stainless1911
Banned
When I met with my rep, I got the same type of response. The legislature wants people to have to qualify to use a right. Eileen told me that she wouild feel more comfortable with OC if we could prove some sort of training.
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The NRA, $$$, SB59 and why we should stop it.
- Thread starter Michigander
- Start date
When I met with my rep, I got the same type of response. The legislature wants people to have to qualify to use a right. Eileen told me that she wouild feel more comfortable with OC if we could prove some sort of training.
detroit_fan
Regular Member
I think we all agree that the training is bad and most if not all of us believe it should not be necessary to exercise a right. There are 3 reasons I support this bill even though it maintains the training requirement.
1-elimination of gun boards. this is long overdue and they need to be abolished asap.
2-it maintains the status quo, so if you don't want the extra training or costs you don't have to do it, and you retain your OC in PFZ with standard CPL option.
3-it will show the public that carrying in PFZ's is not a big deal. it also will encourage MANY more people to carry in the PFZ's. a lot of people do not want to have to OC in some of these places because of the attention it causes, and the potential BS that may come from it. (guy who carried to school to vote lost his job over the bad PR).
This bill gives us more options without eliminating any of our current options, and I think that is a good thing. jmo
Glock9mmOldStyle
Campaign Veteran
I think the OP has voiced legitimate concerns.He has a better understanding of our gun laws than most here. Do I suport this bill? Yes, but after the passage we should work on tweaking it. Thanks to Q & MOC as something is better than nothing & that's what we would of got from this legislature
DrTodd
Michigan Moderator
I don't think anyone here "loves" this legislation and yes, I feel it definitely has aspects which seem to me to be strong indicators that the NRA is involved. I also find it interesting that the class that is referenced to is still in the earliest stages of development. This means that if we wanted to take this class today, we couldn't as it doesn't exist.
All of this notwithstanding, the realities of the legislative process is one of incrementalism and being able to negotiate for the future good of all. What I see is that this bill, if passed, will at least dispel the notion that non-LEOs have no need to carry in the PFZz. I think that after a few years of this nonsense we can change the law to further the idea that CPL holders are law-abiding citizens. At that point we will have eliminated some opposition to the whole notion that we need places where one may not carry a firearm. This is only a first step.
All of this notwithstanding, the realities of the legislative process is one of incrementalism and being able to negotiate for the future good of all. What I see is that this bill, if passed, will at least dispel the notion that non-LEOs have no need to carry in the PFZz. I think that after a few years of this nonsense we can change the law to further the idea that CPL holders are law-abiding citizens. At that point we will have eliminated some opposition to the whole notion that we need places where one may not carry a firearm. This is only a first step.
stainless1911
Banned
Agreed. I dont "love" this law either, but its a step in the right direction, partly for the reasons DF listed. And G9 is right, Michigander knows whats up. I see this bill as a happy medium between our, and the states interests. Things will have to be done incrementally.
Personally, for my needs, I want to see OC/Transportation passed, but I will still actively support bills that promote gun rights, regardless of who those rights are going to be extended to.
Personally, for my needs, I want to see OC/Transportation passed, but I will still actively support bills that promote gun rights, regardless of who those rights are going to be extended to.
detroit_fan
Regular Member
Do I suport this bill? Yes, but after the passage we should work on tweaking it. Thanks to Q & MOC as something is better than nothing & that's what we would of got from this legislature
agreed, it is definitely better than what we were going to get, and hopefully that tweaking will happen sooner rather than later. i think some people forget how mad people are at snyder and the current repub legislature. this next election will most likely end their unopposed control in lansing and once the dems have more power i don't think anything like this has a chance of passing. i think it is very important to get something done this year before it is too late.
well said DrTodd. I also believe showing the public that carry in PFZ's is no big deal is a huge part of this bill.
stainless1911
Banned
My point exactly.
Michigander
Regular Member
If you've read my recent posts you know I'm coming back permantly in a matter of days. Further, now that I don't have to divide my time between school and work, you can expect me to be extremely active for the foreseeable future.
It's not just one person here who doesnt like the concept of fresh licensing. There are others from here I am working with to stop this bill, and they may make themselves known if they wish.
