Are the attitudes of LEOs changing towards Open Carriers?

MSG Laigaie · Nov 21, 2012

http://www.policeone.com/investigations/articles/6042000-Video-Officers-quiz-Pa-man-over-open-carry/

First the link.
I watched the video first to get the full perspective of the incident. Then I went to the comments, expecting the usual rants against OCers and why don't you cover if you have a permit BS. I was pleasantly surprised to see them policing their own. Are the times changing? Are LEOs who support the Law becoming the norm? I think "good works", on both sides, is becoming successful in improving attitudes.

WOD · Nov 21, 2012

I don't think their attitude towards open carriers is changing, I think they're finally getting the message from the higher ups, to stop getting their departments sued. The ones who were posting favorably to any LAC carrying or possessing firearms, are just of the same mindset that we are. Then you had the MY SAFETY guys, and the opinion enforcers, jumping in, and those two classes are the problem. I was happy to see that there were quite a few posts that said "as officers we should know the laws we're able to enforce."

Batousaii · Nov 21, 2012

I would think so..

- Somthing to concider too, as cutbacks in LE and our resession continue, the Leo numbers decrease, crimials become more common place, who are the Leo going to look towards to "keep their back" if sh!t goes south? - likely the good Leo is realising it will be the common good citizen who is armed that will be rushing in where libies fear to tread to back them up... because their other budies will be minutes away when seconds count. Keeping the common armed citizen at odds with them is not in their best interest, and I believe this is finally being realised, at least by some of the good ones.
- of course i might be lucky, and it might just be that the ones i know are pro-OC and pro-good citizen too.

(Note: i did not read link, just replying to the poster himself).

Freedom1Man · Nov 21, 2012

The first question is, "What is your Social Security Number?"

What law requires a citizen to even HAVE a SSN in the first place?

Edit...

WOW theses cops are idiots!

They need their asses sued off.

Jeff Hayes · Nov 21, 2012

Why talk to them much less argue with them? Why did he tell them the make, model and caliber of his pistol? Simply shut up except to ask if you are free to go or if you are being detained.

It was hilarious that 5 minutes into it the Cops tell him to put his hands on his head.

The Cop committed battery I would have complained about being touched to emphasize the officers opinion.

Looks like it turned out well for him.

aa1911 · Nov 21, 2012

Oh no, the hollow point bullet scare.... cause if he only had FMJ's, those are TOTALLY safe, not deadly at all. Just a 165gn chunk of lead and copper going 1100 fps, nothing to worry about...

The more videos like that I see, the more I read and learn on here. I've yet to have any negative LE encounters but I want to be armed with more than my sidearms when I do.

Love how the officer goes into the 'tactical' reasons why he shouldn't OC. Thanks dude...

amlevin · Nov 21, 2012

Batousaii said:
- Somthing to concider too, as cutbacks in LE and our resession continue, the Leo numbers decrease, crimials become more common place, who are the Leo going to look towards to "keep their back" if sh!t goes south? - likely the good Leo is realising it will be the common good citizen who is armed that will be rushing in where libies fear to tread to back them up... because their other budies will be minutes away when seconds count. Keeping the common armed citizen at odds with them is not in their best interest, and I believe this is finally being realised, at least by some of the good ones.
- of course i might be lucky, and it might just be that the ones i know are pro-OC and pro-good citizen too.

(Note: i did not read link, just replying to the poster himself).

Hopefully people will use some common sense before they "come running up to help a LEO with a gun in their hand".

Jeff Hayes · Nov 21, 2012

amlevin said:
Hopefully people will use some common sense before they "come running up to help a LEO with a gun in their hand".

A big + 1 on that.

Running up to a LEO with a gun in hand in a SHTF situation could get you shot by the LEO you are attempting to help not to mention the very high chance of his LEO buddies that are right behind you responding to his/her call for help shooting you and then asking questions.

MKEgal · Nov 21, 2012

I'd seen the multi-page PAFOA discussion of this video,
and the several-page discussion here,
but it's interesting to see LEO perspective.
Some are decent, others not so much. :uhoh:

I learned long time ago when I butted heads with a lawyer and lost. Now I learn the laws and refuse to be baited. With computers in our vehicles and smart phones, no reason not to know the law.

I'm curious why s/he hadn't learned them in the first place. Isn't that part of the job description?

