Is BATF already creating a gun registry?

Fallschirjmäger · Jun 19, 2013

[Raises hand hesitantly] Mr. Walking Wolf, just where are they getting these credit card receipts from?

I know for a fact that our receipts aren't transmitted to the government directly. Is it the bank, do they go over the hundreds of receipts they get by hand to find the one that says "Colt SAA SN:1235656" or "Calico LWS SN: 12-3456"? Do you believe each bank has a list of the scores of manufacturer's around the world that export to the USA?

Is it the credit card companies themselves? Do they have some automated reader that inspects each reported purchase and correlates the name of the item with the known list of gun manufacturers worldwide?

Please tell us how this works, I've been curious my entire life.

Oh, and just how does this work for those that pay cash in order to receive the 3% discount? How do they get away with That?

p.s. Speaking of online inventory, our distributor has had a balance of "0" for just about every rifle, pistol, and shotgun since December, it hardly even pays to check. Yet we still receive shipments of firearms of them. Gonna be hard to 'match up' stuff when the quantity-on-hand is zero, don'cha think?

WalkingWolf · Jun 19, 2013

Fallschirmjäger said:
[Raises hand hesitantly] Mr. Walking Wolf, just where are they getting these credit card receipts from?

I know for a fact that our receipts aren't transmitted to the government directly. Is it the bank, do they go over the hundreds of receipts they get by hand to find the one that says "Colt SAA SN:1235656" or "Calico LWS SN: 12-3456"? Do you believe each bank has a list of the scores of manufacturer's around the world that export to the USA?

Is it the credit card companies themselves? Do they have some automated reader that inspects each reported purchase and correlates the name of the item with the known list of gun manufacturers worldwide?

Please tell us how this works, I've been curious my entire life.

Oh, and just how does this work for those that pay cash in order to receive the 3% discount? How do they get away with That?

p.s. Speaking of online inventory, our distributor has had a balance of "0" for just about every rifle, pistol, and shotgun since December, it hardly even pays to check. Yet we still receive shipments of firearms of them. Gonna be hard to 'match up' stuff when the quantity-on-hand is zero, don'cha think?

All credit card transactions in this present day either go over the internet or the phone. And they do not need to know what guns you have just that you have guns. But please go on believing that the present scandals are make believe.

Fallschirjmäger · Jun 19, 2013

WalkingWolf said:
All credit card transactions in this present day either go over the internet or the phone. And they do not need to know what guns you have just that you have guns. But please go on believing that the present scandals are make believe.

Yes, they do. But that still does not answer the question.
Are you saying that A) the credit card companies are Reporting these transactions, or B) the the government is intercepting these communications?

zack991 · Jun 19, 2013

Fallschirmjäger said:
Yes, they do. But that still does not answer the question.
Are you saying that A) the credit card companies are Reporting these transactions, or B) the the government is intercepting these communications?

Ask you shall receive.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/report-nsa-credit-card-transactions-92390.html

Credit card transactions are among the activities that have been monitored by the National Security Agency as part of its effort to target possible terrorists, the Wall Street Journal reported Thursday night.

The report does not identify the credit card companies involved and says it is unclear if the monitoring of transactions is ongoing.

The news about the credit card transactions follows reports from earlier in the day that the NSA has had access to the internet servers of large technology companies, giving the agency the ability, through a program nicknamed PRISM, to track e-mails and web searches.

http://theweek.com/article/index/245311/sources-nsa-sucks-in-data-from-50-companies
Analysts at the National Security Agency can now secretly access real-time user data provided by as many as 50 American companies, ranging from credit rating agencies to internet service providers, two government officials familiar with the arrangements said.
Several of the companies have provided records continuously since 2006, while others have given the agency sporadic access, these officials said. These officials disclosed the number of participating companies in order to provide context for a series of disclosures about the NSA's domestic collection policies. The officials, contacted independently, repeatedly said that "domestic collection" does not mean that the target is based in the U.S. or is a U.S. citizen; rather, it refers only to the origin of the data.

The Wall Street Journal reported today that U.S. credit card companies had also provided customer information. The officials would not disclose the names of the companies because, they said, doing so would provide U.S. enemies with a list of companies to avoid. They declined to confirm the list of participants in an internet monitoring program revealed by the Washington Post and the Guardian, but both confirmed that the program existed.

zack991 · Jun 19, 2013

Nightmare said:
Good find! Thanks.

No problem the media is not reporting close to even half of what they are collecting data on. The complete collection of EVERYTHING, if you spend five mins doing a simple search what they are stealing from the people it is a unholy MASSIVE breach of privacy. This should get you started.

