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Thoughts on helping to normalize open carry

denwego

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It's been a long while since I've posted anything, mainly since there isn't much day to day OC stuff to discuss in Houston, but with the current upswing in OC-related news, my thoughts turn to more actively helping the cause!

So, the big thing of late has been long gun OC, obviously, since it's our only legal firearm recourse in Texas. One of the reasons why I enjoyed OCing when I lived in Colorado and Virginia was the freedom of knowing that it required no permit or other licensure to exercise our rights. And when you get down to it, Texas is essentially constitutional-carry when it comes to long guns, as we can OC or CC them in almost every location without any license or permit. Sensibly speaking, if we had that level of freedom regarding handguns, it would be fantastic. Ergo, it seems like the best way to affect the changes we want regarding carrying pistols is to focus more on the potential normalcy of carrying pistols, itself, versus drawing parallels with long arms.

We who support carrying firearms, whether openly or concealed, tend not to be unusually phased by the concept of carrying them by mere definition. More so, we are aware that there’s no functional difference between carrying a rifle or carrying a pistol, if the mere objective is to carry ANY firearm. (I mean not to digress into a discussion of “shotgun v. revolver” in a specific situation, obviously; it goes without saying that WE know when we’d rather have a rifle in a hurricane, riot, or other non-day-to-day scenario.) But that having been said, we are also the type who understand that there’s no functional difference between an all black AR-15 and a wood furniture Mini-14; our closeness to the issue can make objective observation difficult or impossible in comparison to those who only casually dabble in firearms, or who own guns but take no invested stance on any deeper issue.

My point of stating our closeness to the issue is that appearances take on a differing meaning for us versus the larger, observing public. If our goal were to be the normality of carrying long arms in particular, then carrying long arms would be the chief method to affect such. But with our goal being the legalization of openly carrying handguns, it behooves us more, in my mind, to normalize that, rather than rifles or shotguns.

It’s quite hard to normalize that, though, since we’re trying to normalize a practice illegal under most circumstances. To that end, I know many folks have turned to carrying blackpowder revolvers, as they’re not beholden to §46.02. And let’s be honest; carrying a pistol in a belt holster is much less disagreeable to the average member of the public than a slung rifle, even though WE know there’s little functional contrast. Since our goal is a political statement and not actual self-defense at that very moment and place, there’s no direct argument in favor of a long arm, since the technological deficiencies of a cap and ball from 1858 are meaningless. It also improves our perception amongst the only people who should truly matter to us, the “undecideds”; the MDA / anti-gun crowd don’t care if we have a tank, a cannon, an AK-47, a Sig 226, or a bright pink cap gun, since they’re unmanned by any firearm whatsoever. The one downside to the antique firearm route is that very few LEO’s are going to know the fine points of the law regarding unlawfully carrying weapons, the definition of a firearm & handgun as applied, and the inapplicability to non-authentic replicas. WE know them, but it’s a perilous situation when we’re in the real world, so to speak.

To that end, I’ve been thinking since last September of air guns. To wit, preemption was extended to air guns as well as firearms, making them legal to carry openly or concealed, own, possess, transport, etc., across the state. Now, none of us would be foolish enough to carry a BB gun for self defense, since that’s the sort of stuff that gets you killed in the real world… but we’re not in the “real world” here, after all; we’re in the world of political theater, hoping to affect a change in laws. And we really should remember that statement in particular, that we’re engaged in theatrics, and politics, and a PR campaign to swing enough votes in the state to change things in the way we want them to change. Antagonizing, or at minimum reducing our PR stockpile, is counterproductive in politics.

My proposition, thus, is now that it’s universally legal to openly carry an air gun, BB gun, or airsoft gun thanks to preemption, that this is a tool we can use to more directly approach and simulate the situations we hope to earn with actual firearms. More expressly, outside of an organized pro-OC rally or demonstration, we could print up some T-shirts which say something along the lines of, “No, it’s not a real gun, but you’d be just as safe and unharmed if it were / Legalize Open Carry”. It need not be that hokey, but you get my drift; I would want to start positive dialogues with people on the street, in the store, and maybe even with LEOs who would eventually probably show up sooner or later. We should be like politicians in the sense that we’ll win more people over with shaking hands, getting people to nod and smile, and not force people too quickly into either a pro-OC or anti-OC corner. If someone’s unused to guns and goes, “OMG, is that a REAL GUN?”, and you say, “no, BUT…”, I feel we can use that in many circumstances.

