attempted gas station robbery

F350 · Nov 7, 2013

skidmark said:
I half agree with WW and half respectfully disagree withh both him and the OP.

Guy has on what reasonably appears to be a bomb and makes a statement that he will detonate it. OP has his handgun drawn and hopefully is aiming for a cranial shot.

When the BG says "...and I will blow it up" that's an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm. You are already drawn.

Not to play keyboard kommando, but if that is not a near-perfect example of a good shoot needing to be taken I do not know what else the OP needed before pressing the trigger.

My very considered opinion is that guns are not props to demonstrate that we are serious about things we say like "Put your hands up" or "Get up off that naked lady". Like warning shots, warning statements only give the BG time to react and change your OODA loop. To put it more plainly, if you are going to shoot, shoot. If you don't have a reason to shoot and don't intend to shoot, your handgun should have stayed in the holster. It's the hesitation that will get you killed.

Only the BG with the phoney bomb is responsible for the conseuences of a GG taking him at his word.

stay safe.

Somebody check the temp in hell, I agree 100% with skid

WalkingWolf · Nov 7, 2013

hmbiohazard said:
in the heat of the moment we make split second descisions. although it more than likely would have been a justified shooting. i was contemplating the fact that something didnt seem right about the guy. the threat was there. but i didnt feel it was a legit bomb. i think it was more of a prop to rob the store. granted its not everyday you see someone in detroit with what appears to be bomb strapped to his chest. i was aiming at his head because obviously if it was a real bomb it may have set it off. also he did have a switch in his hand and i felt that even if i do take a shot it could still potentially go off. was best to let the authorities deal with it. or clean up the mess. i felt if he was serious about blowing it up he would have done so soon as i confronted him with a loaded handgun pointed at him. the fact he didnt made me feel it was less likey to be a real bomb and i just needed to keep him detained until the police arrived on scene. since the clerk hit a panic alarm, they probably didnt have any idea what they were walking inot and thats why they reacted how they did when the find me with my gun drawn and pointed at someone in the store. int he end everyone walked away from the incident without injury and the BG ended up where he belonged. i had a choice to make and i did and it saved one person from losing their life.

So you did not believe the bomb was real, so there was no credible threat. Had the bomb been real, YOU were the threat, in fact if I had been there YOU would have been the one I would have been drawing down on. Think about it, you would blow everybody up to stick your nose in where it did not concern you. You were not being robbed, instead of getting out you injected yourself into the situation.

Again the purpose of being a LAC is not to be a cop or a hero, IMO.

eye95 · Nov 7, 2013

I have nothing to add on-topic. I would merely be echoing what others have written.

I just wanted to say that whitespace and capitalization make posts a helluva lot easier to read.

CT Barfly · Nov 7, 2013

eye95 said:
I have nothing to add on-topic. I would merely be echoing what others have written.

I just wanted to say that whitespace and capitalization make posts a helluva lot easier to read.

best advice in the thread, lol.

CT Barfly · Nov 7, 2013

WalkingWolf said:
So you did not believe the bomb was real, so there was no credible threat. Had the bomb been real, YOU were the threat, in fact if I had been there YOU would have been the one I would have been drawing down on. Think about it, you would blow everybody up to stick your nose in where it did not concern you. You were not being robbed, instead of getting out you injected yourself into the situation.

Again the purpose of being a LAC is not to be a cop or a hero, IMO.

I mostly agree with you...however...most of the time lethal force is allowed when SBI is reasonably imminent..whether directed to yourself or someone else.

WalkingWolf · Nov 7, 2013

CT Barfly said:
I mostly agree with you...however...most of the time lethal force is allowed when SBI is reasonably imminent..whether directed to yourself or someone else.

He clearly admits that he believed the bomb was not real, hence NO THREAT. On top of that if the bomb was real he was endangering everyone in the store to play hero. I would have defended myself if I was in that store, and I do not mean shooting the robber. His actions while they were not charged were indeed reckless, he was playing cop.

Primus · Nov 7, 2013

Wait. Stores don't get robbed when OCers are in there, the bad guys don't like guns. :lol:

On a serious note. Everyone know what this is? Monday Quarterbacking.

When the SHTF you don't know what your going to do, hence many many hrs of training you need (that most guys don't do). And how many guys go to the range and train for a guy with a bomb? Been a long time since I have (military).

Shoot/ No Shoot scenarios are rarely easy decisions. All I can say is, I think it was a situation where you were good either way. If you dropped him, obviously you had reasonable fear for your life at initial encounter guys said he was going to blow you up and your not EOD so you believed him. You decided NOT to shoot and the guy was bluffing so good on you. You stay out of legal trouble, but the guy gets to live another day to rob some place else, which sucks.

Either way, good example.

WalkingWolf · Nov 7, 2013

I know I am not going to risk my freedom, and my life for somebody other than my family or myself. I am no longer a cop, and IMHO pulling a gun on a suspect with a bomb would downright dumb and reckless even for a police officer. I would have left the store and called 911, I do not inject myself into stuff that is none of my business.

Wanna be a hero, go to the academy, and get paid for it.

CT Barfly · Nov 8, 2013

WalkingWolf said:
He clearly admits that he believed the bomb was not real, hence NO THREAT. On top of that if the bomb was real he was endangering everyone in the store to play hero. I would have defended myself if I was in that store, and I do not mean shooting the robber. His actions while they were not charged were indeed reckless, he was playing cop.

the nice thing about reasonableness is that it is decided by a jury.

OP might have been an "idiosyncratic thinker" and unfazed by an apparent bomb...meaning he can still claim that it was reasonable to think the threat was credible.

after all, if he didn't think it was real he might not have drawn.

skidmark · Nov 8, 2013

hmbiohazard said:
i knew my pistol was fine, it was assigned to me as my duty weapon since i was on the way to work i had it with me as i always do. i knew them running the serial would not turn anything up

Are you saying, without actually saying it, that you are sworn LEO of some sort?

