Ok .. I've got a GOOD one for ya'll

I was planning on attending The Minnesota Weapons Collectors Association's gun show tomorrow at the State Fair complex in St. Paul MN. Taking into consideration that this show is not held in the best of neighborhoods I was planning on carrying my G19 open to the show.

Just for my own curiosity I had to check the website to see if guns were banned from the show.

I found this letter listed as "An open letter to visitors to the MWCA website"

After reading the letter and seeing that they comply with state law I let out a sigh of relief after realizing I would not have to store my firearm in my truck in a less than desirable neighborhood.

Well, that relief, it did not last very long. I then found this statement on the front page of the website " Important! Article VII Show Rules of Conduct, Section 5: Any item brought to a meeting (show) which, in the opinion of a majority of the Board Members present, is detrimental to the safety or best interest of this corporation will be barred. No loaded firearms except for authorized security personnel!"

All I can say is WHISKEY FOXTROT TANGO

They state that they comply with state and federal law on one page, and then reverse that or twist it to what suits them on the next.

This has to be the first website I have ever come across with NO contact email address and I have to assume this is why.

Sad day when you cant even go to a collectors gun show, WITH a permit to carry, in a HORRIBLE neighborhood, and not have to worry about leaving your firearm in the car where it could be potentially stolen.

I can not stop shaking my head over this nonsense.

Reread the letter. In it they say that all firearm actions will be secure. That usually means a zip-tie that prevents operation of the firearm.

I did see that .. but then they go one to say they follow state law. My permit to carry affords me the right to carry on ALL state owned land and buildings with the exemptions of court houses and jails. The state fair is owned by the MN Department of AG - A state agency, making it state land. Therefore I should be able to carry at of all places a gun show in the HOOD.

--" # All firearm actions are secured, whether owned by exhibitors or the public.
# All local, state and federal laws are strictly followed. "

Contradiction ?

I'm sure you can carry to the door, unload, have them check/secure weapon, and go in and look around. When you exit the doors, load it. Thats what I do at our local gun shows. They got a guy that zip ties them. Or you can say you never saw the web site.

rotty said:

I did see that .. but then they go one to say they follow state law. My permit to carry affords me the right to carry on ALL state owned land and buildings with the exemptions of court houses and jails. The state fair is owned by the MN Department of AG - A state agency, making it state land. Therefore I should be able to carry at of all places a gun show in the HOOD.

--" # All firearm actions are secured, whether owned by exhibitors or the public.
# All local, state and federal laws are strictly followed. "

Contradiction ?

Click to expand...

No contradiction. The show owners are, at least during the show, the tenants of the building, exercising the full right to enjoy their property, including the right to prohibit loaded carry. That's getting to be the norm for gun shows. Insurance companies are refusing to insure shows that don't prohibit loaded carry.

It's stupid, but it's Liberty in action.

Big Boy rules apply.

Concealed is CONCEALED....

what they don't know.....

anyway in the described context.... IT IS LEGAL FOR ME TO DO THIS IN MY STATE OF RESIDENCE until they ask me to leave then if I refuse I risk a trespassing charge, NOT A WEAPONS VIOLATION!

Welcome to Unloaded Open Carry.

So it comes down to the law in Minnesota.

What are your priorities? Fun or safety? An acquaintance of mine prioritized fun over safety by going to NYC and was violently mugged.

I prefer to NOT patronize establishments that needlessly disarm me. There are other sources for firearms...I'd avoid that place.

JoeSparky said:

Concealed is CONCEALED....

what they don't know.....

anyway in the described context.... IT IS LEGAL FOR ME TO DO THIS IN MY STATE OF RESIDENCE until they ask me to leave then if I refuse I risk a trespassing charge, NOT A WEAPONS VIOLATION!

Click to expand...

(15) WE ADVOCATE FOR THE 'LAW-ABIDING' ONLY: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts.

Click to expand...

.

JoeSparky said:

Concealed is CONCEALED....

what they don't know.....

anyway in the described context.... IT IS LEGAL FOR ME TO DO THIS IN MY STATE OF RESIDENCE until they ask me to leave then if I refuse I risk a trespassing charge, NOT A WEAPONS VIOLATION!

