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Unholstered my gun on an off-duty LEO.

self preservation

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I just want to say kudos to the OP for posting his story. There are a lot of good reasons to hold back posting such a story, not the least of which is fear of being berated and ridiculed by armchair quarterbacks. Happily that has not happened here. I think the feedback everyone has provided has been constructive. I think sharing our stories - even/especially ones where we're not sure whether or not we did the right thing - can be very helpful to others.

As I said in an earlier post, I hope to learn from this as well as I hope others learn from this. I expected some criticism, but that's ok. As long as we learn. I like to share my good experiences as well as my questionable ones. I have read similar "should I have done this" threads, and after hundreds and hundreds of criticisms I'll find that 1 comment that makes a world of sense to be and puts it all in prospective.
 

BrianB

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Apr 27, 2011
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I agree with the others, you overreacted. You must wait until you have your brains bashed out before you draw your weapon. Failing to wait for this is what got George Zimmerman in all that trouble. Its always better to wait until you have been severely beaten and unconscious before taking any action. That way you have a better chance of being found not guilty in court, assuming you survive.

Advocating illegal activity (2nd degree murder) is against forum rules, post is reported.

How was having my gun in the low and ready 2nd degree murder?

He wasn't directing that at you. The "2nd degree murder" reply was a tongue-in-cheek reply to the previous "[...][y]ou must wait until you have your brains bashed out[...]" post which was also tongue-in-cheek.

Since many missed the sarcasm, George Zimmerman actually did wait until he was having his head bashed against a concrete sidewalk before he drew his firearm and shot his attacker. Despite so-waiting, he was still charged with 2nd degree murder.
 

self preservation

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He wasn't directing that at you. The "2nd degree murder" reply was a tongue-in-cheek reply to the previous "[...][y]ou must wait until you have your brains bashed out[...]" post which was also tongue-in-cheek.

Since many missed the sarcasm, George Zimmerman actually did wait until he was having his head bashed against a concrete sidewalk before he drew his firearm and shot his attacker. Despite so-waiting, he was still charged with 2nd degree murder.

Oh. After re-reading I see that now. :lol: My apologies.
 

KYGlockster

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Ashland, KY
If everything happened exactly like you say then I would say you were lucky things ended up like they did. As you were already off of the sidewalk and facing towards the threat, while putting distance between the individual you believed to be a threat, it is MY OPINION that you should not have drawn your firearm. WHAT if it had been a child running and playing instead of an adult jogging? I would be willing to bet you would have ended up in the county jail with a possible Wanton Endangerment charge, or at the very least a Menacing charge had that been the case.

Unless you KNOW you are facing a threat, then it is MY OPINION that you should not draw your firearm. The firearm should only be drawn if you have identified a threat that is acting in such a way that warrants lethal force. You could have obtained a firing grip and left the gun in its holster until you were justified in drawing. If you were backing up and putting distance between you and the individual coming towards you then you would have had time to draw before they were on you. Also, keep in mind that most encounters where violence is threatened will be physical encounters, where fists will be needed and not firearms.

What is most important here, I believe, is your situational awareness which allowed this to happen. You need to be vigilant at all times when you are out of your castle. You should always scan your surroundings and you should always know who and what is around you at all times. Had you been scanning and staying cognizant of your surroundings this would have been a non-issue.

This is my opinion on the situation and of course I was not there, so therefore I can not say anything for certain. But at the very least we need to keep our firearm in its holster until we know we are justified in removing it. Again, thank goodness it was an adult and not a child that you drew your firearm on.
 

OC for ME

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The LEO does not appear, based on the absence of any repercussions at this point, to be too concerned about this event. He does live four housed down from the OP. He likely sees the OP relatively frequently and also likely knows him to be a OCer. If the LEO is not too concerned about the OP's actions, I am not too concerned. The OP did not shoot anyone, the OP looked first and ID'd his "target."

Would I have drawn, don't know.

None of us are 100% aware of our surroundings 100% of the time. We all "tune out" at some point for 'X' amount of time and focus things of immediate import that is not related to guarding against a threat.
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

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Seems to me the jogger knew very well why the OP had his sidearm out. And most likely would have done the same thing under the same circumstances.

Depending on the state defensive display can be legal and used properly a good idea.

The fire arm was not pointed just drawn there is a different.

