Officer Safety

ManInBlack said:

Not only do police officers not have an especially dangerous job, even if they did, one would presume that police are paid precisely to assume risks the rest of the population is not required to (and paid quite handsomely, when one factors in benefits). There is no draft for police officers in this country; they may come and go as they please. If a particular police officer finds himself too scared to treat each person encountered as a citizen with rights to be protected, rather than as a civilian to be ordered into compliance, he should seek other employment, preferably in the productive sector.

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The first part of this quote boggles my mind. Have you done police work? I'm sure if you add up the base salary and benefits of an NYPD officer they seem inflated to someone making 40k in an office job, but then again the cost of living in NYC is horrendous. I assure you the police officers in my area don't get paid anywhere NEAR that, benefits included. As well, the pay scale being so low for the purported risk is an anomaly, as law enforcement is a public sector career and thus not subject to private sector compensation logic. After all, the firefighters in my area get paid roughly the same and their job is just as dangerous. Everyone likes firefighters though, as they don't write people tickets. And to save you time, I'll add the inevitable response of "Firefighters don't infringe your rights either!" right now. That particular angle has already been covered extensively elsewhere.

Kivuli said:

The first part of this quote boggles my mind. Have you done police work? I'm sure if you add up the base salary and benefits of an NYPD officer they seem inflated to someone making 40k in an office job, but then again the cost of living in NYC is horrendous.

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The cost of living is just as hrorendous to the guy making 40k in an office job

But how about Seattle? I used to live there; not nearly as expensive as NYC.

http://www.seattle.gov/police/jobs/benefits/salary.htm
http://www.seattle.gov/police/jobs/benefits/benefits.htm

Recruits earn $24.56/hr at the Academy, then they start at $64,310.40 annually. 30 days after starting, they get medical/dental/vision/life insurance. They receive $550/year for a uniform allowance. They get union (and police) representation. Not a bad gig at all.

As well, the pay scale being so low for the purported risk is an anomaly, as law enforcement is a public sector career and thus not subject to private sector compensation logic.

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You're right. In the private sector, they would be paid far less, because their job isn't very dangerous.

After all, the firefighters in my area get paid roughly the same and their job is just as dangerous.

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Likewise, firefighters do not have that dangerous of a profession. In fact, they don't make the top-10 of occupational mortality. The pizza delivery kid is more likely to be killed in the line of duty than police or firefighters.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, one of the other perks they receive is being able to reliably count on statist sycophants within the general population who will always leap to the defense of anyone wearing the uniform of the state's armed priesthood, protesting that their job is unbelievably dangerous and something we mere sheep can never comprehend, so we should just let the sheepdogs do as they will and be thankful for their beneficient protection.

I see that I will never budge your opinion with calm discussion so I will cease to try. I shall agree to disagree.

Well, in all honesty, facts would probably have been better to use, but we all choose our own methods.

Kivuli said:

I see that I will never budge your opinion with calm discussion so I will cease to try. I shall agree to disagree.

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In other words, you can't argue with the numbers or statistics that I posted, and don't want to admit you were wrong. Okey-dokey.

I just go by OSHA stats ... and laugh at police who think their job is more dangerous than mine.

Aside from the statistical debate, the more noxious by-product of officer safety is the attitude that their lives are always of higher value than anyone around them including civilians. I would say the majority of all officer involved shootings of criminals and innocents alike are rarely if ever prosecuted as criminal acts such as our Guerena shooting in Tucson, AZ. Even the clown posses that are voluntary auxiliaries are full of weapons malpractice such as the AZ Ranger who recently holstered his gun in his holster with his finger in the trigger and suffered the agony of a bullet track through his leg and out of his ankle at our local range.

I think an even more important statistic is how many folks are injured or die at the hands of cops in America who are guilty of no crime such as the child run down during a high-speed chase or victim of brutal tasing or weapons firing from the "black and blue" line. Good luck in finding those numbers, BTW.

