That "militia thing"

slowfiveoh · Mar 25, 2013

Beretta92FSLady said:
I'm not making my references to the Federalist under the guise of a qualified, or educated standpoint; I did not claim to.

Your question was regarding inference, not actual. read your previous posts. Please, pay attention to what you write.

People, don't Google for information on the Federalist, get a copy of it, and read it in it entirety.

Do you or do you not claim that there is a difference between a capitalized [M]ilitia and non-capitalized [m]ilitia?

Clarify.

Here, for the viewing pleasure of everyone, is the entire Federalist Paper #29: Link

"militia" is mentioned 28 times. Once it is capitalized, but there is NO distinction as it is mentioned 27 other times in lower case, all representative of the same thing.
"posse comitatus" is mentioned 3 times.

Next time you are in D.C., I will happily throw on my "LGBT Ally" shirt and march you over to the Library of Congress.

You can then go through the entire list of documents as I have, and make excuses for the lack of difference between the two. Be ready to stay here for a week or two. There's only 85 of them. Also, "Concerning the General Power of Taxation" (30-36) is boring as hell. So be ready for that.

Your embarrassment is your own. You own it.

Now cite, or continue to embarrass the hell out of yourself.

Beretta92FSLady · Mar 25, 2013

slowfiveoh said:
Do you or do you not claim that there is a difference between a capitalized [M]ilitia and non-capitalized [m]ilitia?

Clarify.

Here, for the viewing pleasure of everyone, is the entire Federalist Paper #29: Link

"militia" is mentioned 28 times. Not once is it capitalized.
"posse comitatus" is mentioned 3 times.

Next time you are in D.C., I will happily throw on my "LGBT Ally" shirt and march you over to the Library of Congress.

You can then go through the entire list of documents as I have, and make excuses for the lack of difference between the two.

Your embarrassment is your own. You own it.

Now cite, or continue to embarrass the hell out of yourself.

There is an inference.

No need to slap on the shirt...you can go shirtless.

LGBT Ally LMAO! That's awesome.

I'm incapable of being embarrassed.

That would be pretty awesome, though, going through them all, discussing them. I wonder if I could get a local group together for that.

slowfiveoh · Mar 25, 2013

Beretta92FSLady said:
There is an inference.

No need to slap on the shirt...you can go shirtless.

LGBT Ally LMAO! That's awesome.

I'm incapable of being embarrassed.

That would be pretty awesome, though, going through them all, discussing them. I wonder if I could get a local group together for that.

My mother is a lesbian. My sister bisexual. My sister-in-law (my motorcycle riding "buddy") is a lesbian.

I am a humanist.

Now stop being dramatic and uneducated in your responses. The man needed the appropriate definition of what a militia was, and instead of citing you made a dramatic appeal to your uneducated opinion, which makes you look like a blatant ass.

Citing does matter.
Being accurate does matter.

So taking your own advice maybe you should, "Read the Federalist papers".

SouthernBoy · Mar 25, 2013

Beretta92FSLady said:
Nothing a bit of propaganda won't fix. Goebbels proved that. Yes, there will be some service members who won't play ball, but most will.

They throw a wrench in it because we follow certain rules. But as I stated: If the Federal Government took to its own citizens, who would assure the hand wasn't so heavy?

This is not what I found out when I interviewed officers on varying occasions about this very topic. Specifically, about whether or not they would carry out an executive order to begin confiscating privately held arms. To a man, the responded that most officers and the majority of enlisted personnel would refuse to obey the order. Their reason? Such an order would be illegal and after all, they took an oath of service to the Constitution and therefore they could not obey such an order, not to mention Posse Comitatus.

Suppose something like this actually unfolded. This is a big country and the federal government doesn't have enough personnel to do this quickly... it would take some time. State and local police are not likely to help the feds (there may be some who would) so that slows things down even more. Some sheriffs would arrest any feds who tried this sort of nonsense in their counties. And then there is this.