I also want to make it clear, I did not, and would not accuse the Q of being a liar. TheQ is many things, but a liar I have never known him to be, thus I clearly said I wasn't calling him a liar. Rather, I am seeking the full story. Still am, as a matter of fact. The idea that at some point, NRA influence didn't get put into the equation, that is possible, but very difficult to believe. The idea that it was a few people, independent of the NRA hashing it out for everyone's best interests, well, two and two don't often equal five. I believe TheQ, but I also feel like something else doesn't add up.
Detroit fan, to answer your question, writing a book doesnt seem so relevant, and I would never try to use the fact that I wrote as leverage. I made it because I learned the hard way, and I wanted newcomers to not have to experience the hassle. Anyone who wants the information can use it, anyone who doesn't is of no concern to me.
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stainless1911
Banned
Well, Im glad you're back.
If not this bill, what do you think the legislature would actually do something with? They know our concerns, and this is the only thing that has gotten any serious consideration.
If not this bill, what do you think the legislature would actually do something with? They know our concerns, and this is the only thing that has gotten any serious consideration.
xmanhockey7
Regular Member
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2010
- Messages
- 1,195
We've been trying to pass a bill that would eliminate concealed PFZs and it has done nothing. It's very hard to pass it in that state. Sadly to get it passed we need to add the training. The way I see it if you don't like/want to do the extra training don't do it! Obviously most us of us want constitutional carry, with no PFZs, and all that stuff. We can only strive for that and hope for a perfect world. I think right now that's just not going to happen and we need to do what we can to make carrying in more places easier for those who have a CPL. Personally I'd rather take the extra training so I could carry concealed in PFZ than leave my CC gun in the car.
Michigander
Regular Member
Can't say, seeing as I haven't been to the Capitol since 2010, though I do plan to be back in Lansing soon. I don't pretend to have answers on what I think will pass and what won't. I have stated that I think this is a step in the wrong direction, not that I am someone who thinks he has a solution for everything.
detroit_fan
Regular Member
so basically you are trying to kill this bill but not offer anything that has a chance to pass in it's place?
TheQ
Regular Member
If you stand against us, I wish you luck in getting something better out of the legislature. Let me know when you have your bill getting heard and I'm sure I will testify for it -- if you managed to get it heard (I don't think you'll be able to... )
)
stainless1911
Banned
DetroitFan and TheQ are right.
This is what we have on the table to work with. We better just unite, and take it for now. WE can work together to take other steps later. We will anyhow, so it isnt like we are losing anything here.
Its a cost/benefit thing.
This is what we have on the table to work with. We better just unite, and take it for now. WE can work together to take other steps later. We will anyhow, so it isnt like we are losing anything here.
Its a cost/benefit thing.
TheQ
Regular Member
I wish you luck in getting SB-58 or HB-4009/4010 heard in their original forms. I tried. I tried hard -- broke my back to that end.
Senator Green would love to get SB-58 heard as introduced. It isn't happening. At the end of the day, we got SB-59. If you think you can get something better than what the most pro-gun Senator (Green) has gotten with SB-59, have at it. I don't think you'll make it far. In the meantime, you will have gotten this bill (which increases rights for everyone -- or gives them that opportunity) killed and no improvements will have been made.
I hope you'll feel good about it.
If there's any SPECIFIC changes in language you'd like, you can email me at PHofmeister@miopencarry.org. I'll pass them along. Understand, the training was a hard sticking point in negotiations with the Senate Leadership -- without the Senate leadership this bill goes no where. With all that being said, I withdraw from this thread and await your email.
ETA: Once SB-59 passes, our next order of business will be to eliminate the PFZs completely.
Also note: SB-59 helps OCers with PFZs. Right now many people (including judges like Rosemarie Aqualina) see the "OC in a PFZ with a CPL" as a loophole and they WILL convict you of violating MCL 28.425o. SB-59 would solidify our position that you CAN OC in a PFZ with a CPL -- thus it DOES help OCers.
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B
Bikenut
Guest
Ok.. Q.... talk to me, and everyone else, about that part. Please explain how that part works in detail.
Michigander
Regular Member
In very brief summary, I don't see the benefit of new licenses and millions of dollars to hard core enemies of open carry. I have made that clear, this was my main goal of this thread.
The laws in regard to ocing in pistol free zones are clear, backed by AG opinions, MSP documents and years of OCing in a CEZ. If there is a city or town using their police and their court to challenge this legal practice anywhere near my brothers house in metro Detroit where I'll be living, let me know, and I will spear head an effort to challenge them.
