DNR "Administrative Rule" Re: Carry at gun ranges

Tucker6900 · Sep 4, 2012

Bronson said:
My guess is that the DNR officer misunderstood the memo. Reading comprehension seems to be a vanishing skill.

Bronson

Well, when they decline to hire smart people, that tends to happen....

http://nyletterpress.wordpress.com/2008/02/29/police-reject-candidate-for-being-too-intelligent/

Xanaseyr · Sep 4, 2012

324.504:

(6) The department shall not promulgate or enforce a rule that prohibits an individual who is licensed or exempt from licensure under 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.421 to 28.435, from carrying a pistol in compliance with that act, whether concealed or otherwise, on property under the control of the department.

A license to purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol is 28.422, no?
28.422 is between 28.421 and 28.435, no?

Handling "Michigan pistols" differently is ridiculous. We have one definition of "pistol" for the purpose of that act, and no clear line between "Michigan pistols" and whatever other sort of pistols one might have in Michigan.
Michigan pistols, holster requirements, etc. make no difference. If you're in compliance with (1927 PA 372, MCL 28.421 to 28.435), they do not have the authority to make or enforce a rule that says otherwise.

Any detainment or harassment for lawful carry of a (Michigan or not) pistol downrange is no different from detainment or harassment for lawful carry of a (Michigan or not) pistol on a sidewalk.

TheQ · Sep 4, 2012

Tucker6900 said:
Therefore, if one were ticketed for carrying at the range, a preemption argument, IMHO, would suffice.

except MCL 123.1101 makes no mention of state agencies.

State Agencies get their power from enabling statutes. You could ask them where in that statute they get that power....but MCL 123.1102 wouldn't apply.

Michigander · Sep 4, 2012

I don't personally care what the rules are, I don't suggest using DNR run ranges. Their ****** baggery is far too out of line for me to see any sense in it. Much better to find a spot on state land and blast away.

TheQ · Sep 4, 2012

TheQ said:
except MCL 123.1101 makes no mention of state agencies.

State Agencies get their power from enabling statutes. You could ask them where in that statute they get that power....but MCL 123.1102 wouldn't apply.

A better argument could be made under MCL 324.504

xmanhockey7 · Sep 4, 2012

My understand has been that the DNR cannot prevent someone from what would otherwise be lawful carry. So even if you have no CPL if you OC they cannot prevent you from doing so.

TheQ · Sep 4, 2012

xmanhockey7 said:
My understand has been that the DNR cannot prevent someone from what would otherwise be lawful carry. So even if you have no CPL if you OC they cannot prevent you from doing so.

Oh, they always CAN. The questions are:

1. What will they do if you carry anyway.
2. What will you do when they stop/ticket you?

TheQ · Sep 4, 2012

TheQ said:
A better argument could be made under MCL 324.504

It is worth noting that the statute that prevents them from restricting you if you have no CPL (MCL 28.422) is the same statute that everyone is hell-bent on repealing.

Yet another reason why we stayed neutral. The bill does harm to non-CPL holders.

stainless1911 · Sep 4, 2012

TheQ said:
except MCL 123.1101 makes no mention of state agencies.

State Agencies get their power from enabling statutes. You could ask them where in that statute they get that power....but MCL 123.1102 wouldn't apply.

Thats what I was saying earlier. Despite preemption, I believe Xanaseyr has the answer below.

Xanaseyr said:
324.504:

A license to purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol is 28.422, no?
28.422 is between 28.421 and 28.435, no?

Handling "Michigan pistols" differently is ridiculous. We have one definition of "pistol" for the purpose of that act, and no clear line between "Michigan pistols" and whatever other sort of pistols one might have in Michigan.
Michigan pistols, holster requirements, etc. make no difference. If you're in compliance with (1927 PA 372, MCL 28.421 to 28.435), they do not have the authority to make or enforce a rule that says otherwise.

Any detainment or harassment for lawful carry of a (Michigan or not) pistol downrange is no different from detainment or harassment for lawful carry of a (Michigan or not) pistol on a sidewalk.

Tucker6900 · Sep 5, 2012

TheQ said:
except MCL 123.1101 makes no mention of state agencies.

State Agencies get their power from enabling statutes. You could ask them where in that statute they get that power....but MCL 123.1102 wouldn't apply.

But couldnt a state agency been seen as a local unit of government? I understand they are operated by the state, so you are probably right.

TheQ · Sep 5, 2012

Tucker6900 said:
But couldnt a state agency been seen as a local unit of government? I understand they are operated by the state, so you are probably right.

I think you just answered your own question. Congrats, you get a cookie

stainless1911 · Sep 5, 2012

TheQ said:
I think you just answered your own question. Congrats, you get a cookie

I hope you brought enough for everyone. *taps toe*

Tucker6900 · Sep 5, 2012

TheQ said:
I think you just answered your own question. Congrats, you get a cookie

I did. It was one of those posts where I hit submit and went "duh".