You can bet there would be some shooting and blood letting if this began. So let's say the president declares martial law, disbands the Constitution, and does involve the military. Now the thing escalates a bit. The military is made up of people all over the nation. So now we have some personnel from Oklahoma getting into small fire fights in, say, Pennsylvania and people are getting killed, homes destroyed. This Oklahoma troops are thinking, "Hell if this is happening here in Pennsylvania, I'd bet it's also happening back home where I come from". They might have second thoughts about firing on people knowing full well their families, neighbors, and friends are getting fired upon where they are from.

Trying to do a full scale confiscation at the federal level or worse, open hostilities between the federal government and the citizens is not going to go well for the feds. Especially in light of the mood of the country over the past four years. There is real division and that is a fact. But open hostilities is an entirely different matter. Not saying it can't happen, just saying if it does, things might not turn out as planned by Washington.

eye95 · Mar 25, 2013

slowfiveoh said:
10 USC § 311 - Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

She keeps saying it. You keep pointing out that she is wrong. And she keeps saying it! Is it that she can't learn, she won't learn, or she has learned but does not care, intending to keep spreading the lie?

Gil223 · Mar 26, 2013

Beretta92FSLady said:
My prediction will be: Most of the 80 million firearm owners will sit down, and shut the heck up if (it won't happen) the Government came knocking on their door to confiscate their firearms.

The same way it "didn't happen" in New Orleans after Katrina, eh? You have far too much faith in the "honor" of our elected officials and their political appointees. No wonder you can't connect the dots.

Pax...

sudden valley gunner · Mar 26, 2013

SouthernBoy said:
This is not what I found out when I interviewed officers on varying occasions about this very topic. Specifically, about whether or not they would carry out an executive order to begin confiscating privately held arms. To a man, the responded that most officers and the majority of enlisted personnel would refuse to obey the order. Their reason? Such an order would be illegal and after all, they took an oath of service to the Constitution and therefore they could not obey such an order, not to mention Posse Comitatus.

Suppose something like this actually unfolded. This is a big country and the federal government doesn't have enough personnel to do this quickly... it would take some time. State and local police are not likely to help the feds (there may be some who would) so that slows things down even more. Some sheriffs would arrest any feds who tried this sort of nonsense in their counties. And then there is this.

You can bet there would be some shooting and blood letting if this began. So let's say the president declares martial law, disbands the Constitution, and does involve the military. Now the thing escalates a bit. The military is made up of people all over the nation. So now we have some personnel from Oklahoma getting into small fire fights in, say, Pennsylvania and people are getting killed, homes destroyed. This Oklahoma troops are thinking, "Hell if this is happening here in Pennsylvania, I'd bet it's also happening back home where I come from". They might have second thoughts about firing on people knowing full well their families, neighbors, and friends are getting fired upon where they are from.

Trying to do a full scale confiscation at the federal level or worse, open hostilities between the federal government and the citizens is not going to go well for the feds. Especially in light of the mood of the country over the past four years. There is real division and that is a fact. But open hostilities is an entirely different matter. Not saying it can't happen, just saying if it does, things might not turn out as planned by Washington.

Along this line of discussion it is not the military I fear, it is the ever increasing "first responders" known as your State, County and varying Municipalities law enforcement (along with armed, Alphabet soup of Government agents, even DOE) that we have fear. They are increasingly militarized increasingly caring less and less about their constitutionally restricted position, they have for the most part given up the ruse of "to serve and protect" and have become really nothing more than the states street warriors.

beebobby · Mar 26, 2013

IMHO, the necessity of a citizen militia has been eliminated now that we have the most powerful standing military in the world, with bases in every state. Now it is just an anachronism. The extremely small percentage of folks that envision forming a militia to take up arms against our democratically chosen govt. would get their asses handed to them by our nations LEOs. I don't even think the military would have to get involved, unless the insurgents had help from a foreign power, as we helped Afganistan against the Russians and France helped us against England. I don't understand the motivation of folks who spend time daydreaming about opening fire on other Americans because of political differences or different interpretations of our laws.