Click to expand...

eye95 said:

(15) WE ADVOCATE FOR THE 'LAW-ABIDING' ONLY: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts.

.

Click to expand...

+1

Such thinking and posting is detrimental to public relations and our image. I never support breaking the intentionally.

JoeSparky said:

Concealed is CONCEALED....

what they don't know.....

anyway in the described context.... IT IS LEGAL FOR ME TO DO THIS IN MY STATE OF RESIDENCE until they ask me to leave then if I refuse I risk a trespassing charge, NOT A WEAPONS VIOLATION!

Click to expand...

Not an option at my gunshow. They have LEO working the door and they ask everyone entering, "Do you have any firearms or ammo?". Lying to the deputies is not a good idea. They can arrest you just for that if they twist it around enough I'm sure.

couldn't get the "quote with reply" function to do what I wanted here so....

eye95 said:

.

Click to expand...

Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
Concealed is CONCEALED....

what they don't know.....

anyway in the described context.... IT IS LEGAL FOR ME TO DO THIS IN MY STATE OF RESIDENCE until they ask me to leave then if I refuse I risk a trespassing charge, NOT A WEAPONS VIOLATION!
(end of my original post)
(Start of what eye95 quoted)
(15) WE ADVOCATE FOR THE 'LAW-ABIDING' ONLY: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts.
.

And I was NOT advocating ILLEGAL actions as I indicated in my original post. Which makes me even more glad that I live where I do. IN UTAH "NO WEAPONS" TYPE SIGNS HAVE NO LEGAL BEARING WHATSOEVER.

JoeSparky said:

couldn't get the "quote with reply" function to do what I wanted here so....



Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
Concealed is CONCEALED....

what they don't know.....

anyway in the described context.... IT IS LEGAL FOR ME TO DO THIS IN MY STATE OF RESIDENCE until they ask me to leave then if I refuse I risk a trespassing charge, NOT A WEAPONS VIOLATION!
(end of my original post)
(Start of what eye95 quoted)
(15) WE ADVOCATE FOR THE 'LAW-ABIDING' ONLY: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts.
.

And I was NOT advocating ILLEGAL actions as I indicated in my original post. Which makes me even more glad that I live where I do. IN UTAH "NO WEAPONS" TYPE SIGNS HAVE NO LEGAL BEARING WHATSOEVER.

Click to expand...

Whether it is legal in your State is debatable, but moot.

The point is that the first part of your post is generally suggesting that people ignore no carry signs because they could successfully deceive the folks at the gun show by concealing. It is not debatable that what you are generally advocating is illegal in many jurisdictions.

I tried to be subtle. That clearly did not work. So, I will be blunt.

I find it reprehensible that you are advocating that others should break the law. IMO, your post violates the principles of this site.

Moving on.

In Minnesota, as in Alabama, simply carrying past a sign (and in MN there has to be a very specific sign) does not constitute a violation of the law.
In order to be in violation, you would have to carry inside, be asked to leave, and refuse.
You would then be in violation of trespassing laws.

I think you would be clearly legal carrying into the public areas of the fairgrounds, but once into their leased area you will have to follow their rules or leave.

Essentially the same reasoning that prevents us from carrying in secure areas of airports. "Our house, our rules. Don't like it? Go somewhere else", which I do whenever possible.

230therapy said:

...I prefer to NOT patronize establishments that needlessly disarm me. There are other sources for firearms...I'd avoid that place.

Click to expand...

Depending on the size of the show and attendance, there ARE guns in there that are NOT available elsewhere . . .

JoeSparky said:

Concealed is CONCEALED....

what they don't know.....

anyway in the described context.... IT IS LEGAL FOR ME TO DO THIS IN MY STATE OF RESIDENCE until they ask me to leave then if I refuse I risk a trespassing charge, NOT A WEAPONS VIOLATION!

Click to expand...

I have been challenged by one stating that I am violating forum rules (advocating illegal activities) with my quoted post above...

