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Cox Corporate Policy is No Guns

rpyne

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
1,072
Location
Provo, Utah, USA
Throughout history you find where certain rights trump other rights. The problem that most have is that they frame the Right to Keep and Bear Arms as a property right to the arms. This is completely wrong. The RKBA is the right to protect life and liberty, and as such does, through centuries of legal history, trump property rights. Just as a simple example take a look at the phrase "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness", note that life is the first right, as without life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are impossible. Also note that early drafts were worded "Life, Liberty and Property" indicating that the rights of Life and Liberty trump the rights of property.

Attorney Mitch Vilos includes a very good treatise on this topic in his book on Utah gun laws.

As for me, if a business does not respect my right to defend my life, I take my business and money elsewhere.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
No right ever "trumps" another. Any action by an individual that would deprive another of his rights is, by definition, not a right.

Careful analysis in every situation where an apparent conflict of rights exists will reveal that one of the actions is not actually a right. In analyzing the seeming conflict between the right to carry and the right to enjoy one's property, one of the two actions (carrying on the property of another or setting the rules for enjoying one's property to disallow carry) is not a right. Which one isn't?

The key is to look at which action prevents the exercise of that portion of the other action that is an actual right.

In order to protect the ability to carry on the property of another, it must be made unlawful to stop another from carrying on your property. That requires intervention by the government into the enjoyment of one's private property.

On the other hand, in order to protect one's ability to keep guns off his property, the government needs no new laws. The necessary laws that government would need to have in place to protect one's property rights from others are already in place and widely accepted function of government among those who espouse Liberty: trespass laws. When a property owner disallows carry on his property, he does not stop anyone from carrying. He merely presents the carrier with a choice. The carrier may continue to carry and not visit the premises, or he can choose not to carry while he visits.

In the case of carrying on another's property being protected by the force of law, no choice is presented. If one owns property, one must allow carry on it. The only choice is not to own, which is the antithesis of the right to enjoy property.

There is no conflict of rights. There is no right trumping another. There is only, "I can't do what I want to do on his property. Make him let me." That is the exact opposite of government existing to protect our Liberty. It is government deciding which action is correct and which is not, without considering actual natural rights. That is tyranny.
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
No right ever "trumps" another. Any action by an individual that would deprive another of his rights is, by definition, not a right.

Pure bunk. The top three enumerated rights in our Declaration of Independence are "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," rights to which both I and a hypothetical gent standing outside my door possess in equal measure.

He kicks in my door, violating my right to privacy, and steps inside, violating my right to be secure in my person. Both are considerably further down on the totem pole than one's right to life. I have the lights dimmed, as I'm watching a movie, and can only see his outline from the lights in the common area breezeway. Rather than taking a chance he might be pointing a gun at me and getting ready to fire, I rest on our state's castle law and send him on his way to meet the ultimate judge.

In so doing, I just deprived him of all three rights. He's now dead, so right to life is out the window. Because he's dead, he can no longer move and might as well be wrapped in chains, so his right to liberty is out the window. Although he's dead, perhaps the ultimate judge will forgive him for his sins, or perhaps they weren't all that bad, so I can't speak about his happiness in the afterlife, if there is one. At the very least, however, I just ended his ability to pursue happiness in this life. If there's no afterlife, I ended his ability to pursue happiness for all time.

So, according to the law, my right to privacy and security just trumped his right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Careful analysis in every situation where an apparent conflict of rights exists will reveal that one of the actions is not actually a right.

Which of us did not actually have a right or rights in the situation I described above? Some may say, "Well, he forfeited his rights when he kicked in your door." Really? All of them? If all he did was kick in my door then remain in the common area (breezeway), I would be exceeding the charter of my state's castle law if I shot him. Yet if an LEO had witnessed his act, they would have arrested him (bye-bye liberty) at which point my rights to privacy and security would have, under the law, trumped his right to liberty.

"But he stepped inside your apartment!" Yes, in this hypothetical situation, he certainly did, which created the legal justification under my state's castle law for my rights (privacy, security) to trump his rights (life, liberty, pursuit of happiness).

Regardless of how you mash it, a hierarchy of rights most certainly does exist, and some rights do indeed deprive others of their own rights.

In analyzing the seeming conflict between the right to carry and the right to enjoy one's property, one of the two actions (carrying on the property of another or setting the rules for enjoying one's property to disallow carry) is not a right. Which one isn't?

Neither. They are both rights.

The key is to look at which action prevents the exercise of that portion of the other action that is an actual right.

In order to protect the ability to carry on the property of another, it must be made unlawful to stop another from carrying on your property. That requires intervention by the government into the enjoyment of one's private property.

On the other hand, in order to protect one's ability to keep guns off his property, the government needs no new laws. The necessary laws that government would need to have in place to protect one's property rights from others are already in place and widely accepted function of government among those who espouse Liberty: trespass laws. When a property owner disallows carry on his property, he does not stop anyone from carrying. He merely presents the carrier with a choice. The carrier may continue to carry and not visit the premises, or he can choose not to carry while he visits.

In the case of carrying on another's property being protected by the force of law, no choice is presented. If one owns property, one must allow carry on it. The only choice is not to own, which is the antithesis of the right to enjoy property.

There is no conflict of rights. There is no right trumping another. There is only, "I can't do what I want to do on his property. Make him let me." That is the exact opposite of government existing to protect our Liberty. It is government deciding which action is correct and which is not, without considering actual natural rights. That is tyranny.

Isn't it far less complicated to simply say, "the rights of the property owner trumps many of the rights of those who're either invited guests or uninvited trespassers onto his property?"