When I went to Guerena's house for the memorial service, 21 of the rounds fired by the Pima Co SD SWAT hit the PERIPHERY of Guerena (he took an hour and a half to bleed out because the deputies would not permit first responders to render aid while his wife and child watched him pass slowly into the Fates) and the remaining 50+ rounds were scattered about the house including seven in the neighbor's house, some as high as twelve feet. All of this in the name of officer safety b/c a groggy Guerena responded to a door crashing with an AR in hand (safety on as revealed in the AAR). They claim they announced but watch the video and see if you can distinguish between a siren and a common car alarm.

Of course, in the end, they did nothing to violate policy and procedure and have all gone on their merry ways (do they have the press releases on standby with the same pathetic boilerplate?). Guerena's widow has sued the SD for 20 million and if she wins even a fraction of that, it will certainly not be paid by the shooters in blue but the taxpayers in Pima who subsidize their behavior. Mall cops have no immunity and they must be bonded and insured ergo their record of not maiming and killing the cattle in their charge.

For me, the officer safety business, no matter the statistics, turns into a license to kill. Nothing more and nothing less.

I have nothing against individual cops per se, I simply don't have a need for them...ever. No matter how base and unjust a political system whether Pol Pot or GWB or Mugabe or Stalin, they have no power without cops there to enforce bad laws.

Kivuli said:

I would like to see the numbers backing these assertations up, if you have them available.

Let us for the moment go with them being true. Most LEOs killed in the line of duty are from traffic crashes.

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Actually, your entire presumption on the "car crash fatalities of LEOs is incorrect. I never said that LEOs dies in auto-related incidents when they were DRIVING a car. Because they DON'T.

Most LEOs who are killed in vehicle-related incidents are killed while performing traffic stops--and they are killed from being struck by OTHER VEHICLES while they are standing on the shoulder, writing tickets, inspecting the suspect's vehicle, or asking questions, and in nearly every instance, it is when the suspect pulls off on the right side of the road.

Not behing the wheel--while standing oout on the side of highways during traffic stops.

I'd venture to say that ANY class of people who spend a lot of time standing around on the shoulder of highways probably have a high incidence of being kit by vehicles.

If LEOs woudl approach suspect's vehicles from the side opposite the passing traffic, this one simple tactical modification would save scores of LE lives every year. But intimidating suspects by strutting up to the driver side walking in the road has been determined to be much more important than TRUE officer safety.

IF cops want to be angry at someone for getting a LOT of cops killed in the line of duty they shouldn't blame people who legally carry, or people who resist arrest, or even people who speed. They should blame the "rocket scientists" who set the policy on techniques for effecting a traffic stop, because the current tactics used are insanely dangerous and mind-numbingly dismissive of the REAL hazards of traffic stops--APPROACHING TRAFFIC...

Dreamer said:

Actually, your entire presumption on the "car crash fatalities of LEOs is incorrect. I never said that LEOs dies in auto-related incidents when they were DRIVING a car. Because they DON'T.

Most LEOs who are killed in vehicle-related incidents are killed while performing traffic stops--and they are killed from being struck by OTHER VEHICLES while they are standing on the shoulder, writing tickets, inspecting the suspect's vehicle, or asking questions, and in nearly every instance, it is when the suspect pulls off on the right side of the road.

Not behing the wheel--while standing oout on the side of highways during traffic stops.

I'd venture to say that ANY class of people who spend a lot of time standing around on the shoulder of highways probably have a high incidence of being kit by vehicles.

If LEOs woudl approach suspect's vehicles from the side opposite the passing traffic, this one simple tactical modification would save scores of LE lives every year. But intimidating suspects by strutting up to the driver side walking in the road has been determined to be much more important than TRUE officer safety.

IF cops want to be angry at someone for getting a LOT of cops killed in the line of duty they shouldn't blame people who legally carry, or people who resist arrest, or even people who speed. They should blame the "rocket scientists" who set the policy on techniques for effecting a traffic stop, because the current tactics used are insanely dangerous and mind-numbingly dismissive of the REAL hazards of traffic stops--APPROACHING TRAFFIC...