FBI admits to using drones on US soil.
http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/19/f...ones-for-domestic-surveillance/#ixzz2WgRYrC6E

Big Brother Alert: Cameras in the Cable Box to Monitor TV viewers
Published on June 19th, 2013
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...meras-cable-box-monitor-tv-vie/#ixzz2Wf4Dhn3K

NSA Built Back Door In All Windows Software by 1999
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/06/microsoft-programmed-in-nsa-backdoor-in-windows-by-1999.html
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2013/0...nto-most-popular-consumer-program-before-911/

NSA spying flap extends to contents of U.S. phone calls without warrants
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-5...istening-to-u.s-phone-calls-without-warrants/

PRISM Class-Action Lawsuit Filed: $20B, Injunction Sought Against 'Complicit' Companies and Officials

http://www.usnews.com/news/newsgram...ght-against-complicit-companies-and-officials

NSA memo pushed to 'rethink' 4th Amendment

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/nsa-memo-4th-amendment-92416.html

U.S., British intelligence mining data from nine U.S. Internet companies in broad secret program

http://www.washingtonpost.com/inves...ebf-11e2-8845-d970ccb04497_story.html?hpid=z1

Anonymous have leaked a treasure trove of NSA documents
http://gizmodo.com/anonymous-just-leaked-a-trove-of-nsa-documents-511854773

eye95 · Jun 19, 2013

Still, none of this establishes that they are building a national gun registry.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>

Grapeshot · Jun 19, 2013

eye95 said:
Not saying it is OK that they are "monitoring credit card transactions," it isn't. However, what does that mean???

If it means that they are collecting actual individual transaction data and saving potential gun purchases, then, yes, they could be building a registry of potential gun owners (not a gun registry). But, if they are collecting only aggregate data or pattern data, then they can't build such a registry.

So, what does it mean? Put up or shut up. Otherwise, this is just another bit of fuzzy paranoia also known as a conspiracy theory.

WalkingWolf · Jun 19, 2013

And it does not establish they are not, what it does is establish they are mining every single bit of data they can. And as any agency they will put that data together to get whatever they want. The fact that they claim they are not is good indication they are. But please by all means stomp your feet, thump your chest, it does not change that government is lying, and abusing rights. If there is any data on gun purchases, they have it.

WalkingWolf · Jun 19, 2013

eye95 said:
Up to your old editing tricks to "win" a discussion again. Using one's power to benefit himself is pretty much what folks here don't like about the actions of many government agents. Maybe you should cogitate on that.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>

I find it disrespectful that you keep attacking the moderator, I ask you politely to stop. But I am also borrowing your tactic and reporting.

WalkingWolf · Jun 19, 2013

And you cannot prove they are not, but we can prove that the feds have been data mining on every single piece of data they can get their hands on.

zack991 · Jun 19, 2013

DHS has been caught being involved with this here, I am positive they are doing this else where

"On March 4, Missouri Lt. Gov. Peter Kinder held a press conference and claimed the Missouri Department of Revenue has been working with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security "to install new hardware and software to obtain data on Missouri citizens and transfer this information to DHS and unnamed third parties.""

This information gathering is allegedly tied to a backdoor gun registry in that state.

On March 25, state senator Kurt Shaefer (R-Dist. 19) subpoenaed the Missouri Department of Revenue to force them to hand over documents shared between them and DHS or FEMA, as well as between them and the American Association for Motor Vehicle Administrators and Morpho Trust USA, relating to Missouri "driver's license and ID information."

In a statement to Breitbart News, Shaefer said: "This is one of the most appalling abuses of privacy rights I have encountered in state government. I can not and will not allow unelected bureaucrats to erode the rights of Missourians."

Both Kinder and Shaefer are looking at whether Missouri state laws are being usurped to allow a collection of information--including concealed carry permit information--to be passed to the federal government under the Real ID Act of 2005.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Govern...Possible-Backdoor-Gun-Registry-In-Their-State

Senator Kurt Shaefer subpoenaed the the Missouri Department of Revenue to produce all documents between the Department of Revenue and any federal agency, including but not limited to, the Department of Homeland Security or FEMA, regarding driver’s license and ID information of Missouri citizens.

Senator Shaefer said this about the suspected privacy abuses, “This is one of the most appalling abuses of privacy rights I have encountered in state government. I can not and will not allow unelected bureaucrats to erode the rights of Missourians.”

Here’s a screengrab of the subpoena request:

After that read this will make you happy. "Napolitano wants NSA-like hiring authority for DHS cyber workforce"
http://www.federalnewsradio.com/473...like-hiring-authority-for-DHS-cyber-workforce

Mixael · Jun 19, 2013

May I ask a question concerning the credit card receipts that are (allegedly) being used to build a firearms database/registry?