Here's one a bit different but does involve a firearm out of its holster.

About 11pm I noticed that a vehicle had been doing multiple number of u turns, torn up shoulders. Then right in front of me a 15passinger van does one me causing me to slow down.

I Turned around activating my emergency lights. As I stopped the vehicle I notice 6 or people in the van and lots of movement as I approached I remove my side arm and held it down along my leg.

As I made contact with the driver I notice one of the passenger look down and notice my sidearm his eyes got really big

Turns out they were a bunch of off duty Chicago LEOs on vacation that were lost looking for the local strip joint

They knew fully well why I had my sidearm out but it still was a shock to them to be on the other end of a stop.

They said that in Chicago more then likely there would have been guns pointed at them.

Directions were given and every body went on there ways.

Being prudent is sometimes the best course of action.

Drawing, pointing, yelling to stay back or some thing else would have been to much. I don't believe ones needs to wait for the I have to shoot moment to draw if legal to do so where you live.
 
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OC for ME

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OT...

self preservation, maybe you should consider engaging the LEO about the "incident" and get his perspective of what he though occurred that night. He did seem to understand something about your reaction else he would have done something official by now. Then again he may not recall the incident, or does not care one way or the other, or he chalks it up to stuff happens, be careful next time. I don't know, just rambling on at this point it seems.

Though, letting sleeping dogs lie may be the prudent thing to do.

Just a few stray thoughts. If I catch one I'll let ya know.
 

self preservation

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I appreciate all of the feedback. I know this situation isn't a simple right vs. wrong or a simple win vs. lose scenario. Everyone has their own opinion of what should or should not have happened in this situation. I just wonder if the folks that are saying "you should have never even drawn your weapon" would say the same thing had I been whacked in the head with a ball bat, knocked unconscious and robbed? I have a feeling they would be saying "you should have been ready to fight off the attack" instead. But, I could be wrong. As far as running backwards.....doing so may have given me an extra second, but trying to outrun a man that is running forwards while you try to outrun him while running backwards.....well, you're not going to be able to put that much distance between you and them to feel comfortable enough to be able to think and think and think about what your next move will be. But every second counts so I did it anyways.

As far as SA, when my wife and I were first dating I always caught grief when we were out together. I was often accused of "not listening to her" or "looking at other women" (not saying that she wasn't right a few times:)) but the fact was I was just being aware of our surroundings. Now she finds herself constantly scanning her surroundings. Tells me that I've rubbed off on her. But as I have said in a prior post, as well as another poster saying the same thing, it is impossible to maintain absolute SA. Have you ever tried to sneak up on a cat? Nearly impossible to do. Why? Because obviously cats are not like humans. They do not think about taxes, if that knocking noise in their truck is just from bad gas, if they will get that promotion at work or if they turned off the stove before they left the house. Humans on the other hand are always thinking about something. In fact, I don't know for sure that a masked man isn't about to shoot me in the back of my head because I am to busy and to focused on writing this sentence that you are reading right now. (and you don't know if you are about to be shot in the back of the head because you are to busy reading this)

Could this have been a tragedy? Absolutely. The same way that is a tragedy when a teenager sneaks out of his parents house only to be mistaken for a home invader and is shot by his father when trying to sneak back in. All of us has been in a "defensive shooting" in our own minds. We have all thought about it. But we think about being at Wal-Mart and a mass shooter coming in and us stopping him before he can do to much damage. Or we think about that thug that is trying to pull us from our vehicle so that he may car jack us and we blow his ass away instead. Problem is, if any of us are ever faced with a real threat, it may not be quite as obvious as we have pictured in our minds all of these years.

Have you ever seen a video where a man pulls a weapon on a store clerk in an attempt to rob him, and there is an armed citizen in the store as well, but the armed citizen has that deer in the head light look for 10 seconds before reacting? I remember a video of a man pulling a knife on a clerk in an attempt to rob him. What made this video so funny was the would be robber didn't pay attention to the fact that an on duty, uniformed LEO was right behind him standing in line waiting to make a purchase himself. But even the LEO stood there for a few seconds trying to process what he was seeing before taking action. I'm sure both the armed citizen as well as the LEO were in the same mind set of "am I really seeing this, is this really happening?"

My point being is that we are not always, if ever, going to encounter a situation the way that we have played it out in our minds. Life throws those curve balls so we should expect them.
 

