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Pro-gun vs. Pro-2a

Redbaron007

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I disagree. It's possible to find something a person says distasteful, yet fully support their right to say it. Same for guns and 2A.

Using a general straw man theory doesn't apply.

We are talking about the distaste for firearms, but then fully supporting them.

Although anecdotal, those who I have met who distaste firearms, distaste the carrying/bearing of them; therefore, not supporting the 2A. The closest to them agreeing with the 2A was a complete re-write of the 2A....i.e. gun registration/permit.
 

mikeyb

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So if you are Pro-2A, can you be anti-gun?

I disagree. It's possible to find something a person says distasteful, yet fully support their right to say it. Same for guns and 2A.

Using a general straw man theory doesn't apply.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Can you be against abortion but pro-choice? Sure. I am. Because I'm a usually rational man and can distinguish from my rights and opinions from that of a woman's right to do with her body. I think money and effort should be spent on preventative measures (education) so we can avoid getting to the point where abortion is desired.

I don't like some speech, but I don't disagree with the 1A. Westboro Baptist has a right to express their thoughts, as misguided as I think they are. I don't believe someone has the ability to silence them for expressing themselves, unless it is to incite a riot or hateful action upon a person. But standing on a sidewalk with signs? Go right ahead.

Some people don't like guns. That is their preference. But not liking guns does not mean they're anti-2A. It's just not their bag, baby.
 

Redbaron007

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Again, with no offense intended, you are trying to compare unrelated items to illustrate how, but have nothing in common.....strawman discussion. The 1st Amendment is different than the 2nd; the only common ground is they are listed. Different issues. Then abortion is a whole different topic. Still not comparable.
 

ron73440

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+1 Thats the way I say it too.

You can find peoples speech disgusting and support their right to say it.

you can find guns disturbing and support peoples right to bear them. Seemed an apt analogy to me.

I agree, I am personally against many things that I believe people should have the freedom to do. There is no contradiction if freedom is your guiding principle.
 

EMNofSeattle

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So if you are Pro-2A, can you be anti-gun?

Well If I remeber, Alan Dershowitz has stated he beleives the second amendment is outdated and doesn't agree with it, but that he wants it amended instead of being chipped away because he sees the same thing being done with other rights......

I guess that's not pro-2A but he seems to respect that it is a civil right that currently exists...
 
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EMNofSeattle

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They were not carrying like that. One of them briefly held his rifle up a little to get it included in a picture, as had been done hundreds of times before without issue. It's always been recommended to carry slung on the back, but for pictures, who the hell really cares if they pull it around front... Apparently MDA does, as well as a lot of pro-gun anti-2a people, hence we arrive at the article in the OP.

I understand your point, and it is valid, but your example is not a valid one of the point you made.

the problem is though, is that there are people out there that if you suggest the way they're doing things is wrong they lash out and say you're an evil communist who doesn't like the bill of rights.....

I understand why you do the AR-15 displays, hell I even called a portland radio talk show to explain this to the host, and he responded on some tangent about how people are forcing breastfeeding in your face or something like that.... but that's another story.

However, we should be able to discuss how certain legal actions that should be legal can be done in a way that brings scorn and disrespect to your viewpoint.
 
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OC for ME

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Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Can you be against abortion but pro-choice? Sure. I am. Because I'm a usually rational man and can distinguish from my rights and opinions from that of a woman's right to do with her body. I think money and effort should be spent on preventative measures (education) so we can avoid getting to the point where abortion is desired.

I don't like some speech, but I don't disagree with the 1A. Westboro Baptist has a right to express their thoughts, as misguided as I think they are. I don't believe someone has the ability to silence them for expressing themselves, unless it is to incite a riot or hateful action upon a person. But standing on a sidewalk with signs? Go right ahead.

Some people don't like guns. That is their preference. But not liking guns does not mean they're anti-2A. It's just not their bag, baby.
A woman can murder her unborn baby, yet she is not permitted, under the law, to murder herself.

All abortion is is murder when abortion is used as a means of post "relational" contraception.

The WBBC is settled case law. They can protest where they wish, towns have "provided" safe areas for their protests. After the SCOUTS ruling this week those safe areas are a unconstitutional infringement on their 1A.

As to the op, the question is not (should not be) pro gun or pro 2A, it should be OC vs. CC. The linked article, at the end of the article, gets to what the title of his article should have been, OC vs. CC.

If you own a gun and vote for anti-gun political critters you are one of those anti-2A gun owners.
 

Redbaron007

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+1 Thats the way I say it too.

You can find peoples speech disgusting and support their right to say it.

you can find guns disturbing and support peoples right to bear them. Seemed an apt analogy to me.