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you are flat out 100% wrong.

do you just make stuff up out of thin air to support your officer safety theories?

because you are wrong

"Most LEOs who are killed in vehicle-related incidents are killed while performing traffic stops--and they are killed from being struck by OTHER VEHICLES while they are standing on the shoulder, writing tickets, inspecting the suspect's vehicle, or asking questions, and in nearly every instance, it is when the suspect pulls off on the right side of the road."

then you make "know it all" prescriptions about how to fix this problem (hint: we are taught both driver side and passenger side approaches... there are advantages and DISadvantages to both. i make my decision based on totality of the circ's and they vary with each individual traffic stop).

but you are WRONG. most officers who are killed in vehicle related incidents are NOT KILLED from being struck by other vehicles on a traffic stop while they are standing outside


YOU... ARE... WRONG

feel free to go to the site below and press each link if you doubt me. it is a falsehood that you claim about being struck by vehicles being how most vehicle related deaths occur, so feel free to verify your error by going to the below link and breaking it down. i've already done it partially for you.

i'll wait to see if you have the intellectual honesty to admit your error. i'll give you the benefit fo the doubt on that.


i've posted this link before. i'll do it again


www.odmp.org

instead of all this speculation, and "i think" and stuff like that here's some stats. you can go to the page to find out what they mean by each term (iow some who die in vehicle collisions are during pursuits, some get hit by drunk drivers, some are intentional, some aren't etc.)

2011

Aircraft accident: 1
Animal related: 1
Assault: 5
Automobile accident: 36
Drowned: 4
Duty related illness: 9
Explosion: 1
Gunfire: 67
Gunfire (Accidental): 5
Heart attack: 11
Heat exhaustion: 1
Motorcycle accident: 5
Stabbed: 2
Struck by vehicle: 4
Training accident: 1
Vehicle pursuit: 4
Vehicular assault: 12
Weather/Natural disaster: 1

Read more: http://www.odmp.org/search/year?year=2011#ixzz1oPiQDgRu

Total Line of Duty Deaths: 163
9/11 related illness: 2
Accidental: 1
Aircraft accident: 2
Assault: 5
Automobile accident: 43
Boating accident: 1
Drowned: 1
Fall: 2
Gunfire: 59
Gunfire (Accidental): 2
Heart attack: 14
Heat exhaustion: 1
Motorcycle accident: 5
Struck by vehicle: 7
Training accident: 1
Vehicle pursuit: 4
Vehicular assault: 13

Read more: http://www.odmp.org/search/year?year=2010#ixzz1oPikICjh

Total Line of Duty Deaths: 138
9/11 related illness: 11
Accidental: 1
Aircraft accident: 4
Assault: 1
Automobile accident: 34
Duty related illness: 4
Fall: 1
Gunfire: 47
Gunfire (Accidental): 2
Heart attack: 10
Motorcycle accident: 3
Struck by vehicle: 8
Vehicle pursuit: 3
Vehicular assault: 9

Read more: http://www.odmp.org/search/year?year=2009#ixzz1oPipWhkN


some other things to consider is that one of the reasons why SUBSTANTIALLY more officers aren't shot/shot and killed etc. is BECAUSE of good officer safety. iow, it is very true that statistically speaking our job is nowhere near as physically dangerous (death-wise) than many other job

that is BECAUSE of good officer safety, and also because of the vests we wear. i have over a dozen friends who have been shot. i've been shot at, but they missed. vests save a very high %age of those of us who get shot. that makes our job much much safer, as does good tactics and not letting the bad guys get the drop on us as often as we can

officer safety is based on a lot of good science, research, etc. and has improved substantially over the years. but even given that, if a cop is wearing a vest, most shots will not be fatal. obviously, head shots (my best friend was shot and killed by a BGD in the head and died), and femoral artery are two main weaknesses, but the torso and organs are largely protected.

i just find it ironic that people who think they know so much about officer safety don't even have their BASIC facts correct, like this ridiculous claim that most officer related deaths involving collisions are from being struck by a car while standing outside during a traffic stop

that's not even REMOTELY close to being true, as the stats prove

Actually "PALO", if you go through all the individual listings on "Officer Down", you will see that I am in fact correct.