One argument you can give against an air gun is that it trivializes carrying a firearm, that it’s a toy rather than a weapon. However, I would retort by saying that we have to push public perception away from “a firearm is always a life or death situation!” to a fair degree before we can truly even begin to normalize any sort of open carry in a state which has lacked it for so long. Some people are going to have a visceral, instinctual, and fearful reaction to a firearms which can be partially diffused and mollified by the fact that most people are not utterly terrified of a BB gun. Some of those folks, and others on our side of the issue would then laugh, make lite of the situation… our point isn’t to win a manliness contest, not to actually possess a lethal weapon at that time. It’s politics. It’s perception. A lack of fear can be very fruitful to reduce hate. People who chuckle at something you’re doing generally don’t hate what you’re doing. We don’t necessarily need people to AGREE with us, just not DISAGREE with us, and that is a very important distinction in political matters.

Thoughts? Agree or disagree? I’m curious to hear both ways!
 

Jack House

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Way too much text to say "hey maybe we should carry black powder instead of long guns."

To that I say no. Do what you want, I'll support you. But I'm not going to.

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denwego

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Carry a toy? Or a BB gun?

boy oh boy ...

Just carry a real gun...you'll get treated the same.

That did make me chuckle if only in that I can pretty much guarantee you that carrying a toy gun will not get you the same reaction as carrying an AR-15, or carrying a real 1911... but I doubt that was the point of your casually derisive disdain. My emphasis is that unless you're planning to shoot a rifle as a consequence of carrying the rifle, the reality of what you hope to affect is perception. Long arms generate more attention, of course, and sometimes attention is what you may want, because you need to get the issue some TV time after all. However, I don't think we need an endless stream of martyrs chalking up arrests, false charges, and the like; getting people to think on more neutral ground helps with grassroot support. People are much more receptive to changing opinions or perceptions when they don't feel immediately threatened; if a "toy," as you put it, starts a non-threatening conversation which in turn moves a single person over to being more open to legalizing handgun open carry, I feel our purpose has been helped.

Likewise, my point isn't to compare long arm vs. blackpowder pistol vs. air gun carry directly under universal conditions, but rather to see what people's opinions were on the situational effectiveness of each of them as we hopefully make progress towards our goals. I can boil it down to a single posit of opinion, if that helps with more effective discussion - long arm carry, effective in a rally or demonstration environment; BP pistol or air gun, effective in a more casual, starting a discussion with the man on the street sort of way.

Thoughts or opinions on that?
 

HPmatt

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I don't think I would OC an airgun. Maybe CC and have a button - "Ask me about Open Carry"

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denwego

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I don't think I would OC an airgun. Maybe CC and have a button - "Ask me about Open Carry"

That's sort of the vein in which I was thinking. Something which identifies the issue specifically and encourages discussion, rather than forcing discussion... it's good psychology.

Buttons, t-shirts, carrying an airgun, BP revolver, OCing empty holsters, just signs on the wall... I think there's a lot of more non-confrontational ammo to be spent.
 

Jack House

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Honestly, MDA's dive into the crazy pool is actually a good thing. They've gone rabid and are screaming wolf at the top of their lungs. But there is no wolf and it can be proven. When you prove someone has told one lie, it tends to seriously damage their credibility, when you prove they lie as much as MDA has, it destroys it.

We have an opportunity to expose MDA for what they are, extremists. We should take that opportunity and run with it. Not try to hide from them.

Anti-rights groups have bottomed out over the past decade, Brady Bunch shriveled up and died with no funding. MDA is being wholly funded by a billionaire in a time where a lot of people are getting really fed up with deep pockets influencing American politics. We need to use these facts to our advantage.
 

stealthyeliminator

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The only downside to carrying a bp revolver is that I'd have to buy a bp revolver, a firearm (though not legally) that I honestly have no desire to own. Already own a rifle, though.

I've also decided to not carry anything, such as certain air guns, which could easily be mistaken as a real handgun as to not give any police officer reasonable suspicion or probably cause that I may be carrying a real and modern handgun.

But I see what you're saying and I believe it's a valid point.

