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Suspects have long criminal records..

Dave Workman

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'The Suspects have long criminal records'

It is because of people like Pena and Williams, Mathews and Wilbanks, and Tacoma’s Olujimi Blankney that anti-gun politicians in state legislatures and in Congress have built careers going after the gun rights of honest citizens, claiming that their schemes would make it harder for such thugs to get guns. It's nonsense, of course, and all of these people are living proof.

http://www.examiner.com/x-4525-Seat...m7d27-The-suspects-have-long-criminal-records

Or try this:

http://tinyurl.com/29gjej3
 

amlevin

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'The Suspects have long criminal records'

It is because of people like Pena and Williams, Mathews and Wilbanks, and Tacoma’s Olujimi Blankney that anti-gun politicians in state legislatures and in Congress have built careers going after the gun rights of honest citizens, claiming that their schemes would make it harder for such thugs to get guns. It's nonsense, of course, and all of these people are living proof.

""While this column recently questioned why some people with past felony convictions lose their gun rights forever, it is also legitimate to question why violent repeat offenders don’t lose their freedom forever. People like Williams, Pena and Blankney should not be on the street. Why must it take an outrageous crime to clarify that for some people? ""

It is my opinion that far too many people "drank the liberal Kool-Aid" and feel that "we have too many people in prison" and "everyone deserves a second chance".

Just when does the second chance start in these people's minds? After 3,4,6, or more "first chances"?
I like Sheriff Arpaio's approach. He says "you send 'em and I'll Jail 'em. Nowhere in the law does it say I have to keep them in luxury" thus his "tent city", bologna sandwiches, and pink underwear for those that don't behave.
 

Beretta92FSLady

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The problem with having a blanket ban on felons owning firearms is that not all felons are violent criminals. I believe that non-violent felons should be allowed to purchase and own firearms; that is, after they have paid their dept to society.
 

Tawnos

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""While this column recently questioned why some people with past felony convictions lose their gun rights forever, it is also legitimate to question why violent repeat offenders don’t lose their freedom forever. People like Williams, Pena and Blankney should not be on the street. Why must it take an outrageous crime to clarify that for some people? ""

It is my opinion that far too many people "drank the liberal Kool-Aid" and feel that "we have too many people in prison" and "everyone deserves a second chance".

Just when does the second chance start in these people's minds? After 3,4,6, or more "first chances"?
I like Sheriff Arpaio's approach. He says "you send 'em and I'll Jail 'em. Nowhere in the law does it say I have to keep them in luxury" thus his "tent city", bologna sandwiches, and pink underwear for those that don't behave.

And yet, he's managed to have an uptick in violent crime while the rest of AZ's crime has decreased, has brought more suits against his city and position than any other person I know, is suspected of misappropriating funds, and has violated basic human decency on more than one condition (e.g. requiring an illegal or otherwise undocumented immigrant give birth while handcuffed in a jail cell). Not exactly something we should aspire to, I think we can be better than that.
 

Metalhead47

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And yet, he's managed to have an uptick in violent crime while the rest of AZ's crime has decreased, has brought more suits against his city and position than any other person I know, is suspected of misappropriating funds, and has violated basic human decency on more than one condition (e.g. requiring an illegal or otherwise undocumented immigrant give birth while handcuffed in a jail cell). Not exactly something we should aspire to, I think we can be better than that.

The mere fact that good ol' Sheriff Joe excels so well at ******* off the left means he's OK in my book. Voted for him every chance I got when I lived down there, I'd say I wish we could import him here but I honestly think AZ needs him more right now.

Oh and illegal aliens have no rights the minute they cross the border far as I'm concerned :p
 

Tawnos

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The mere fact that good ol' Sheriff Joe excels so well at ******* off the left means he's OK in my book. Voted for him every chance I got when I lived down there, I'd say I wish we could import him here but I honestly think AZ needs him more right now.

Oh and illegal aliens have no rights the minute they cross the border far as I'm concerned :p

As far as you're concerned, then, you're picking and choosing what parts of the Constitution just as much as any anti-gunner does.
 

Aryk45XD

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Hmmm....

Repeat offenders is a spit in the face of our judicial system, prison, rehabilitation programs, and basic way of dealing with these sic people.
Some felonies should not even be felonies. Non-violent, sane individuals should be given their rights back after their debt, which certainly includes probation.

Illegals should fear coming here illegally and staying that way. They should also be treated as a human while in our custody. If caught, you still have to think about what kind of life they ran away from and are going back to indefinitely.

Like it or not, I don't care.