Under the "Vehicular accident" category, over than half the fatalities are when the officer was struck by a non-involved vehicle while the officer was "serving civil papers"--which means he was writing a ticket during a traffic stop.

Also, if you discount the events where the officer lost control of his vehicle during a pursuit (funny, how "failure to maintain control" is an offense for a civilian, but seems to be some sort of badge of honor for LEOs...) those really shouldn't count either.

And if you discount the events where the officer "suffered a medical emergency" while driving and then crashed, that knocks out two or three every year.

And of course, the times where an officer is in his car, but stopped for a traffic stop, and his vehicle is hit by an uninvolved 3rd party actually supports my premise, and there are at least a half dozen or more of those per year.

And if we discount the incidents where the officer was somehow at fault (which isn't detailed in this website, but can often be found with a little Goggle-Fu on the original reports in the press), that knocks out another half-dozenor so per year.

And crashes that happen while the officer is off duty shouldn't count either...

The "vehicular assault" category doesn't count for my statement, because that is not an accident--that is someone intentionally TRYING to run down an LEO, so I'll give you that one...

The "struck by vehicle" category is strangely derived from incidents that are not traffic-stop-related, but some other random time where an officer is struck, like when crossing a street, or while performing some non-traffic-stop-related duty. I'm not sure I understand why some incidents where an officer is struck by a vehicle, it is "struck by a vehicle" and sometimes it falls under "vehicular accident".

But I stand by my statement, and the SPECIFIC facts bear it out if you look past the simple statistics...

Dreamer said:

Actually "PALO", if you go through all the individual listings on "Officer Down", you will see that I am in fact correct.

Under the "Vehicular accident" category, over than half the fatalities are when the officer was struck by a non-involved vehicle while the officer was "serving civil papers"--which means he was writing a ticket during a traffic stop.

Also, if you discount the events where the officer lost control of his vehicle during a pursuit (funny, how "failure to maintain control" is an offense for a civilian, but seems to be some sort of badge of honor for LEOs...) those really shouldn't count either.

And if you discount the events where the officer "suffered a medical emergency" while driving and then crashed, that knocks out two or three every year.

And if we discount the incidents where the officer was somehow at fault (which isn't detailed in this website, but can often be found with a little Goggle-Fu on the original reports in the press), that knocks out another half-dozenor so per year.

And crashes that happen while the officer is off duty shouldn't count either...

The "vehicular assault" category doesn't count for my statement, because that is not an accident--that is someone intentionally TRYING to run down an LEO, so I'll give you that one...

The "struck by vehicle" category is strangely derived from incidents that are not traffic-stop-related, but some other random time where an officer is struck, like when crossing a street, or while performing some non-traffic-stop-related duty. I'm not sure I understand why some incidents where an officer is struck by a vehicle, it is "struck by a vehicle" and sometimes it falls under "vehicular accident".

But I stand by my statement, and the SPECIFIC facts bear it out if you look past the simple statistics...

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nope.

you said : "Most LEOs who are killed in vehicle-related incidents are killed while performing traffic stops--and they are killed from being struck by OTHER VEHICLES while they are standing on the shoulder, writing tickets, inspecting the suspect's vehicle, or asking questions, and in nearly every instance, it is when the suspect pulls off on the right side of the road."

so, you are claiming that most officer death in vehicle related incidents (note vehicle related includes pursuits, normal driving, collisions with an officer in the car,etc.etc. ) and most means of course >50%

that those are officers standing outside their cars during traffic stops.

that's false. demonstrably so. if you are willing to say - PROVE IT. i will go through EACH vehicle related fatality for both 2011 and 2010 and show you that it is FALSE.

iow, a MINORITY of those killed in vehicle related deaths were due to being struck while outside the car on a traffic stop

but that will take some time because i will be very precise, so i want you to make it clear

are you STILL claiming that >50% of officer deaths in vehicle related incidents are where