Oh and there have been very few education issues that I'm aware of as far as carrying bp revolvers. I think the only issues I'm aware of were with the out of control dps officers at the capital. Outside of that I'm not aware of any issues carrying a bp revolver
 
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SA-TX

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The only downside to carrying a bp revolver is that I'd have to buy a bp revolver, a firearm (though not legally) that I honestly have no desire to own. Already own a rifle, though.

I've also decided to not carry anything, such as certain air guns, which could easily be mistaken as a real handgun as to not give any police officer reasonable suspicion or probably cause that I may be carrying a real and modern handgun.

But I see what you're saying and I believe it's a valid point.

Oh and there have been very few education issues that I'm aware of as far as carrying bp revolvers. I think the only issues I'm aware of were with the out of control dps officers at the capital. Outside of that I'm not aware of any issues carrying a bp revolver

It isn't just BP revolvers that are legally antiques. IIRC any firearm made before 1899. I have an early 1890s S&W lemon squeezer chambered in S&W .38. Ammo is easily available and it works just like a modern revolver. There are other choices in handguns and perhaps on will appeal to you.
 

SA-TX

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Way too much text to say "hey maybe we should carry black powder instead of long guns."

To that I say no. Do what you want, I'll support you. But I'm not going to.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

My suggestion would be to begin the socialization AFTER we have legal OC of handguns in TX. When we do, start with friends / family / community by having a BBQ or a picnic. You want any coverage that results to be positive. You want all observers to see that having a visible sidearm doesn't keep kids from safely playing, adults from socializing, everyone from having a normal fun gathering. The above has been done with excellent positive impact in other OC states. Litter pickup was another.
 

WalkingWolf

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Get permits, buy a conceal carry badge, ball cap and polo shirt. Or stand up for your rights against the hoplophobes and yankees. There is no difference between a OC long gun, handgun, or antique firearm, they are all inanimate objects. Why empower carpetbaggers and hoplophobes?
 

WalkingWolf

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It isn't just BP revolvers that are legally antiques. IIRC any firearm made before 1899. I have an early 1890s S&W lemon squeezer chambered in S&W .38. Ammo is easily available and it works just like a modern revolver. There are other choices in handguns and perhaps on will appeal to you.
If you reread the federal law you will find that a lemon squeezer is a firearm, readily available ammo. It is a curio though, which has all the same rules as a firearm. If Texas statutes mirror federal law, you are advising a illegal act.

As defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(16) the term “antique firearm” means —

any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica —
is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or

any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term ‘antique firearm’ shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon, which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination
 
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SA-TX

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If you reread the federal law you will find that a lemon squeezer is a firearm, readily available ammo. It is a curio though, which has all the same rules as a firearm. If Texas statutes mirror federal law, you are advising a illegal act.

As defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(16) the term “antique firearm” means —

any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica —
is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or

any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term ‘antique firearm’ shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon, which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination

How so? It is a firearm made in 1893 (I think - I know it I early 1890s but I'll have to refer back to my S&W archive paperwork) not a replica.
 
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SA-TX

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Get permits, buy a conceal carry badge, ball cap and polo shirt. Or stand up for your rights against the hoplophobes and yankees. There is no difference between a OC long gun, handgun, or antique firearm, they are all inanimate objects. Why empower carpetbaggers and hoplophobes?

Few argue that Texas law is good today and that's why we want to change it. What is politically possible in the upcoming session is licensed OC. Not ideal, to be sure, but an improvement. I know opinions differ but mine I that OCing anything right now doesn't help the cause. Once we have licensed OC, then making it more socially acceptable can begin. Until then we run the risk of not being able to pass even that.

The way that TX gets laws made makes it very difficult to pass controversial items (because of the blocker bill in the Senate). Additionally, if the chairman of the committee, the Speaker of the House, or the Lt. Governor want to block a bill they can no matter how many rank-and-file members support it. Additionally we only have a short session every other year so only the highest priority items get done. The most efficient path is something supported by most members (we are good there) and that doesn't have much grass-roots opposition (this is what we must be careful not to generate).

Bottom line: We can't try to get from where we are to full liberty in one session. We've too much bad history to undo. I urge everyone to think long-term like the progressives do. Use incrementalism to our advantage.
 

WalkingWolf

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Texas IS A VERY VERY RED STATE! There should be no problem of the people getting fully what they want, except for a lack of will, and a desire to keep the status quo.