Please let me clarify.... ONLY CONCEAL IF YOU CAN LEGALLY.
And in my State of Residence "NO WEAPONS" type signs have NO FORCE OF LAW. I can legally carry past these types of signs at locations open to the public. Now, IF I AM ASKED TO LEAVE BY ONE IN CONTROL OF THAT PROPERTY (for whatever reason) and I don't, then I may be guilty of trespassing IF THEY CAN PROVE THAT I substantially interfered with the owner's use of the property! see 76-6-206(4)(a) + (b)

Beware: the laws in YOUR location may be different!

http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_06_020600.htm

76-6-206. Criminal trespass.
(1) As used in this section, "enter" means intrusion of the entire body.
(2) A person is guilty of criminal trespass if, under circumstances not amounting to burglary as defined in Section 76-6-202, 76-6-203, or 76-6-204 or a violation of Section 76-10-2402 regarding commercial obstruction:
(a) the person enters or remains unlawfully on property and:
(i) intends to cause annoyance or injury to any person or damage to any property, including the use of graffiti as defined in Section 76-6-107;
(ii) intends to commit any crime, other than theft or a felony; or
(iii) is reckless as to whether his presence will cause fear for the safety of another;
(b) knowing the person's entry or presence is unlawful, the person enters or remains on property as to which notice against entering is given by:
(i) personal communication to the actor by the owner or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner;
(ii) fencing or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude intruders; or
(iii) posting of signs reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders; or
(c) the person enters a condominium unit in violation of Subsection 57-8-7(7).
(3) (a) A violation of Subsection (2)(a) or (b) is a class B misdemeanor unless it was committed in a dwelling, in which event it is a class A misdemeanor.
(b) A violation of Subsection (2)(c) is an infraction.
(4) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
(a) the property was open to the public when the actor entered or remained; and
(b) the actor's conduct did not substantially interfere with the owner's use of the property.

Amended by Chapter 334, 2010 General Session

I disagree that I have violated the forum rules on this. But, You have my "clarification" above!

Daddyo said:

In Minnesota, as in Alabama, simply carrying past a sign (and in MN there has to be a very specific sign) does not constitute a violation of the law.

Click to expand...

That is incorrect. You may wish to actually read Alabama law before making statements about it.

Section 13A-7-4
Criminal trespass in the third degree.

(a) A person is guilty of criminal trespass in the third degree when he knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in or upon premises.

Click to expand...

As a matter of practicality, not as a matter of black-letter law, police will be reluctant to arrest for trespass simply because of a sign. However, knowingly ignoring the sign is still a crime. It is particularly foolish to advocate for such a crime and then commit it! That kinda obviates the need for someone to verbally remind the offender of the policy. If one states he is going to do it, and then does it, that qualifies for "knowingly."

And, frankly, I think that OCDO is getting a little loose about folks here advocating criminal activity on their board.

Finally, as I pointed out to the person advocating deliberately trespassing, his initial statements did not qualify that he was only advocating committing the crime in MN. It wasn't until he spoke of himself that he indicated that he would not be committing a crime, which, as I said is arguable, since his post demonstrates intent.

At the Dulles Expo center they zip tie them when you enter. Right when I leave I cut zip tie and reload. The range I go to the weapon has to be cleared prior to entering. When I asked why they said they had a guy trying holsters with it loaded so they started the policy.

I attended a local gun show under similar circumstances. I found I was able to move the ty-wrap around and fit my gun into the holster. I don't remember why I carried that gun in on that day. I think I came back the next day and tried to find a holster for my pocket gun, but wasn't able to find a match. Like so many others, I OC'd a rifle as well -- which was humorous in and of itself because it took two ty-wraps to secure, being bolt action. Oh, and we had to check our bullets... Nothing like digging through a box of envelopes trying to find YOUR bullets.

I'd reason so say that it was the safest place in the city to be at the time. I know once I stepped out the door, I had reloaded and re-armed. Because walking out the door, I asked the police officer to cut the ty-wrap off my guns. =)

Anyway, legal or not, just play the game. You don't want to be the ND or AD at the show, which is the reason for the rules. Many people are purchasing their first gun and don't have a level of familiarity with firearms to be safe -- and some are entirely too familiar and careless. Feel free to OC, but do respect the show operators. They like guns as much as you do. =)