ETA: Most everyone's blood on this board carries the same that came here illegally or with no other cause than to destroy other humans lives by making their own here.
 
Last edited:

amlevin

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And yet, he's managed to have an uptick in violent crime while the rest of AZ's crime has decreased, has brought more suits against his city and position than any other person I know, is suspected of misappropriating funds, and has violated basic human decency on more than one condition (e.g. requiring an illegal or otherwise undocumented immigrant give birth while handcuffed in a jail cell). Not exactly something we should aspire to, I think we can be better than that.

Ever lived or worked in AZ? Do you know which county "Sheriff Joe" is in? Same one as Phoenix and yes, crime is on the rise. Drug Crime as well as Gang Crime, most of which is brough about by our newly arrived illegals.

Whenever someone like the Sheriff takes a position contrary to the Liberal Elitists he's bound to attract lawsuits. He will be accused of just about everything imaginable. That's an interesting thing about our legal system. ANYONE can bring a legal action. Groups and people with money can bring lots of lawsuits. That seems to be the trend over the last 30 years or so if you don't like something. Can't get your way, just tie everyone up with lawsuits. From Spotted Owls to "Law and Order" Sheriff's, can't get your way, just file suit.

Funny thing about "Sheriff Joe", has been re-elected regularly, has wide public support (unless you don't have a green card or live a life of crime), and is doing what a majority of people in this country wish THEIR sheriff had the "nuggets" to do.

I developed property in AZ for a 6 year period of time. Crime in the Maricopa County area was rampant. I would finish a building, install equipment, and within 48 hours have someone break in and steal what they could. As an example, the theives would climb a 12 foot cinder block wall, disassemble an air compressor, hoist the individual components over the wall and disappear. Police took reports but offered that the equipment was "probably in Mexico before I discovered the theft". Finally had to weld bolts and weave alarm wire into the equipment to stop the thefts (after 6 were lost). That's just a snapshot of crime in Maricopa County.

What were the latest estimates of "Illegals" in AZ? Just go to Phoenix/Maricopa County and take a look. They seem own a large portion of the city/county.

I stand by my statement that I like Sheriff Joes approach. Too bad that the liberal appologists don't.
 

me812

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The problem with having a blanket ban on felons owning firearms is that not all felons are violent criminals.

That's very true. In fact, Mahatma Gandhi was a convicted felon. He did two years in prison for sedition.
 

Tawnos

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Oh and illegal aliens have no rights the minute they cross the border far as I'm concerned

...

No, I'm not. Immigrants assimilate. Aliens take over. This is not immigration, it is a hostile foreign invasion and should be treated as such.

Yes, you're picking and choosing, but take it up with Madison (note, this is pre-14th amendment, even. 14th amendment made the fact that immigrants of all kinds had rights):

Madison said:
If aliens had no rights under the Constitution, they might not only be banished, but even capitally punished, without a jury or the other incidents to a fair trial. But so far has a contrary principle been carried, in every part of the United States, that except on charges of treason, an alien has, besides all the common privileges, the special one of being tried by a jury, of which one-half may be also aliens.
 

amlevin

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14th amendment made the fact that immigrants of all kinds had rights):

I think that everyone would agree that they have rights. Some within our society would like them to have a set of "super" rights, among them the right to enter this country illegally, commit crimes while here, then be immune from punishment (they often call it racism or persecution). Those I am referring to also want these illegal immigrants to be able to stay in this country, receiving all forms of free services and benefits that are often unavailable to the rest of us regardless of financial circumstance.

I'm, all in favor of immigrants having rights. Among them are the right to enter this country legally. To stay in this country as law abiding citizens enjoying life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
I believe that all immigrants have the right to due process. The illegal ones, or those who prefer crime to lawful activity should have the right to be arrested, receive fair treatment while in custody, receive a fair trial, and if convicted then they should have the right to be returned to the country from which they came.

I DO NOT believe that immigrants should have the right to enter the country illegally with no intention of making this their country their permanent residence. These people are not "immigrants", they are visitors and as such should go home at the end of their "visit". All too many of these illegals do not come here to seek a better life here, they come here to work and send money home so they can have a better life THERE.

Rights? Sure. Give them all the rights guaranteed under the Constitution. Just as long as they are also given the right to have the full weight of the law placed on their heads if they F***-up!

So far, I don't see that happening and I think that is why so many would like them to be stripped of ALL rights in this country.
 

Tawnos

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I think that everyone would agree that they have rights.


...

Rights? Sure. Give them all the rights guaranteed under the Constitution. Just as long as they are also given the right to have the full weight of the law placed on their heads if they F***-up!