Common sense would dictate that the overwhelming majority of permit holders ARE NOT a danger to us. We do not need to perpetuate [the] notion that everyone who carries a gun, who is not a police officer, wants to shoot someone. In many states the training received by these holders, exceed that of most police officers

Your safety, my safety, our safety, does NOT trump the Constitution of the United States of America and the Rights it affords to Citizens of this Nation. Don't like it, GET A DIFFERENT JOB.

I like this one:

this officer needs to go sell flowers. I have made my share of mistakes on the street but this is bad and it only gets worse when the officer realizes he is in the wrong.

the officers should be made to sit through the firearms revised code portion of the local police academy with all the other newbies

Then there are the wrong-headed people:

If I contact a person for any reason and he has immediate access to a deadly weapon, that weapon is going to be in my hands until the end of the contact, period. It's not about ignorance of the law or whether the person has the right to carry, but about MY SAFETY

:cuss:

i have ALWAYS been against open carry. this is just one reason why it's a bad idea

Bad/ignorant cops are a reason why I shouldn't worship, meet with friends, vote, or exercise any other Constitutionally-protected civil right?

get informed and educated regarding the carry laws in your area. It will make it look allot less stupid and as we all know many citizens out there "bait" us on purpose. This video and others are proof of that.

:banghead: How exactly is it 'baiting' to walk to the barbershop for a haircut?

Why push the officer. IF an officer would have asked me to cover it up then I would "just cooperate to graduate." There was no need to start the confrontation in the first place

The guy filming was clearly baiting LEOs by open carrying when he had a valid CCW permit... The citizen needs to just cover it up and quit needlessly challenging LEOs

Confrontation & challenge? That would be done by the cops, right? Maybe those posters don't realize that it was the officers who created the problem by stopping the citizen who was going about his lawful business, not bothering anyone.
____________________________________
Proverbs 27:12
A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions.
The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.

sudden valley gunner · Nov 21, 2012

MKEgal said:
:banghead: How exactly is it 'baiting' to walk to the barbershop for a haircut?

It's not. Just like it's not baiting when I exercise any other fundamental right I have that others oppose.

Batousaii · Nov 21, 2012

amlevin said:
Hopefully people will use some common sense before they "come running up to help a LEO with a gun in their hand".

- Yes i hope so too... proper aproach is paramount. I am mostly saying, it could come to that eventually, where we dont really have a choice. Things are rocky but survivable today, but if we keep going along this trend of failing government, recession / depression, and cutting infrastructure to shreds, then at sompoint the we will be left to fend for our selves. I am really not the conspiracy type, but it the future is not going in a good direction currently. Criminals seem to have too much room to breath, and the cops are out numbered and out gunned. "We the People" may have to be more asertive in the near future if a course correction on this path to self consumption is not changed. It's a sad state of affairs, and

davidmcbeth · Nov 22, 2012

WOD said:
I don't think their attitude towards open carriers is changing, I think they're finally getting the message from the higher ups, to stop getting their departments sued. "

You idiots are costing us the ability for us to buy our toys .... stop it!

Difdi · Nov 23, 2012

Orphan said:
A big + 1 on that.

Running up to a LEO with a gun in hand in a SHTF situation could get you shot by the LEO you are attempting to help not to mention the very high chance of his LEO buddies that are right behind you responding to his/her call for help shooting you and then asking questions.

On the one hand, I can understand the tendency to see only enemies when the SHTF. On the other hand, assuming everyone around you is hostile and acting accordingly in absence of any evidence isn't justifiable.

To be honest, if I saw a friend of mine running to help a cop and get gunned down, my own natural response would be to put two rounds into the shooter. If someone in uniform shot someone I know in those circumstances, my first thought would be "police impersonator, take him down."

Citizen · Nov 23, 2012

Freedom1Man said:
The first question is, "What is your Social Security Number?"

What law requires a citizen to even HAVE a SSN in the first place?

Edit...

WOW theses cops are idiots!

They need their asses sued off.

I think there are federal privacy laws about SSNs. I have this vague recollection that a government agency has to disclose things like what statutory authority allows them to ask for the SSN, how it will be used, and whether its disclosure is voluntary or mandatory.