OC for ME

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It's called "paralyzed by stupid people syndrome." We have a tendency to become dumbstruck and freeze when we see the incredibly stupid people doing incredibly stupid things. I don't, I start laughing uncontrollably, which is known to have similar symptoms.
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

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northern wis
No matter how hard I worked at being aware there were and are days that just catch up to you. Carry a gun every day make a few hundred traffic stops a year went to several hundred domestics, serve a few hundred papers.


Do that for a few decades there are going to be times the old routine can catch up to you. I tried and trained very hard not let it happen but there were a few times after I was finished with what ever I was doing. I said if that person wanted me he could have had me.

Did not get enough sleep, worked an extra long shift, thinking about the kids bad grades, argued with the wife. had an unexpected bill come in. There can be many things that can come to mind that might just distract one when the SHTF.

One needs to use those times as a wake up call and work better at not be caught flat footed.

But also if the sixth sense kicks in I learned to pay attention to it, I believe many a time that I was not caught flat footed because of it.
 

Grapeshot

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--snipped--

One needs to use those times as a wake up call and work better at not be caught flat footed.

But also if the sixth sense kicks in I learned to pay attention to it, I believe many a time that I was not caught flat footed because of it.
That jump started an old nearly forgotten memory of years past. :lol:
 

Grapeshot

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quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor
--snipped--
One needs to use those times as a wake up call and work better at not be caught flat footed.

But also if the sixth sense kicks in I learned to pay attention to it, I believe many a time that I was not caught flat footed because of it.

That jump started an old nearly forgotten memory of years past. :lol:

Then share it. Let us learn.[/QUOTE

Nothing earth shaking.

"Flat foot" was an old, familiar but slightly derogatory term, for a beat cop - makes me think of the Keystone Cops. Truth be known - they got their flat feet from walking long hours on the concrete.
 

txtim49

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NEVER DRAW on a preseved threat

This incident happened a few months back but I have been waiting to make sure no legal action came from it before posting. I feel I'm in the clear so I'll share. In October I was changing the oil in my truck. When I went to put the new oil filter back on I discovered that the parts house had given me the wrong filter. Of course my truck has no oil in it at this point so I couldn't drive it. The parts house is about a 15 minute walk so I decided to walk there to get the correct filter. On the walk back home I suddenly heard someone running up on me fast. For whatever reason, in my mind a threat was coming up on me. I quickly left the sidewalk and stepped off into a yard and started to quickly walk backwards while I was unholstering my gun so as to put as much distance between me and whatever threat that I was about to encounter.

What I saw was a LEO from a neighboring county that was out for his evening jog. This guy lives 4 houses down from me. I know who/what he is due to seeing him come out and returning from work in his uniform, as well as seeing his cruiser parked in his driveway. I never did point my gun at him but rather kept it in the low and ready position. Needless to say his eyes got pretty wide (as did mine) and the only thing he said to me was "sh!t, sorry about that." To which I replied "sh!t, I'm sorry about that, too. You just alarmed me." He continued on with his jogging and I haven't talked to him since.

This incident bothers me for several reasons. For one, he was able to get up on me pretty quick before I realized it. Of course he was no harm and was just out for a run. But if he had been an attacker that was planning on stabbing me in the back or knocking my brains out with a club I would have had very little time to react (I'm sure this is true of most attacks). I wondered afterwards what if he have drawn his gun on me? I doubt he would have ordered me to drop mine since mine was already in my hand. Would I have dropped mine and gotten on the ground as soon as he reached for his, or would he have shot me before I had a chance to "surrender" to him? Worse yet, what if we didn't know of each other and had gotten into a gun fight with each other over a misunderstanding? It would had been real easy for him to see me draw a gun and think that I was there to attack him, only for him to draw a gun which would lead me to believe that he was there to attack me. I took his "I'm sorry about that" comment as he knew that he had startled me and he knew I meant no harm. And of course I knew of him and what he was really doing so that helped.

I wonder if I overreacted? Some folks say that if you think a threat is about to happen to go ahead and place your hand on your firearm but not to draw it until you know for sure that your life is in danger. Others say go ahead and get it in the low and ready position to shave off those few precious seconds that may be needed, as well as because a displayed firearm may make potential attackers think twice about going through with the attack. It was just a frighting experience all the way around, but hopefully a learning experience as well.

you must always make sure the threat is valid before you draw your weapon, there are so many legal matters to consider, could have went badly for both of you.
 

self preservation

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you must always make sure the threat is valid before you draw your weapon, there are so many legal matters to consider, could have went badly for both of you.