So far, I don't see that happening and I think that is why so many would like them to be stripped of ALL rights in this country.

Your first and last sentences contradict, and your first contradicts what has already been expressed within this thread. I grew up in the Southern California desert, on the way to Phoenix. I think we had a higher immigrant population (Indio/La Quinta/Palm Desert area) ;).

Anyway, I don't have time to do this again, nor to argue with someone who is attacking a strawman, rather than with nuance.
 

Metalhead47

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Yes, you're picking and choosing, but take it up with Madison (note, this is pre-14th amendment, even. 14th amendment made the fact that immigrants of all kinds had rights):

Immigrants, man. Immigrants emigrate (that is, show up legaly), immigrants assimilate. Let me break it down for you:

What would you do in this situation? Say I came barging into your home (since after all, you did leave the door unlocked) and said, "Ok, from now on you're going to do things my way. You will only speak to me in my language. You will take me to your hospital, and my children to your school (who will only be taught in my language, of course). I will contribute nothing to you financially, however, I will scrub the toilets & vacuum the couch cushions (since you won't do these jobs). Any change I find I will send back to my real home. Incidentally, my cousin, who happens to be a violent thug, will run a moonshine hose through some out-of-the-way corner of your home. You're not using that part anyway. Just be sure to keep your own kids away, violent thug, remember. And once my friends find out how good I have it, they'll all want to move in too. You won't care, we'll all live in the same broom closet. Now if anyone asks, I will be sure to tell them that I am not a member of your household! My real home is where I came from, and I'd rather be there, I'm just using you for my own personal benefit. If you dare criticize me I'll scream to your neighbors that you're a big meanie-head.

Now, what would you do? You'd tell me to get the F--- out of course, then call the police. If the police wouldn't do their jobs, you'd remove me yourself, be force if necessary, and you would have every right to. I, however, would have no rights, I left them at the door when I entered your home without your permission.
 

Tawnos

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Immigrants, man. Immigrants emigrate (that is, show up legaly), immigrants assimilate. Let me break it down for you:

What would you do in this situation? Say I came barging into your home (since after all, you did leave the door unlocked) and said, "Ok, from now on you're going to do things my way. You will only speak to me in my language. You will take me to your hospital, and my children to your school (who will only be taught in my language, of course). I will contribute nothing to you financially, however, I will scrub the toilets & vacuum the couch cushions (since you won't do these jobs). Any change I find I will send back to my real home. Incidentally, my cousin, who happens to be a violent thug, will run a moonshine hose through some out-of-the-way corner of your home. You're not using that part anyway. Just be sure to keep your own kids away, violent thug, remember. And once my friends find out how good I have it, they'll all want to move in too. You won't care, we'll all live in the same broom closet. Now if anyone asks, I will be sure to tell them that I am not a member of your household! My real home is where I came from, and I'd rather be there, I'm just using you for my own personal benefit. If you dare criticize me I'll scream to your neighbors that you're a big meanie-head.

Now, what would you do? You'd tell me to get the F--- out of course, then call the police. If the police wouldn't do their jobs, you'd remove me yourself, be force if necessary, and you would have every right to. I, however, would have no rights, I left them at the door when I entered your home without your permission.

Are you incapable of reading? Madison said nothing about immigrants. He said "aliens." Maybe you should do a refresher course on English ;). I'm not going to even try to address your racist characterization and analogy, it's not worth the effort.

Federal judge just agreed with me and struck down most of the bill.

Look, I'm not saying that I think illegal immigration is awesome and should be encouraged. What I am saying, though, is that there should be a viable path for legal immigration for all who want to come to America to work. What incentive does the illegal immigrant have to do anything but make as much as they can and go home, when they know they can't bring their family here, when they see how hostile people like you treat them. You act like they're sub-human, and then claim that the ideas you support for the running of our country, those in the Constitution, are somehow not applicable to them. In that refresher English course, perhaps you should also look at the meaning of "any person", as in "nor shall any State deprive any person..."
 

devildoc5

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Are you incapable of reading? Madison said nothing about immigrants. He said "aliens." Maybe you should do a refresher course on English ;). I'm not going to even try to address your racist characterization and analogy, it's not worth the effort.

Federal judge just agreed with me and struck down most of the bill.