One thing which we haven't discussed much is that college students seem to be into this. To my knowledge it won't nullify the community college act. Thus, rather than a 6 month suspension of a students CPL, a 500 dollar fine and expulsion, a student will ONLY face expulsion from a government run college they spent a whole lot more than 500 dollars to be at. That is in my opinion far from a victory for college students. If my requests to pull the plug are falling on deaf ears, but you want to try to improve it where you can, this would be a good issue to address very thoroughly.
If I ghost write legislation or help someone write some, will it pass? I don't know, but I do know that I'm in this game for the long haul. For years I have mostly laid low, not really caring about getting a spotlight on me and the cause, just using my brain power to help where I can. Living somewhere I don't want to be for over a year has made me realize this is a mistake. I'm in this to see it through. I don't know how long it will take, or if I'll live to see my libertarian gun goals realized, but I do know I will be doing everything I can to take any steps I can to reach towards them. As Steve Jobs said, don't ever settle, don't live someone else's life.
Something I have believed from the very beginning of my participation with open carrying is that we are a group of volunteers who are neither required to or prohibited from doing anything legal. When we want help with a project, those who wish to volunteer do so. Does that mean we should have all encompassing respect for each others opinions? Hell no! Only by arguing things out will we come to a conclusion that will resemble anything desirable.
So all that said, I've made my opinions very clear, so has everyone else. I don't think there is much more to discuss.
The laws in regard to ocing in pistol free zones are clear, backed by AG opinions, MSP documents and years of OCing in a CEZ. If there is a city or town using their police and their court to challenge this legal practice anywhere near my brothers house in metro Detroit where I'll be living, let me know, and I will spear head an effort to challenge them.
One thing which we haven't discussed much is that college students seem to be into this. To my knowledge it won't nullify the community college act. Thus, rather than a 6 month suspension of a students CPL, a 500 dollar fine and expulsion, a student will ONLY face expulsion from a government run college they spent a whole lot more than 500 dollars to be at. That is in my opinion far from a victory for college students. If my requests to pull the plug are falling on deaf ears, but you want to try to improve it where you can, this would be a good issue to address very thoroughly.
If I ghost write legislation or help someone write some, will it pass? I don't know, but I do know that I'm in this game for the long haul. For years I have mostly laid low, not really caring about getting a spotlight on me and the cause, just using my brain power to help where I can. Living somewhere I don't want to be for over a year has made me realize this is a mistake. I'm in this to see it through. I don't know how long it will take, or if I'll live to see my libertarian gun goals realized, but I do know I will be doing everything I can to take any steps I can to reach towards them. As Steve Jobs said, don't ever settle, don't live someone else's life.
Something I have believed from the very beginning of my participation with open carrying is that we are a group of volunteers who are neither required to or prohibited from doing anything legal. When we want help with a project, those who wish to volunteer do so. Does that mean we should have all encompassing respect for each others opinions? Hell no! Only by arguing things out will we come to a conclusion that will resemble anything desirable.
So all that said, I've made my opinions very clear, so has everyone else. I don't think there is much more to discuss.
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TheQ
Regular Member
See People V Watkins. It's discussed on MGO's legal beagle in the "Gun Rights Litigation" sub-forum.
People V Watkins could make OC in a PFZ with a CPL illegal. I encourage everyone to go read that thread.
Link: http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=136331
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stainless1911
Banned
One problem I had when my CPL got suspended for OCing at that school, was that the judge indicated that the AGO was only an OPINION, and that it did not necessarily exempt you. Melissa will tell you the same thing.
Much later down the road, Louis Feurino, the attorney for Waterford Police, indicated that since 425o was written after 237a, that 425o Quote: "Wins" over the previous statute. Of course we know that this is bull, but that IS the SOP that they are using at this time concerning the Waterford School District, and likely, all other PFZs in their jurisdiction.
Someone like Aqualina would find you guilty, and let you take it to the higher courts at your expense.
Much later down the road, Louis Feurino, the attorney for Waterford Police, indicated that since 425o was written after 237a, that 425o Quote: "Wins" over the previous statute. Of course we know that this is bull, but that IS the SOP that they are using at this time concerning the Waterford School District, and likely, all other PFZs in their jurisdiction.
Someone like Aqualina would find you guilty, and let you take it to the higher courts at your expense.
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detroit_fan
Regular Member
All the more reason SB59 needs to pass