In my experience, when your card is run, the place of business and the amount are all that the card issuer gets, not a breakdown of what you buy. How would this POSSIBLY enable "them" to build a registry, if they don't know that $500 you put on your card was for a gun, or maybe it was a bow and case.....or a safe. At best it would give them an IDEA of who was buying stuff at a gun shop. (And do they go through each and every one of the receipts from a place like Dick's or Bass Pro? How do they know WHICH receipts to store?)

Just asking.

WalkingWolf · Jun 20, 2013

Every time you go to the grocery store and use your card, every item is used for data collection. This is nothing new, this information has been used by marketing for a longggggggg time. Not only that, every search on Google, every internet purchase the information passes through the system. Every single warranty that is registered goes through a system of wires and fiber optics. The same computer that rings up your purchase processes your card. In fact there was a problem for a time with some of the credit card companies refusing to complete transactions on (drum roll) GUNS. I can go to MY account and revue my purchase history at anytime, and it lists what I bought because what I buy IS insured. This has been widely advertised by American Express for YEARS.

Mixael · Jun 20, 2013

Then I'm glad I don't buy guns where you seem to. I use a couple of mom and pop stores here, and the receipt is handwritten, and the CC transaction is amount and store only...nothing else. * (Please note that I am NOT arguing that some places, like Wal Mart, Best Buy, etc, collect as much info as possible. That particular data mining thing is old news.)

Perhaps, however, I asked the question wrong...How good a registry could "they" build, with only spotty and incomplete information? For example, the two stores here that I use, the people that pay in cash, that kind of thing. And if such a registry WAS being built, it really wouldn't be very much use, would it? Now, I don't doubt for a second that the ATF and other alphabet agencies DREAM of getting just that kind of database set up, but including every single person in this country, and updated in real time. I just don't think that using the receipts for building a gun registry are sufficient to do any good (from the government's perspective).

I know, the gov has such a skewed perspective that it's kinda dumb to try to look through their eyes, but I already said it and I ain't gonna edit it out.

*(Please note that I am NOT arguing that some places, like Wal Mart, Best Buy, etc, collect as much info as possible. That particular data mining thing is old news.)

ETA: read your post, replied, THEN noticed you had said AmEx. Believe it or not, I had totally forgotten about them, and was thinking only of Visa, MC and Discover. (Not saying they don't do it, btw.) When I saw AmEx, I remembered that it HAS been a "selling point" of theirs for a very long time. I had somethign else to put here but forgot....I should get some sleep and come back tomorrow.)

MatieA · Jun 20, 2013

And for those of us that do NOT buy ANY guns from a gun shop or store of any kind. Well, those transactions are going to be kind of hard to track dont'cha think? Even when I buy my reloading materials, I pay CASH. AND for the stores that ask for a zip code, you think I give mine?

Grapeshot · Jun 20, 2013

MatieA said:
And for those of us that do NOT buy ANY guns from a gun shop or store of any kind. Well, those transactions are going to be kind of hard to track dont'cha think? Even when I buy my reloading materials, I pay CASH. AND for the stores that ask for a zip code, you think I give mine?

Tin foil hat and hip boots required beyond this point.

So by posting here and describing how you avoid detection/tracking you thereby attract the attention you wish to circumvent. Ding, ding, zing - add another one to the non-existant, only in our imagination, watch list :lol:

Next case.

zack991 · Jun 20, 2013

What's a few more I know I am on the "constitutional defend list", "Veterans list", "gun owners list", "anti big brother list". I am missing any, I was told I was on a few lists when I was traveling, "your name caused a few different burps in our system when we check your background."--DHS official at Cleveland international airport.

WalkingWolf · Jun 20, 2013

MatieA said:
And for those of us that do NOT buy ANY guns from a gun shop or store of any kind. Well, those transactions are going to be kind of hard to track dont'cha think? Even when I buy my reloading materials, I pay CASH. AND for the stores that ask for a zip code, you think I give mine?

Do you have a concealed carry permission slip? That's all they need to know you probably have guns. The rest of the information they can figure out while they search your home, vehicles, person, and property. You people keep thinking this is about guns, it is not. It is about control, and controlling people. The goal is total elimination of guns for the people. They only need to know you have them.

CA has a team that does exactly the above, there is thread here somewhere on it. They go to houses in force to retrieve guns for people who show up on their no guns list. So far they do not use force but trick the occupants of the homes into a search, and seize their guns.

rushcreek2 · Jun 20, 2013

No citation is needed to support the obvious conclusion that all agencies under the U.S. DOJ given it's current administration by AG Eric Holder will leave no stone undisturbed in its quest to harvest, synthesize , and correlate ANY available data in order to produce an intelligence product which can be utilized to deny the RTKBA to as many U.S. citizens as possible.

rushcreek2 · Jun 20, 2013

It's a nuance of that old concept known as opinion of which most of us have a few of them laying around.

Is BATF already creating a gun registry?

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