Look, I'm not saying that I think illegal immigration is awesome and should be encouraged. What I am saying, though, is that there should be a viable path for legal immigration for all who want to come to America to work. What incentive does the illegal immigrant have to do anything but make as much as they can and go home, when they know they can't bring their family here, when they see how hostile people like you treat them. You act like they're sub-human, and then claim that the ideas you support for the running of our country, those in the Constitution, are somehow not applicable to them. In that refresher English course, perhaps you should also look at the meaning of "any person", as in "nor shall any State deprive any person..."


You will notice I highlighted some of your last post.

There is this wonderful thing called a Work visa, also the migrant farmer visa, dont forget the student visa the regular visa, the political refugee visa and the refugee visa. There is also the regular visitors (comonly known as vacation) visa where once they are here they can APPLY for citizenship.....

Just how many "legitimate" ways does one need?

The problem is you are an idealist and think if we all relax a little everything will be ok and everyone will love and hug and kiss and coddle us. Unfortunately this is the real world were there is such a thing as "propensity of criminal behavior" Whether you believe in psychology or not there are NUMEROUS studies that have shown if someone commits one crime (even stealing a candy bar) the are at a GREATER risk to commit a crime then someone who hasnt committed crimes before.

Not saying that all illegals are criminals, but they have the PROPENSITY, just as a thief does.

How many illegal immigrants pay taxes? Child support? Drive legally? Own guns LEGALLY?

The problem with allowing illegal actions to occur is that it is kinda like raising a kid. Kid does something wrong and you dont punish them pretty soon they are gonna push and see what they can get away with. How far are we gonna allow these people who step foot on american soil as criminals (for violating immigration laws) to continue to test what we will allow them to do in our own country that they in no way shape or form support?

I believe that covers most of my major beliefs and issues with the previous post....
 

Tawnos

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You will notice I highlighted some of your last post.

There is this wonderful thing called a Work visa, also the migrant farmer visa, dont forget the student visa the regular visa, the political refugee visa and the refugee visa. There is also the regular visitors (comonly known as vacation) visa where once they are here they can APPLY for citizenship.....

Just how many "legitimate" ways does one need?

First, all of those are non-immigrant visas. In the part you highlighted, I said, specifically, "viable path for legal immigration."

Second, the visas are a nightmare, and they are largely unavailable for migrant workers. For example, the TN status visas require collegiate education, require a payment, waiting period, certified documentation for labor, and proof of participation in a recognized area. The refugee/political refugee visas are not available to those from Mexico. Student visas aren't available for non students. The J-1 visa is unavailable for migratory workers, so that leaves the H2-A/B. Start looking into the requirements to get one of those, they're surprisingly difficult for what the jobs pay. And, again, it does *nothing* to address immigration.

The problem is you are an idealist and think if we all relax a little everything will be ok and everyone will love and hug and kiss and coddle us. Unfortunately this is the real world were there is such a thing as "propensity of criminal behavior" Whether you believe in psychology or not there are NUMEROUS studies that have shown if someone commits one crime (even stealing a candy bar) the are at a GREATER risk to commit a crime then someone who hasnt committed crimes before.
Before you go calling me an idealist, you should try to get to know my position a bit better. You're actually the first person to call me an idealist, so I'll take it as a complement, maybe I'm learning not to be so pessimistic/realist/objectivist. As for your propensity of criminal behavior... first of all, border jumping is breaking civil law, not criminal. That was part of Arizona's SB1070 problem.

Not saying that all illegals are criminals, but they have the PROPENSITY, just as a thief does.
By this argument, I could say we all have the propensity for rape if we've ever gone over the speed limit, not refilled a meter on time while parking, drank too much while out in public, or done any of a number of actions that are designated as "illegal".

How many illegal immigrants pay taxes? Child support? Drive legally? Own guns LEGALLY?
Numbers you could try to provide, but I'll address the last one - I consider owning a firearm as a means of self-defense a fundamental human right. Other countries may strip those who visit those places of that right through threat of force, but it does not change my view that all free people have that right, especially those people who are in our country, where we recognize that right as a fundamental limitation upon the government's banning ability.

The problem with allowing illegal actions to occur is that it is kinda like raising a kid. Kid does something wrong and you dont punish them pretty soon they are gonna push and see what they can get away with. How far are we gonna allow these people who step foot on american soil as criminals (for violating immigration laws) to continue to test what we will allow them to do in our own country that they in no way shape or form support?

I believe that covers most of my major beliefs and issues with the previous post....
Again, current USC 8 SS 1325 makes it a civil violation, not a criminal one. How long are we going to keep trying the same stupid thing over and over and over and over with regards to immigration policy before realizing there is a better way, one where we let those who want to be here come here on the condition they do so to join the country as citizens?
 
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