IOW just toooooooo many people for one reason or another who are intentionally blocking the rights that belong to all Texans. Be it CC instructors, or others that make a buck off the CC trade, to NRA fanboys who buy the garbage pushed on them, to the closet hoplophobes. If Arizona can get constitutional carry across the board, Texas should be able to at least get constitutional open carry.

Anything else is just continuing the same old garbage. OC only with a permit means no OC at all except for those who are young and want to carry, or the patriots who know that CC is a privilege only, and not a right.

I suspect a infusion of yankees though trying to keep their status will on the people of Texas.
 

SA-TX

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Texas IS A VERY VERY RED STATE! There should be no problem of the people getting fully what they want, except for a lack of will, and a desire to keep the status quo.

IOW just toooooooo many people for one reason or another who are intentionally blocking the rights that belong to all Texans. Be it CC instructors, or others that make a buck off the CC trade, to NRA fanboys who buy the garbage pushed on them, to the closet hoplophobes. If Arizona can get constitutional carry across the board, Texas should be able to at least get constitutional open carry.

Anything else is just continuing the same old garbage. OC only with a permit means no OC at all except for those who are young and want to carry, or the patriots who know that CC is a privilege only, and not a right.

I suspect a infusion of yankees though trying to keep their status will on the people of Texas.

I had a much longer post but lost it.

In summary, review the history of Texas' shameful 130 year history of handgun regulation and compare that to AZ, AK, VT and other constitutional carry states to understand the context & differences. Considering the hurdles to legislation that I mentioned above, I believe licensed OC is what we can get this session. I assure you, I am in favor of constitutional carry and would advocate for it if I thought it had a chance of passing. I don't. Therefore I want to get what we can.

Sad as it is, many Yankee states have unlicensed OC and we do not. I do not believe it is their influx that is holding 2A rights back. As our recent elections show, it is usually the most conservative candidate who wins. Unfortunately legislative rules, fiefdoms, and other political factors mean that even in a Legislature filled with 2A supporters, just one or two powerful enemies can sink a bill. It is NOT majority rules.

SA-TX
 
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WalkingWolf

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It is as a whole servitude attitude that is holding Texas back. Gun control on it's current level was brought to Texas by Yankees, and Yankees are still pulling the strings. Some Texans step to the plate and fight for rights, some succumb to the mighty government and some even relish it.

BTW post the names of these in legislature holding it back, and cite the references they have either made in person, or email, or memo?

I tire quickly of using so and so as a excuse, name them, so the Texan members can confront them. And name them with proof.
 
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Jack House

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SATX, you want us to change directions, why?

Because MDA is lying about us? They're telling lies so you want to run and hide, is that it? Doing that just means you will be legitimizing their lies, is that what you want?

Instead of hiding, why don't you help expose their lies m

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SA-TX

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It is as a whole servitude attitude that is holding Texas back. Gun control on it's current level was brought to Texas by Yankees, and Yankees are still pulling the strings. Some Texans step to the plate and fight for rights, some succumb to the mighty government and some even relish it.

BTW post the names of these in legislature holding it back, and cite the references they have either made in person, or email, or memo?

I tire quickly of using so and so as a excuse, name them, so the Texan members can confront them. And name them with proof.

The results speak for themselves. Speaker Straus, a Republican who has the gavel due to more Democratic support than to his own party, appointed Democrat Joe Pickett chairman of the committee that heard the OC bill. It never got a vote in committee. The 2A community knows this but average Texas voters may not.

Until Straus leaves the speakers post, we are dealing with someone who is not a conservative but wields enormous power. Could the Republican caucus solidify behind someone else and defeat him? Sure but there are some R members who benefit from his Speakership. One member has announced plans to challenge him and we'll see how that goes.

Given these circumstances, how do you propose that we process?

On the Senate side, Lt. Gov.-nominee Dan Patrick is highly likely to be an ally and Gov. Greg Abbot would sign an OC bill, but we have to get something through the House.

SA-TX
 
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SA-TX

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SATX, you want us to change directions, why?

Because MDA is lying about us? They're telling lies so you want to run and hide, is that it? Doing that just means you will be legitimizing their lies, is that what you want?

Instead of hiding, why don't you help expose their lies m

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I agree with OCT and Come and Take it Texas that a change of tactics I called for.

http://opencarrytexas.wordpress.com/2014/05/23/joint-statement-on-oc-of-long-arms/
 
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