Double chocolate chip please.

Gort · Sep 9, 2012

DanM said:
I OC'd a holstered handgun today at Pontiac Lake Shooting Range, shooting some slug ammo from my shotgun. The range officer (RO) informed me that an "administrative rule" on concealed/open carry at DNR ranges had recently come out, and is as follows:

If a person shows the range officer that they have a CPL, they may carry concealed and/or openly at the range, including downrange when placing targets.

A person not having a CPL (or, I guess, not having notified the RO that they have a CPL), may carry openly except downrange. Before going downrange, their firearm must be at their station, unloaded and action open.

The RO said he did not have a hard copy of this rule, but when he got it he would post it at the bulletin board at the tower.

Anyone else heard of this? It seems to unnecessarily infringe on non-CPL's rights, and increase the chance of an unintended discharge.

Was at DNR Island Lake Shooting Range today, talked to one range officer he said nothing about my holstered gun, 30 minutes waiting for a spot to shoot, another range officer said you cannot open carry your gun on this range. Good day shooting anyway.
Hope they get this Administrative Rule Posted.

stainless1911 · Sep 9, 2012

Gort said:
another range officer said you cannot open carry your gun on this range. .

Did you ask him for a cite?

Gort · Sep 9, 2012

stainless1911 said:
Did you ask him for a cite?

No I did not, I was waiting for a Lane to shoot, and that is what i did.

davidmcbeth · Sep 10, 2012

Raggs said:
You can DEMAND respect for your rights, and they can DEMAND you leave, Or you can get a CPL

Or take the slide and carry that ... odd, guy is worried about someone using HIS gun when 20 other people could have their guns available too ...

I usually leave my guns and get my targets ... I guess anyone could use my own gun and shoot me when I am down range ... at least I'll know I sighted in the gun correctly and thats what is most important.

Venator · Sep 11, 2012

The DNR supervisor for the ranges is out of the office until Oct. 1st. So I won't get a response from him until after that date.

Venator · Sep 11, 2012

Well the supervisor's supervisor contacted Mike and I with this:

We appreciate your meeting and discussing these issues with us as we attempt to clarify what is allowed at DNR shooting ranges. The DNR’s position in relation to ‘open carry’ and carrying of firearms is that our staff will be following the provisions of Administration Rule R 299.673, and the provisions relating to PA 130 of 2004.

A person licensed for CPL is exempt from the shooting range rules. Any other persons carrying a firearm will be subject to Administration Rule R 299.673, which states: R 299.673 Use of firearms on designated shooting ranges; prohibited acts. Rule 3. On a designated shooting range, a person shall not do any of the following: (a) Possess a loaded firearm, except at established shooting stations on the firing line, unless a person is licensed in accordance with 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422.

So anyone at a DNR shooting range cannot posses a loaded firearm on a designated shooting range except at the firing line, unless the person has a CPL. Our staff will also adhere to the range safety guidelines which require all firearms to be unloaded and cased until they are at the range firing line, again unless a person has a CPL.

Our staff has reviewed the matter with our Law Enforcement Division and Office of Legal Services and gone back and reviewed PA 130 of 2004 and the analysis. Clearly, statute tells us we cannot promulgate or enforce a rule that prohibits a CPL holder from carrying, however, on the designated shooting range premises, the rule does apply to those individuals that wish to open carry.

Thanks again for your time and assistance as we continue to review and clarify these issues.

Dennis Fox
Recruitment and Retention Section ManagerMichigan
Department of Natural Resources
Stevens T. Mason Building
PO Box 30028Lansing,
MI 48909-7528517
373-6714 phone 517-373-1547 fax
foxd3@michigan.gov - email

Since you have to meet some of the criteria in 28.422 to possess and carry a handgun my opinion is that a non-CPL holder would be exempt from the range rules. I have expressed that to Mr. Fox. I am not holding my breath.

Xanaseyr · Sep 11, 2012

A person licensed for CPL is exempt from the shooting range rules. Any other persons carrying a firearm will be subject to Administration Rule R 299.673, which states: R 299.673 Use of firearms on designated shooting ranges; prohibited acts. Rule 3. On a designated shooting range, a person shall not do any of the following: (a) Possess a loaded firearm, except at established shooting stations on the firing line, unless a person is licensed in accordance with 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422.

So anyone at a DNR shooting range cannot posses a loaded firearm on a designated shooting range except at the firing line, unless the person has a CPL. Our staff will also adhere to the range safety guidelines which require all firearms to be unloaded and cased until they are at the range firing line, again unless a person has a CPL.

Sorry, run that by me again? Even ignoring that they need to pay attention to more than just 28.422, 28.422 is the big one we're worried about.

28.422 License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol; issuance; qualifications; applications; sale of pistol; exemptions; nonresidents; basic pistol safety brochure; forging application; implementation during business hours.

DNR "Administrative Rule" Re: Carry at gun ranges

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