1) THE OFFICER IS STANDING OUTSIDE THE CAR ON A TRAFFIC STOP
2) SOME VEHICLE EITHER STRIKES THE OFFICER STANDING OUTSIDE HIS CAR or SOME OTHER
OBJECT/VEHICLE WHICH PROPELS INTO THE OFFICER AND CAUSES HIS DEATH

if you persist in this claim i will prove you wrong for both 2011 and 2010. i read the FBI report every year on officer deaths (which are at the precinct, but i can do my research at www.odmp.org for this thread) and i know you are full of it.

however, i don't want to commit the time unless i get an acknowledgment that this is your claim AND that you ewill actually admit you are wrong when i show you that it's actually the case that LESS than a majority of officers killed in vehicle related incidents were stnading outside their car during a traffic stop

so, let me know. i'm more than willing to do it, with ample documentation, but i want your assurance that this is what you mean (no backpedaling on definitions) and that you will admit error when proven so

ill stand by

Before any of you get on your 'statistics soap box', I don't know why, nor do I care why some of the numbers don't add up. Lodge a complaint with the BLS.

http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshcfoi1.htm

State Government (likely includes local LEOs since Local Government does not list cops)
Police Protection:
2010 - 34 (21/10) transportation (footnote 3)/violent acts (footnote 4). Total - 21: 13 - highway incidents, 7 - worker hit by vehicle. Total 10: 8 - homicide by shooting
2009 - 11 (9/0) transportation/violent acts
2008 - 18 (11/6) transportation/violent acts
2007 - 21 (12/4) transportation/violent acts
2006 - 25 (16/8) transportation/violent acts
2005 - 26 (12/11) transportation/violent acts
2004 - 14 (10/3) transportation/violent acts
2003 - 23 (14/6) transportation/violent acts

Footnote 3: Includes highway, non-highway, air, water, rail fatalities, and fatalities resulting from being struck by a vehicle.
Footnote 4: Includes violence by persons, self-inflicted injury, and attacks by animals.

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It really does not matter what your viewpoint is. The state has sanctioned, with the court's blessing, the actions by LEOs to ensure their safety. Whether or not anyone else is safe is irrelevant, to the state. If, after the fact, you and LE part ways and you were not physically harmed, that is a mere artifact. Now, does every LEO consider the safety of the citizen they contact? I'll state yes. But, it is possible that a miniscule number of LEOs are not interested in the safety of those they come into contact with. In any event, it is extremely unlikely that you, the citizen, and your safety, is first and foremost in the LEOs mind.

LEO actions condoned by the state:

High speed pursuits. (The bystanding citizen bears the burden to get out of the way.)
The discharge of many firearms, simultaneously, without regard to where their fired rounds go.
The threat of severe bodily harm and even death for exercising your rights.

Only in the extreme case, where a LEO crosses too far into the realm of illegality, documented and disseminated to the public, where the LEOs union and his bureaucratic masters can not provide cover, then that LEO will be sacrificed. Every now and then, someone has to take one for the team.

So, we citizens must endure these unconstitutional intrusions for the safety of our 'protectors'. This is the price we pay for safety in our communities. If a little infringement of our rights happens along the way, so long as it is a 'brief' infringement, we have zero recourse. The road to the redress of wrongs inflicted upon the citizenry at the hands of armed state agents is closed due perpetual deconstruction.

The only way to restrain the overuse of the 'officer safety' canard is to elect state lawmakers who will erode qualified immunity protections from LEOs and make the LEO personally liable for his actions, when his actions result in unjustified and illegal harm.

LEOs are a class of 'citizen' placed above the citizenry. This status has been codified by local, state, federal governments....'LEOSA' anybody?

LEOs are special, they know it and take advantage of their special status....most folks would too if they had the same opportunity. When there is little to no meaningful consequence applied to a LEO for the actions of that LEO....'paid administrative leave' anybody?

And, who is responsible for the current state of affairs? It is We The People, that's who.

The citizenry must hold their elected officials accountable, at the ballot box, for the actions of their armed agents, only then will liberty be restored and the power of the state diminished.