The way you put it is a clear violation of Occam's razor.
 

M-Taliesin

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
Messages
1,504
Location
Aurora, Colorado
Do you ask if shirts, shoes and underwear are required in 7-11?:cool:

Howdy Badger!
Oh, please don't go there. It brings up all manner of bad memories.
You know they have signs that say: "no shirt, no shoes, no service."
Well, I got in a bunch of trouble by not wearing pants.
The sign didn't say anything about not wearing pants.
But oh noooooooo. They hadda make a fuss about it.

Blessings,
M-Taliesin
 

M-Taliesin

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
Messages
1,504
Location
Aurora, Colorado
There as of late has been a growing tendency to direct remarks personally rather than to the subject.
<Snip>
This is becoming a serious issue and I assure you it will not be ignored.

Howdy Grapeshot!
This is one of the most lucid posts I've seen put up lately. I hated to snip it down for brevity, as it seems brilliant to me.

Thank you for a terrific post and well stated point of view.

Blessings,
M-Taliesin
 

Aknazer

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
Location
California
No right ever "trumps" another. Any action by an individual that would deprive another of his rights is, by definition, not a right.

Careful analysis in every situation where an apparent conflict of rights exists will reveal that one of the actions is not actually a right. In analyzing the seeming conflict between the right to carry and the right to enjoy one's property, one of the two actions (carrying on the property of another or setting the rules for enjoying one's property to disallow carry) is not a right. Which one isn't?

The key is to look at which action prevents the exercise of that portion of the other action that is an actual right.

In order to protect the ability to carry on the property of another, it must be made unlawful to stop another from carrying on your property. That requires intervention by the government into the enjoyment of one's private property.

On the other hand, in order to protect one's ability to keep guns off his property, the government needs no new laws. The necessary laws that government would need to have in place to protect one's property rights from others are already in place and widely accepted function of government among those who espouse Liberty: trespass laws. When a property owner disallows carry on his property, he does not stop anyone from carrying. He merely presents the carrier with a choice. The carrier may continue to carry and not visit the premises, or he can choose not to carry while he visits.

In the case of carrying on another's property being protected by the force of law, no choice is presented. If one owns property, one must allow carry on it. The only choice is not to own, which is the antithesis of the right to enjoy property.

There is no conflict of rights. There is no right trumping another. There is only, "I can't do what I want to do on his property. Make him let me." That is the exact opposite of government existing to protect our Liberty. It is government deciding which action is correct and which is not, without considering actual natural rights. That is tyranny.

Except that rights do trump other rights and you are either admitting that or stating that the 2A isn't a right (even if you don't mean to). How so? Because my property rights and the ability to ban weapons from my property trumps your right to bear arms while on my property. This means that either my property rights have trumped your right to keep and bear arms (again, only while on my property), or that your "right" to keep and bear arms isn't actually a right.

You can see similar examples in regards to the 1A and how it relates to libel/slander/etc (your "right" to say what you want is trumped by my right to not have one knowing lie about me).
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Except that rights do trump other rights and you are either admitting that or stating that the 2A isn't a right (even if you don't mean to). How so? Because my property rights and the ability to ban weapons from my property trumps your right to bear arms while on my property. This means that either my property rights have trumped your right to keep and bear arms (again, only while on my property), or that your "right" to keep and bear arms isn't actually a right.

You can see similar examples in regards to the 1A and how it relates to libel/slander/etc (your "right" to say what you want is trumped by my right to not have one knowing lie about me).

You missed my point entirely. The RKBA is a proscription against government. It does not prohibit property owners from setting rules on their property. Even if they will not permit you to carry on their property, you still have the RKBA.

Both rights can be exercised simultaneously, with maximum exercise of Liberty, with neither taking priority over (aka "trumping") the other.
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
The RKBA is a proscription against government. It does not prohibit property owners from setting rules on their property. Even if they will not permit you to carry on their property, you still have the RKBA.

Both rights can be exercised simultaneously, with maximum exercise of Liberty, with neither taking priority over (aka "trumping") the other.

Only whenever the twain never meet. When they do meet, either one or the other will trump the other.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
The point is that they can never meet. If they do one of the two actions is not really a right. A modicum of thought will reveal the one that isn't. You do not have a right to carry onto the private property of another. You don't even have a right to be there.

He can grant you the privilege of enjoying the use of his property, and he can set the conditions under which you do. By definition the right to property means that the owner gets to make these decisions.

Your rights mean that you can refuse any invitation that has strings you don't like.
 

okboomer

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2009
Messages
1,164
Location
Oklahoma, USA
Hi Aknazer,

Yes, in my rural town Cox has the anti-gun sign up. So does the Mid-first bank, but in OKC the Mid-first does NOT. Go figure :lol:

As for asking about the policy, I would be interested in the reply you get. As was stated, only by entering into a discussion do we effect change.

As for the comment about not being able to claim ignorance after asking about the sign, in OK it is your responsibility to see, read, and understand any signage whether it is a sign posted on a door or a sign posted on a fence. For example, a farmer can post his property as offlimits to hunters by simply hanging a sign that says "posted" ... you pass that sign, you are trespassing whether it is in the dead of night or the sign is a quarter mile away.

Back to Cox Corp, well, IMHO they are quite "anti" in their policies and practices, so good luck in getting any change in their gun policy. I would think that part of their policy basis would be the fact that cash payments are taken at that office and at the first of the month, when all payments are due, they could be quite cash heavy. Even a Deputy Sheriff isn't safe in OKC these days.
 
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