“ In your hands, my dissatisfied fellow-countrymen, and not in mine, is the momentous issue of civil war. The Government will not assail you. You can have no conflict without being yourselves the aggressors. You have no oath registered in heaven to destroy the Government, while I shall have the most solemn one to "preserve, protect, and defend it."

Abraham Lincoln's first inaugural speech.
Seems fitting.

Fallschirjmäger · Mar 26, 2013

In today's parlance, "Militia" could indeed be interpreted as being the organized Militia (see? I just used it that way, too) which would support the idea of the Second Amendment being a collective right, and that it authorized the government to bear arms. Did that just make you tilt your head a bit, the idea of the government even having the notion that it must give itself permission to have an armed army or navy?

In the parlance of the times, important words were often capitalized, likely a result of Germanic influence (they were the largest non-English speaking minority at the time, somewhere near 100,000 strong.)

I've seen both militia and Militia used when discussing the second amendment, which one is used in the original and if it's important is debatable.

Whitney · Mar 26, 2013

The Military Code of the State of Washington

Check your State provisions you might be surprised how clear it really is.

RCW 38.04.010 http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=38.04.010

When used in this title, the following words, terms, phrases shall have the following meaning:
The word "militia" shall mean the military forces provided for in the Constitution and laws of the state of Washington.
The term "organized militia" shall be the general term to include both state and national guard and whenever used applies equally to all such organizations.
The term "national guard" shall mean that part of the military force of the state that is organized, equipped and federally recognized under the provisions of the national defense act of the United States, and, in the event the national guard is called into federal service or in the event the state guard or any part or individual member thereof is called into active state service by the commander-in-chief, the term shall also include the "Washington state guard" or any temporary organization set up in times of emergency to replace either the "national guard" or "state guard" while in actual service of the United States.
The term "state guard" shall mean that part of the military forces of the state that is organized, equipped, and recognized under the provisions of the State Defense Forces Act of the United States (32 U.S.C. Sec. 109, as amended).
The term "active state service" or "active training duty" shall be construed to be any service on behalf of the state, or at encampments whether ordered by state or federal authority or any other duty requiring the entire time of any organization or person except when called or drafted into the federal service by the president of the United States.
The term "inactive duty" shall include periods of drill and such other training and service not requiring the entire time of the organization or person, as may be required under state or federal laws, regulations, or orders, including travel to and from such duty.
The terms "in service of United States" and "not in service of United States" as used herein shall be understood to mean the same as such terms when used in the national defense act of congress and amendments thereto.
The term "military" refers to any or all of the armed forces.
The term "armory" refers to any state-owned building, warehouse, vehicle storage compound, organizational maintenance shop or other facility and the lands appurtenant thereto used by the Washington national guard for the storage and maintenance of arms or military equipment or the administration or training of the organized militia.
The term "member" refers to a soldier or airman of the organized militia.

~Whitney

Whitney · Mar 26, 2013

But wait ther's more.......

Composition of the militia.
The militia of the state of Washington shall consist of all able bodied citizens of the United States and all other able bodied persons who have declared their intention to become citizens of the United States, residing within this state, who shall be more than eighteen years of age, and shall include all persons who are members of the national guard and the state guard, and said militia shall be divided into two classes, the organized militia and the unorganized militia.

Composition of organized militia.
The organized militia of Washington shall consist of the commissioned officers, warrant officers, enlisted persons, organizations, staffs, corps, and departments of the regularly commissioned, warranted and enlisted militia of the state, organized and maintained pursuant to law. Its numerical strength, composition, distribution, organization, arms, uniforms, equipment, training and discipline shall be prescribed by the governor in conformity with, and subject to the limitations imposed by the laws and regulations of the United States and the laws of this state: PROVIDED, HOWEVER, That the minimum enlisted strength of the organized militia of this state shall never be less than two thousand. The organized militia may include persons residing outside the state of Washington.

