it can be 2 years then the sheriff is correct, IMO. If a person is convicted of murder then only sentenced to 6 months of prison, and lifetime probation they are still a felon. If you are convicted of a crime and the punishment is up to 2 years it does not matter IMO how much you actually served, or if it was probation you served.

GET A LAWYER!

Click to expand...

WW this poster isn't the initial grieved citizen ~ matt is, however, sheepwhatever is conjecturing their take on the situation and incorrectly posting his two cents of mis-information.

interestingly matt did get his issue resolved and now has their CHP as stated when they resurrected this thread after two years which is appreciated for the update.

ipse

Solus, for a FFL I am surprised that he is not aware that states may enact laws more restrictive than federal laws. If a state law is written that states legal what a fed law states is illegal, it is still illegal. If the state law says you must spin three times, and click your heels three times to buy a firearm then you must spin three times, and click your heels three times. He just does not grasp that concept.

solus said:

WW this poster isn't the initial grieved citizen ~ matt is, however, sheepwhatever is conjecturing their take on the situation and incorrectly posting his two cents of mis-information.

interestingly matt did get his issue resolved and now has their CHP as stated when they resurrected this thread after two years which is appreciated for the update.

ipse

Click to expand...

Awww I missed that, these necro threads always bite my in the arse. Glad his issue was resolved, now back to our regular programming...

WalkingWolf said:

Solus, for a FFL I am surprised that he is not aware that states may enact laws more restrictive than federal laws. If a state law is written that states legal what a fed law states is illegal, it is still illegal. If the state law says you must spin three times, and click your heels three times to buy a firearm then you must spin three times, and click your heels three times. He just does not grasp that concept.

Click to expand...

you know eye95 worked for an ffl on base actually spouted off the same way about FFL procedures as well as stating he constantly called the cincy agents for advice. this individual has not stated they are in fact an FFl coupled with the way they cling to the fallacy the 4473 is the law instead of a record, it makes me wonder...

ya and you know i gotta go there...

MOV'G ON!

ipse...

solus said:

forgive me, but what the devil is the title of this thread? 'denied my PPP'.

i am sorry you still do not understand the concept that as stated in NC statues, unless billy bob has a PPP/CHP given to them by their local county sheriff, no FFL nor John Q Private citizen, if they are aware of the NC statutes, will sell a firearm to billy bob. 14-404 gives the county sheriff extreme latitude on granting a PPP/CHP and if the sheriff says billy bob is denied, the citizen must go to county court for relief.

to be reiterate once again, NC statutes trump federal regulations, no matter what your silly 4473 says ~ go toddle off and call your local and friendly ATF agent and see what advice you get on that subject. while you have them on the phone, ask the agent their thoughts are of your premise the form is the equivalent law superseding CFR! better yet, please record the conversation so you can sell tickets as i would buy one.

it is a form to record information, to assist the FFL or in your case, clerk, to provide concise information about the buyer to complete the call to NICS. it is a transaction record ~ period nothing more nothing less. information could be written on a napkin for what it is worth.

finally as i initially pointed out, the AG's brochure is THEIR perception of the laws, it is known to have deficiencies, which is used by NC citizens as a guide, like an operator manual to your lawnmower, etc., so if you show up with that document to a judicial setting you will be laughed back to village that is actively looking for you.



now toddle off from whence you came and sort your FFL's Form 4473s and talk w/your nice agents.
wait a moment, let quantify something for you which you might not be aware of.. in the Tarheel state, FFL's are not mandated nor required to run NICS checks of NC citizens who present PPP/CHP at the time of firearm purchase per both federal and NC statute.
(wow this conversation is certainly reminiscent of the AL/OH ffl clerk i have had previously ~ except they followed corp advice instead of ATF guidance)

ipse

Click to expand...

...you began your little criticism campaign by chastising me for not referencing ATF5300.4 instead of the 4473...and chastising me for using the AG's guide as a reference...and you go to great lengths to explain that "guides" aren't proper references...when the 5300.4 is titled "Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide"...and has at least one proven deficiency/error in it...proven by the actual law on which it's based that I referenced above...but the ATF gives it to every FFL to do business from...and it's been that way for many years...
...so I guess it's just YOUR chosen "guides" that should be the acceptable authority...the rules are different for the rest of us mere mortals...


...as to your great revelation:
" ... wait a moment, let quantify something for you which you might not be aware of.. in the Tarheel state, FFL's are not mandated nor required to run NICS checks of NC citizens who present PPP/CHP at the time of firearm purchase per both federal and NC statute."
...sorry...if you'd read/comprehend my post #25, you'd see that I posted that information...and quoted the legal source...which is also posted in the GUIDE that the AG puts out http://www.ncdoj.gov/getdoc/32344299-a2a7-4ae5-99fd-9018262f64ac/NC-Firearms-gun-Laws.aspx

...so that kinda goes pffffffft...don't it...

...I still think you'd rather argue and criticize than post helpful info...go for it, if I want another conversation like this one, I'll call my ex-wife...

WalkingWolf said:

Are you a lawyer?

BTW the feds do not issue PPP, the NC county does.

Click to expand...

...nope, not a lawyer...but years of FFL work and dealing with the ATF/federal gun laws have taught me enough to answer simple questions and back them up in the federal publications...

...no confusion on who issues PPP in NC...nor did I state that the feds do...nor did my posts mingle the two...