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How many members are now going to remove lights from their guns ?

END_THE_FED

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2010
Messages
925
Location
Seattle, Washington, USA
I get your point...how does a cop shoot a citizen unintentionally in the situation described...well, it is the NYPD. No, that cop shot that dude cuz he wanted to shoot that guy. now, it is up to lawyers to work out the details.

There was nothing negligent about this incident...nothing. Did that cop plan to shoot that citizen, no. Yet he did shoot that citizen. Felony charges are warranted.

I am not sure what case you are referring to. In the incident that was the main subject of the article nobody was shot. The article mentioned another incident where someone may have been shot but it is not known for sure.
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

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Jul 12, 2011
Messages
3,428
Location
northern wis
I have trained hundreds of officers the major factor in many of these IMHO is lack of practice.

I wonder when the last time these officer actual drew and activated their weapon mounted lights.

With many officers the only time they use their equipment is when they need it and during training.

Why does this happen because officers are human as with most of the human race there are a few that really care their are more that kind of care, but the vast majority of people are just there.

I would say it is about 3 percent that are on the top end 7 percent that do more then just the job and 90 percent that just get along.

When we can solve this problem and only hire the top 3% every profession well be improved. In most professions the 90 percent ones get along just fine until something out of the norm happens.

For those of who are perfect and never have made a mistake your employer should be very glad to have you.
 
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END_THE_FED

Regular Member
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Ooops...sorry.

No worries.

And as I said in the other post you quoted if it had resulted in injury than the officer should be held to the same civil and criminal standard as any other individual.

Stated differently: badges and costumes shouldn't grant special rights.

So it seems we (mostly) agree here.
 
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END_THE_FED

Regular Member
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I have trained hundreds of officers the major factor in many of these IMHO is lack of practice............

As an instructor, I would like your opinion on a theory I have about what may have caused some of these:

The light switch in some of these incidents was a "button" located just under the trigger guard. If one's trigger finger is stretched along the slide and they depress said button with the middle finger everything is fine.

However, if the trigger finger is within the guard and resting on the trigger that is where the problem occurres. It is difficult for many people with their fingers in that configuration to depress a button with their middle finger without their index finger moving slightly also. Add adrenaline to the mix and it is even worse.

My theory is that the index finger was on the trigger, they used the middle finger to press the "button" and this caused their index finger to move also with just enough force to depress the trigger.

Just speculation and a theory but I am interested in your opinion.
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

Regular Member
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Messages
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northern wis
As an instructor, I would like your opinion on a theory I have about what may have caused some of these:

The light switch in some of these incidents was a "button" located just under the trigger guard. If one's trigger finger is stretched along the slide and they depress said button with the middle finger everything is fine.

However, if the trigger finger is within the guard and resting on the trigger that is where the problem occurres. It is difficult for many people with their fingers in that configuration to depress a button with their middle finger without their index finger moving slightly also. Add adrenaline to the mix and it is even worse.

My theory is that the index finger was on the trigger, they used the middle finger to press the "button" and this caused their index finger to move also with just enough force to depress the trigger.

Just speculation and a theory but I am interested in your opinion.

it is just speculation as one hardly ever gets to the bottom I would agree they most likely they had their finger on or very near the trigger then when something out of the ordinary happen they depressed the trigger. Then blamed I was trying to turn on the light. Pushing is a whole different motion then pulling.

Again I would say that a lack of practice with their equipment is the major cause if one would do a thousand or more draw and turn on the light, draw trip turn on the light, draw do what ever turn on the light motions.

One wouldn't be pulling the trigger instead. It is common for people who make mistakes to try and blame to some thing else for their own actions.

Modern fire arms go off because 99% of the time some one pulls the trigger. On Rare occasions defects in the gun , ammo or abuse can cause them to go off when unintended.

These seem to me I pulled the trigger causing them to discharge now I need a good reason/excuse on why I did that.

Again it boils down to when I draw the gun the operator needs the experience and practice to know if it is the light switch or the bang switch each and every time.

The middle finger theory is a good one violates more then one safety rule and more likely more then one policy also.
 
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hafnhaf

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2013
Messages
230
Location
Williamsburg, VA
no, i will not be removing the lights from my guns. however, i might just add guns to all my flashlights.

there's that d@mn remote. under the couch again! BANG!

saves me a trip to the safe...
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
"If you put a flashlight on a gun, the gun becomes something other than a gun," Maloney said. "A firearm should be a firearm. We were concerned in New York that if you put a flashlight on a gun, the police would start using the gun as a flashlight. When you do that, you point a loaded firearm in an area not intended for shooting."

Well, considering the aptitude and intelligence of the average cop these days, he's probably right on the money.