So.....where do you see yourself here?

~Whitney

Gil223 · Mar 26, 2013

beebobby said:
IMHO, the necessity of a citizen militia has been eliminated now that we have the most powerful standing military in the world, with bases in every state. Now it is just an anachronism. The extremely small percentage of folks that envision forming a militia to take up arms against our democratically chosen govt. would get their asses handed to them by our nations LEOs. I don't even think the military would have to get involved, unless the insurgents had help from a foreign power, as we helped Afganistan against the Russians and France helped us against England. I don't understand the motivation of folks who spend time daydreaming about opening fire on other Americans because of political differences or different interpretations of our laws.

“ In your hands, my dissatisfied fellow-countrymen, and not in mine, is the momentous issue of civil war. The Government will not assail you. You can have no conflict without being yourselves the aggressors. You have no oath registered in heaven to destroy the Government, while I shall have the most solemn one to "preserve, protect, and defend it."

Abraham Lincoln's first inaugural speech.
Seems fitting.

You have no oath registered in heaven to destroy the Government, while I shall have the most solemn one to "preserve, protect, and defend it."

We have no oath registered anywhere to "preserve, protect and defend" the government. Our oaths were taken to "preserve, protect and defend" the CONSTITUTION, not to any individual or organization... not the government, or even the head monkey.
:monkey
Lincoln is no longer president, and he who occupies the Oval Office is unfit to call himself "American". Pax...

beebobby · Mar 26, 2013

Gil223 said:
We have no oath registered anywhere to "preserve, protect and defend" the government. Our oaths were taken to "preserve, protect and defend" the CONSTITUTION, not to any individual or organization... not the government, or even the head monkey.
:monkey
Lincoln is no longer president, and he who occupies the Oval Office is unfit to call himself "American". Pax...

"head monkey"? Seriously?

Fallschirjmäger · Mar 26, 2013

beebobby said:
"head monkey"? Seriously?

I'm sure he meant head monkey in charge and wasn't trying to disparage the dignity of the office.

rushcreek2 · Mar 26, 2013

A force comprised of members that would rather be at home with their families following the "assault" will rapidly whither in the face of a counter-force that is prepared to defend their constitutionally secured liberties to the death in the face of a government that is intent upon oppressing those liberties. The side that has nowhere to go home to after the battle will always possess an advantage.

skidmark · Mar 26, 2013

Dear Sweet Fluffy Shivering Shiva on a Pogo Stick!

It's a Virginia-specific question. Let's see what the Virginia laws say, OK?

§ 44-1. Composition of militia.
The militia of the Commonwealth of Virginia shall consist of all able-bodied residents of the Commonwealth who are citizens of the United States and all other able-bodied persons resident in the Commonwealth who have declared their intention to become citizens of the United States, who are at least 16 years of age and, except as hereinafter provided, not more than 55 years of age. The militia shall be divided into four classes: the National Guard, which includes the Army National Guard and the Air National Guard; the Virginia Defense Force; the naval militia; and the unorganized militia.

§ 44-4. Composition of unorganized militia.
The unorganized militia shall consist of all able-bodied persons as set out in § 44-1, except such as may be included in §§ 44-2, 44-3, and 44-54.6, and except such as may be exempted as hereinafter provided.

Not saying the assembly is a riot, but that call could be made.

§18.2-411. Dispersal of unlawful or riotous assemblies; duties of officers.
When any number of persons, whether armed or not, are unlawfully or riotously assembled, the sheriff of the county and his deputies, the police officials of the county, city or town, and any assigned militia, or any of them, shall go among the persons assembled or as near to them as safety will permit and command them in the name of the Commonwealth immediately to disperse. If upon such command the persons unlawfully assembled do not disperse immediately, such sheriff, officer or militia may use such force as is reasonably necessary to disperse them and to arrest those who fail or refuse to disperse. To accomplish this end, the sheriff or other law-enforcement officer may request and use the assistance and services of private citizens. Every endeavor shall be used, both by such sheriff or other officers and by the officer commanding any other force, which can be made consistently with the preservation of life, to induce or force those unlawfully assembled to disperse before an attack is made upon those unlawfully assembled by which their lives may be endangered.