Welcome to OCDO. I would like to refer you to post #29 in response to your reply. I'll give you a run down of what it basically says. You say not to draw your weapon until you know the threat is valid. In an ideal world that would be true. But as I explained in post #29, that threat isn't always going to be so clear and obvious. I have a friend that is around 6'5 and weighs around 300 lbs. Myself, I'm 5'9 and 180 lbs. The big goofy bastard comes up behind me one day in Wal-Mart and wraps his forearm around my neck. Have you ever had that big friend that didn't know their own strength? Well, this is him and let me tell you, I thought he was going to pop my head off.

I'm in the middle of Wal-Mart, my wife or no one for that matter is screaming or panicking, so I assume that I'm not being attacked, but rather being messed with by someone that I know that doesn't mean any true harm toward me. Now if my dear old friend thinks it would be funny to hide beside my house and do this to me as I come out of my home for work early one morning, odds are we are going to have a tragedy on our hands because I'm not going to know its him and I'm going to try to stop him by whatever means necessary. Would this situation be bad for us both? Absolutely.

But I can't wait until I feel myself about to die from strangulation before I say to myself "this must not be Greg messing with me again. I must really be getting attacked." By this time it's to late. I don't draw my weapon unless I have a fear that I may need to use it. I don't point my weapon at anything that I don't intend or am not willing to shoot. And I will always try my very, very best to see the threat/target the best I can before ever pulling the trigger.
 

Citizen

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you must always make sure the threat is valid before you draw your weapon, there are so many legal matters to consider, could have went badly for both of you.

Phffffft. How many times do cops draw their weapons to low-ready when there is not yet a valid threat in order to be ready because the person they are confronting, while not yet an actual threat, if he decides to be a threat, can act faster than the cop can draw and fire. Having the gun out and at low-ready shaves off that precious 3/4 second or so difference that would be spent on drawing after the threat became valid.

Cops do it all the time.

Essentially, you're saying a person must act in a way that could get him killed.



Note: Readers will want to check the law in your state. Some states seem pretty quick to treat such action as brandishing/threatening when performed by someone who is not among the consecrated enforcer caste.
 
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Kid Curry

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A story from az.

Last Aug. in Flagstaff, AZ. I stopped at Safeway to get something, as I got out of my pick-em-up-truck I seen a man across the street stop a car with his bicycle, he opened the car door and grabbed the young women driver out of her seat, another man joined in to pull her out, I ran across the street and pulled my firearm, as I was raising it to confront the two men one pulled out a badge and said it was police business, I holstered my sidearm turned around and walked back across the street, after I left the store I drove that same truck back across the street to get some lunch, by then they had her in cuffs and there were two marked cars also, I stopped my truck rolled down the jump seat window to apologize, and explain how it looked to my, the lead LEO shook my hand and said it was nice to know some people do care enough to get involved, I don't know what happened to the young lady but all was OK between my and the cops.
 

Grapeshot

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Last Aug. in Flagstaff, AZ. I stopped at Safeway to get something, as I got out of my pick-em-up-truck I seen a man across the street stop a car with his bicycle, he opened the car door and grabbed the young women driver out of her seat, another man joined in to pull her out, I ran across the street and pulled my firearm, as I was raising it to confront the two men one pulled out a badge and said it was police business, I holstered my sidearm turned around and walked back across the street, after I left the store I drove that same truck back across the street to get some lunch, by then they had her in cuffs and there were two marked cars also, I stopped my truck rolled down the jump seat window to apologize, and explain how it looked to my, the lead LEO shook my hand and said it was nice to know some people do care enough to get involved, I don't know what happened to the young lady but all was OK between my and the cops.
Therein is a good example of why we should not jump in w/o knowing the facts. Some say that we shoid just be good observers - I'll reserve judgement on an individual basis.
 

Augustin

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"Flat foot" was an old, familiar but slightly derogatory term, for a beat cop - makes me think of the Keystone Cops. Truth be known - they got their flat feet from walking long hours on the concrete.

So you are a former LEO. I thought so.
 
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