If so, that changes the dynamic opf your behavior.

If not, everything remains as before.

stay safe.

jeffrey-r · Nov 8, 2013

skidmark said:
Are you saying, without actually saying it, that you are sworn LEO of some sort?

If so, that changes the dynamic opf your behavior.

Exactly. If he's LEO or ex-LEO then pulling your gun and saying "Freeze sucka!" is a lot more reasonable than Joe Citizen trying to do the same thing in the same situation.

To the OP's story, I was cringing over it too, Monday Morning QBing or not.

hmbiohazard · Nov 8, 2013

jeffrey-r said:
Exactly. If he's LEO or ex-LEO then pulling your gun and saying "Freeze sucka!" is a lot more reasonable than Joe Citizen trying to do the same thing in the same situation.

To the OP's story, I was cringing over it too, Monday Morning QBing or not.

i am a fugitive recovery agent. my firm assigned us pistols for carry when on a recovery of a bail jumper. basically it was treated as a p2p transfer so i own it. i was required to obtain a cpl to carry it as well as be required to carry it as long as it is in a legal environment. obviously i dont carry in courts as well as the other prohibited areas under michigan law detroit isnt exactly the safest city and most criminals have guns as they are easily obtained on the streets illegally

skidmark · Nov 8, 2013

hmbiohazard said:
i am a fugitive recovery agent. my firm assigned us pistols for carry when on a recovery of a bail jumper. basically it was treated as a p2p transfer so i own it. i was required to obtain a cpl to carry it as well as be required to carry it as long as it is in a legal environment. obviously i dont carry in courts as well as the other prohibited areas under michigan law detroit isnt exactly the safest city and most criminals have guns as they are easily obtained on the streets illegally

Your use of "on duty" in this case is exceedingly confusing, and I have my suspicions that you did so intentionally. You were headed to your job which has nothing to do with enforcing the laws of the city/state/country.

All of that aside, I come back to my thesis that you should be intending, with no question or hesitation, to use lethal force if your handgun comes out of the holster. There are times when the sudden presence of lethal force can persuade a BG to cease their threat of imminent death or serious bodily injury. But you clearly state that you did not reasonably apprehend that such imminent threat existed.

As for your assertion that your company assigning you a firearm constituted a P2P transfer and as such you own the firearm - I encourage you to check with the HR department about that, as well as the BATFE. That you need, by state law, a CPL to carry it, and that your employer has a policy requiring you to carry it under the conditions of your CPL does not mean the firearm is now owned by you.

stay safe.

WalkingWolf · Nov 8, 2013

Exactly Skid, carrying a firearm as a LAC has absolutely nothing to do with enforcing laws, making arrests, it has to do with self defense. And you will have to excuse me but shooting somebody with possibly a bomb is idiotic, and probably would get you and others killed. Police would not even have done what he did. The would have established a perimeter and contained the subject AT a safe distance until the subject could have been dealt with as safely as possible.

Again and I cannot make this clear enough. Had I been in the store I would have considered the OP to be the threat, and would have used the appropriate force to stop the threat. I get the impression that the OP believes because he is a fugitive recovery agent(bounty hunter) he has special powers and responsibilities. He has jack, and IMO acted dangerously.

bomber · Dec 6, 2013

I love these threads

OP tells good story

First couple of guys congratulate him on staying alive

Third guy tells him he broke the law

Fourth guy agrees and goes on about how he would have done it

OP defends humbly defends his actions

90% of following posters monday morning the poor guy to death

Late comer tells OP he's lying and challenges him to prove his story

Everyone leaves feeling pissed about something

thread successful

eye95 · Dec 6, 2013

The first responder in the thread was not congratulatory. He expressed happiness that it worked out, but his post was critical, gently so, but critical nonetheless.

The responses in this thread are generally spot-on.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>

Fallschirjmäger · Dec 6, 2013

Bernymac said:
A significant event that is a total blur, huh? Must have been traumatic. Did EOD get called in?

It's good that you still remember the type and size of what you were drinking, though. And that you still get free drinks at the same gas station for a few years that is located somewhere you don't remember since you don't live in the area.

I can't remember the date I graduated from Jump School.
I can't remember the date I got married
I can't remember the date I left the military
I can't remember the date my divorce was finalized
I can't remember the date I was hired at my job

I remember the telephone number from where I lived in 1990; 06241-594111
I remember the serial number of the Glock I sold a decade ago (the only serial number I've ever memorized and have no why idea it has stuck with me.)

So,,, what's your point exactly?

SFCRetired · Dec 6, 2013

Fallschirmjäger said:
I can't remember the date I graduated from Jump School.
I can't remember the date I got married
I can't remember the date I left the military
I can't remember the date my divorce was finalized
I can't remember the date I was hired at my job

I remember the telephone number from where I lived in 1990; 06241-594111
I remember the serial number of the Glock I sold a decade ago (the only serial number I've ever memorized and have no why idea it has stuck with me.)

So,,, what's your point exactly?

Thank you, Fallshirmjaeger! The human mind has many quirks and it is quite strange the things you probably should remember, and don't, and the things you should not remember, but do.

eye95 · Dec 6, 2013

I have a vivid memory of where I was, what I was doing, who was there, etc., when I learned JFK was assassinated.

One small problem. I know it is absolutely a false memory. But it is vivid.

Memory is a funny thing.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>

WalkingWolf · Dec 6, 2013

I remember building the pyramids...:lol:

Ohhh! and they are in Egypt BTW. At least that is what I remember.

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