§ 44-75.1. Militia state active duty.
A. The Governor or his designee may call forth the militia or any part thereof to state active duty for service in any of the following circumstances:
1. In the event of invasion or insurrection or imminent threat of either;
2. When any combination of persons becomes so powerful as to obstruct the execution of laws in any part of this Commonwealth;
3. When the Governor determines that a state agency or agencies having law-enforcement responsibilities are in need of assistance to perform particular law-enforcement functions, which functions he shall specify in his call to the militia;
4. In the event of flood, hurricane, fire or other forms of natural or man-made disaster wherein human life, public or private property, or the environment is imperiled;
5. In emergencies of lesser magnitude than those described in subdivision 4, including but not limited to the disruption of vital public services, wherein the use of militia personnel or equipment would be of assistance to one or more departments, agencies, institutions, or political subdivisions of the Commonwealth;
6. When the Governor determines that the National Guard and its assets would be of valuable assistance to state, local or federal agencies having a drug law-enforcement function to combat the flow of or use of illegal drugs in the Commonwealth, he may provide for the National Guard or any part thereof to support drug interdiction, counterdrug and demand reduction activities within the Commonwealth, or outside the Commonwealth under the National Guard Mutual Assistance Counterdrug Activities Compact. In calling forth the National Guard under this section, the Governor shall specify the type of support that the National Guard shall undertake with state, local or federal law-enforcement agencies. Once called forth by the Governor, the National Guard is also specifically authorized to enter into mutual assistance and support agreements with any law-enforcement agencies, state or federal, operating within or outside this Commonwealth so long as those activities are consistent with the Governor's call. All activities undertaken by the National Guard in the areas of drug interdiction, counterdrug and drug demand reduction shall be reported by the Adjutant General's office to the Governor and reviewed by the Governor no less frequently than every three months; and
7. When the Governor or his designee, in consultation with the Adjutant General, determines that the militia or any part thereof is in need of specific training to be prepared for being called forth for any of the circumstances expressed in subdivisions 1 through 6 above. Such training may be conducted with a state or federal agency or agencies having the capability or responsibility to coordinate or assist with any of the circumstances set forth in subdivisions 1 through 6 above.
B. The Virginia National Guard shall be designated as a state law-enforcement agency for the sole purpose of receiving property and revenues pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 981(e) (2), 19 U.S.C. § 1616a, and 21 U.S.C. § 881(e) (1) (A).

There is no statutory training/mustering of the unorganized militia

§ 44-75.2. Militia training duty.
Subject to the direction and orders of the Governor, the Adjutant General shall provide for the training and administration of the National Guard and the Virginia Defense Force and shall require the members of the National Guard and the Virginia Defense Force to attend such training when scheduled. Members of the National Guard may assist on an unpaid, volunteer basis in the training and administration of the Virginia Defense Force. Whether training in a paid or unpaid status, members of the National Guard and Virginia Defense Force shall at all times be subject to the orders of their respective commanders.

§ 44-86. When ordered out for service.
The commander in chief may at any time, in order to execute the law, suppress riots or insurrections, or repel invasion, or aid in any form of disaster wherein the lives or property of citizens are imperiled or may be imperiled, order out the National Guard and the inactive National Guard or any parts thereof, or the whole or any part of the unorganized militia. When the militia of this Commonwealth, or a part thereof, is called forth under the Constitution and laws of the United States, the Governor shall order out for service the National Guard, or such part thereof as may be necessary; and he may likewise order out such a part of the unorganized militia as he may deem necessary. During the absence of organizations of the National Guard in the service of the United States, their state designations shall not be given to new organizations.