ETA: Hey! I was right. Scroll down to section 3 here: https://www.privacyrights.org/fs/fs10-ssn.htm

Freedom1Man · Nov 23, 2012

Citizen said:
I think there are federal privacy laws about SSNs. I have this vague recollection that a government agency has to disclose things like what statutory authority allows them to ask for the SSN, how it will be used, and whether its disclosure is voluntary or mandatory.

ETA: Hey! I was right. Scroll down to section 3 here: https://www.privacyrights.org/fs/fs10-ssn.htm

My point is that you're not required to even HAVE on in the first place.

Jeff Hayes · Nov 23, 2012

Difdi said:
On the one hand, I can understand the tendency to see only enemies when the SHTF. On the other hand, assuming everyone around you is hostile and acting accordingly in absence of any evidence isn't justifiable.

To be honest, if I saw a friend of mine running to help a cop and get gunned down, my own natural response would be to put two rounds into the shooter. If someone in uniform shot someone I know in those circumstances, my first thought would be "police impersonator, take him down."

You can have my six any day. Having a gun in your hand would make a big difference on if you were perceived as a threat or as help especially for the LEOs that are just rolling up to a chaotic scene.

I jumped in the middle of a fight that a Cop was loosing badly and ended up on the ground cuffed when his buddies showed up a minute or two later. I will never help a Cop again unless it is a life or death situation but that stems from what happened after they knew I was a good guy and had helped the down officer not from being cuffed and put on the ground.

amlevin · Nov 23, 2012

Citizen said:
I think there are federal privacy laws about SSNs. I have this vague recollection that a government agency has to disclose things like what statutory authority allows them to ask for the SSN, how it will be used, and whether its disclosure is voluntary or mandatory.

ETA: Hey! I was right. Scroll down to section 3 here: https://www.privacyrights.org/fs/fs10-ssn.htm

You are right but sometimes it's a matter of giving up the number and having ID verified immediately rather than sitting in a Police Station while your identity is verified by other means.

The use of the SSN has infiltrated just about all levels of Government for ID even though it was originally prohibited. Check out he list of where it can be used:

http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/app/ans...ements-to-provide-your-social-security-number

Oneof them people often run across is: "States to administer any tax, general public assistance, motor vehicle or drivers license law within its jurisdiction;"

More likely than not you will have a choice if there is a question of ID when interacting with a LEO. Give up your SSN or sit in a holding cell until your ID is verified.

For people who are often mistaken for others (in the NICS Records), giving a SSN on the 4473 can often make the difference between a quick purchase or a delayed one.

sudden valley gunner · Nov 23, 2012

Orphan said:
You can have my six any day. Having a gun in your hand would make a big difference on if you were perceived as a threat or as help especially for the LEOs that are just rolling up to a chaotic scene.

I jumped in the middle of a fight that a Cop was loosing badly and ended up on the ground cuffed when his buddies showed up a minute or two later. I will never help a Cop again unless it is a life or death situation but that stems from what happened after they knew I was a good guy and had helped the down officer not from being cuffed and put on the ground.

Isn't that the thing...I often have less problem with the misunderstanding and the stuffed and cuffed , it's the Balderdash they continue with after the incident.

DocWalker · Nov 23, 2012

amlevin said:
You are right but sometimes it's a matter of giving up the number and having ID verified immediately rather than sitting in a Police Station while your identity is verified by other means.

The use of the SSN has infiltrated just about all levels of Government for ID even though it was originally prohibited. Check out he list of where it can be used:

http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/app/ans...ements-to-provide-your-social-security-number

Oneof them people often run across is: "States to administer any tax, general public assistance, motor vehicle or drivers license law within its jurisdiction;"

More likely than not you will have a choice if there is a question of ID when interacting with a LEO. Give up your SSN or sit in a holding cell until your ID is verified.

For people who are often mistaken for others (in the NICS Records), giving a SSN on the 4473 can often make the difference between a quick purchase or a delayed one.

Yes but sitting in a cell for a few hours can make you a weathy person. Once you get done suing the department, city, and others for crushing your rights.

amlevin · Nov 24, 2012

DocWalker said:
Yes but sitting in a cell for a few hours can make you a weathy person. Once you get done suing the department, city, and others for crushing your rights.

Please cite a case where someone who refused to provide ID, was then detained until their ID was verified, and became wealthy? I'm only talking about instances where providing ID would be required by statute, not just a LEO walking up to you and demanding it.

Are the attitudes of LEOs changing towards Open Carriers?

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