So... Basically... "We're hiring people with little to no self control and that can't follow orders or safety training, so we can't give them flashlights on their weapons because no matter how much training we give them or orders to follow basic firearm safety guidelines, they'd inevitably break safety rules, orders, and training to use their weapon mounted lights improperly..."

Seriously... If their officers don't have enough self control to not use a weapon mounted light improperly, the FIREARM is what should be taken off the light and taken away, not the light.

Well, there is that. :lol:

Frankly, I don't think officers should be carrying out traffic stops with firearms at the ready. It may be that, given the current state of affairs, an individual cop on an individual traffic stop is safer with a firearm than without, on the whole the policy of all cops being armed at all traffic stops has the precise opposite effect, making the cop's job significantly more dangerous (for him and the citizenry).
 
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WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
Simple, on police handguns use a grip switch. Officers should not use a light on a firearm for a flashlight. If they get caught it should be zero tolerance and termination.

We give adults with a badge more leeway than we give children in school with a pop tart shaped like a gun. Absolutely ridiculous.
 

davidmcbeth

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Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,167
Location
earth's crust
Simple, on police handguns use a grip switch. Officers should not use a light on a firearm for a flashlight. If they get caught it should be zero tolerance and termination.

We give adults with a badge more leeway than we give children in school with a pop tart shaped like a gun. Absolutely ridiculous.

School kids should unionize ! Really, getting rid of police unions would be a good thing.
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

Regular Member
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3,428
Location
northern wis
Simple, on police handguns use a grip switch. Officers should not use a light on a firearm for a flashlight. If they get caught it should be zero tolerance and termination.

We give adults with a badge more leeway than we give children in school with a pop tart shaped like a gun. Absolutely ridiculous.

I agree weapon mounted lights should not be used for illumination unless the situation requires that a weapon be deployed. In the dark when a weapon needs to be deployed a weapon mounted tack light can be a great advantage when used properly.

It is not the switch that is the problem it is the user.
 

Fallschirjmäger

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Aug 4, 2007
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Cumming, Georgia, USA
Were I as poorly practiced as most officers I've encountered, I would not equip my pistol with a flashlight either. Much too easy to confuse pulling a trigger back with pushing a finger forward or moving a rotary switch with either a forefinger or thumb.

Fortunately, I know push from pull.
 

Jeff d

Newbie
Joined
Dec 22, 2014
Messages
1
Location
LA
These guys who accidentally shoot people and blame the light are not activating the lights properly (among other things). They should be activated with the support hand thumb. That sounds odd but I can tell you it's very ergonimic on my G35 with streamlight. Most of the lights have a rotating, ambidextrous toggle with levers that sit on both sides of the trigger guard when the light is mounted (More of an up/down "swipe" than a "push"). I make a habit of never ever touching the light's switch with my trigger finger to avoid creating any bad muscle memory in my mind that could cause problems should I lose fine motor skills in an actual bad situation. The trigger finger is for trigger duty only and should never be employed for manipulating an accessory. I've considered just grinding off the right side of the little lever so it physically can't be activated with my right/dominant hand but then I'm a halfway decent left handed shooter too and would neuter my ability to failover to left handed and still manage the light with my support hand.

Also, when clearing a room in complete darkness these lights are bright enough that direct illlumination isn't necessary for preliminary threat identification. When moving through the room you can and should keep the weapon and light pointed down at a 45 degree or lower angle (as you would if there was no weapon mounted light) and still use the light to see what's going on. There's almost always enough light to evaluate most of the room without pointing the gun around at everything you'd like to evaluate as a threat. Make the preliminary evaluation with the indirect light, if a threat is detected only then fully illuminate the target, covering it with the weapon and re-evaluate before employing the trigger finger.

And lastly of you're in a pinch and don't have a separate light for general illumination, take the damn thing off the gun and it works perfectly as a standalone flashlight without pointing a gun at things. Many are quick release with just two tabs to squeeze while others just need to have a thumb screw loosened. When I'm on duty I always carry a stand alone flashlight and would never use a "gun as a flashlight".
 
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Logan 5

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Apr 16, 2012
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696
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Utah
:question: Why have your gun drawn and charged when you're entering a stairwell while not on pursuit? :question:
 

Fallschirjmäger

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Aug 4, 2007
Messages
3,823
Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
:question: Why have your gun drawn and charged when you're entering a stairwell while not on pursuit? :question:
"Charged"... you expect the police (or anyone else) to go around with unloaded guns?

It was drawn 'out of an overabundance of caution' and only because 'the safety of the citizenry demanded that he be ready at an instant to defend the public', not because he was a stupid, undisciplined, snozzberry.
 
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