§ 44-87. Manner of ordering out for service.
The Governor shall, when ordering out the unorganized militia, designate the number to be so called. He may order them out either by calling for volunteers or by draft.

§ 44-89. Draft of unorganized militia.
If the unorganized militia is ordered out by draft, the Governor shall designate the persons in each county and city to make the draft, and prescribe rules and regulations for conducting the same.

§ 44-90. Punishment for failure to appear.
Every member of the militia ordered out for duty, or who shall volunteer or be drafted, who does not appear at the time and place ordered, shall be liable to such punishment as a court-martial may direct.

§ 46.2-827. Right-of-way of United States forces, troops, national guard, etc.
United States forces or troops, or any portion of the Virginia national guard or naval militia, parading or performing any duty according to law, or any civil defense personnel performing any duty according to law, shall have the right-of-way in any highway through which they may pass. Such passage, however, shall not interfere with the carrying of the United States mails and the legitimate functions of police and fire fighters or with the passage of emergency vehicles as defined in § 46.2-920.

And last, but not least

§ 44-57. Arms and equipment.
The arms and equipment of the naval militia shall be those prescribed for the naval reserve.

There is no comparable statute concerning the militia that is not the naval militia.

I may have missed it, but AFAIK there is no law against a marching society. Other state laws regarding the carry of loaded/unloaded firearms would apply.

stay safe.

LEX_XDM40compact · Mar 26, 2013

As for op's actual question I personally dont think anything would happen if you and 90 buddies simply parked downtown, walked to an area that allows by your state the carrying of open arms, talked, did whatever you wanted, and left and went home. I also think it would be 100% helpful to any protest for guns.

as for everyone else. In any situation whilst a true national war to happen between the US government and its citizen on any level. im certain based on personal knowings a good % of the US troops would be on the citizens side. Not to mention if anything happened it would be a true make or break hell break loose type of situation where troops would flip ship and turn on the US Government in said times.

again you all seem to be missing the "what if?" question. In any true government breakdown vs its citizens there will be no rule of law. and any and every "oath" will not be valid nor mattered.

Thats about as far as my "SHTF" militia vs US government goes.

nonameisgood · Mar 27, 2013

It will start slowly, like a creeping illness which remains undiagnosed and untreated because it is not recognized as such. There will be an upwelling of public support for the government against a small group of wackos. There will be support for more laws and law enforcement. Very few if us will recognize it, and it won't take a conspiracy, it will take a very small event that happens naturally.

It will be insidious and obscure. And when it snowballs, people will be afraid to act. And soon it will be too late for people to change their minds.

We need to be proactive in preventing this. The solution is political.

Gil223 · Mar 27, 2013

beebobby said:
"head monkey"? Seriously?

Yeah... consider it to be a First Amendment thing. It's also a colloquialism referring to the person in charge of anything. I have never been accused of being PC. And the only thing you could comment on was "head monkey"? Seriously?:shocker

ax...

SouthernBoy · Mar 27, 2013

sudden valley gunner said:
Along this line of discussion it is not the military I fear, it is the ever increasing "first responders" known as your State, County and varying Municipalities law enforcement (along with armed, Alphabet soup of Government agents, even DOE) that we have fear. They are increasingly militarized increasingly caring less and less about their constitutionally restricted position, they have for the most part given up the ruse of "to serve and protect" and have become really nothing more than the states street warriors.

In Virginia, I don't worry very much about our state and local police or sheriff's departments. But I would be concerned about the "alphabet soup" federal agencies. However, they could have some problems because there are not enough of them and they are not likely to get much help from local agencies in a lot of states. I would think that if the executive branch was going to do something dramatic, they would try to use the military and the national guard as their first choices. But heck, I'll be the first to admit I know little about this subject area compared to a lot of folks on these forums.

That "militia thing"

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