Maybe a better analogy is a person who distastes all humans speaking, but supports the 1st amendment. It doesn't fit.

A person who has a distaste for firearms, doesn't want them around or available, absent LEO/Military. Owning a firearm is the exercise of the 2A. Having a distaste for firearms, but then supporting them is contradictory to each other. There are many many people who don't own a firearm, but support the 2A, they choose to not want a firearm.

To support the 2A; one has to approve of the use/carry/organization of a firearm. So how can one approve of the 2A, but have a distaste/repugnance for the very item it takes to practice the 2A? The 2A provides the RKBA; just like the 1A provides the exercise of speech via people. The practice of 1A is speech through humans; the practice of the 2A is through the ownership/use of a firearm. Removing a firearm from the equation, eliminates the 2A.
 

Redbaron007

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I agree, I am personally against many things that I believe people should have the freedom to do. There is no contradiction if freedom is your guiding principle.

The underlined is exactly correct....however, those who distaste firearms are not guided by freedoms, they are guided by control. We are not talking about someone who just doesn't like a firearm or has no desire to own one......distaste is a repugnance of them, considers them vile, hatred of them.

King Obama is prime example; he says he supports the ownership of firearms for hunting and sportsmanship; but yet his actions deem the opposite. He doesn't support the 2A; except as re-written by him.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Maybe a better analogy is a person who distastes all humans speaking, but supports the 1st amendment. It doesn't fit.

A person who has a distaste for firearms, doesn't want them around or available, absent LEO/Military. Owning a firearm is the exercise of the 2A. Having a distaste for firearms, but then supporting them is contradictory to each other. There are many many people who don't own a firearm, but support the 2A, they choose to not want a firearm.

To support the 2A; one has to approve of the use/carry/organization of a firearm. So how can one approve of the 2A, but have a distaste/repugnance for the very item it takes to practice the 2A? The 2A provides the RKBA; just like the 1A provides the exercise of speech via people. The practice of 1A is speech through humans; the practice of the 2A is through the ownership/use of a firearm. Removing a firearm from the equation, eliminates the 2A.

Good point that it may have been a better analogy, still not a straw man argument.

2A is the natural right of people to resist tyranny, firearms are not the only method.
 

Redbaron007

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Good point that it may have been a better analogy, still not a straw man argument.

2A is the natural right of people to resist tyranny, firearms are not the only method.

YES it is!! :cool: (Just kidding)

Replace the word firearms with whatever item one uses to resist tyranny....if the person distaste the item, they cannot support the 2A.
 

sudden valley gunner

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YES it is!! :cool: (Just kidding)

Replace the word firearms with whatever item one uses to resist tyranny....if the person distaste the item, they cannot support the 2A.


Sure you can fully not like an item and still support people using them and support resisting tyranny.

Penn Juliet is a strong supporter of the right to bear arms, he don't like guns much personally himself.
 

Redbaron007

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Sure you can fully not like an item and still support people using them and support resisting tyranny.

Penn Juliet is a strong supporter of the right to bear arms, he don't like guns much personally himself.

I think many are getting confused over dislike versus distaste. Dislike is understandable; distaste is a hatred/repulsiveness....distaste is almost a negative physical action. From the git-go, my contention has been over the distaste, not the dislike.
 

mikeyb

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Maybe a better analogy is a person who distastes all humans speaking, but supports the 1st amendment. It doesn't fit.

What? That doesn't even make sense.

A person who has a distaste for firearms, doesn't want them around or available, absent LEO/Military. Owning a firearm is the exercise of the 2A. Having a distaste for firearms, but then supporting them is contradictory to each other. There are many many people who don't own a firearm, but support the 2A, they choose to not want a firearm.

To support the 2A; one has to approve of the use/carry/organization of a firearm. So how can one approve of the 2A, but have a distaste/repugnance for the very item it takes to practice the 2A? The 2A provides the RKBA; just like the 1A provides the exercise of speech via people. The practice of 1A is speech through humans; the practice of the 2A is through the ownership/use of a firearm. Removing a firearm from the equation, eliminates the 2A.

Your premise is that owning firearms is the only way to support the 2A? Your definition of "support" fails on such a great level.

The underlined is exactly correct....however, those who distaste firearms are not guided by freedoms, they are guided by control. We are not talking about someone who just doesn't like a firearm or has no desire to own one......distaste is a repugnance of them, considers them vile, hatred of them.

You're misrepresenting- rather mis-defining the word "distaste" into something it isn't.
Dictionary.com:
noun1.dislike; disinclination.

2.dislike for food or drink.


verb (used with object), dis·tast·ed, dis·tast·ing.3.Archaic. to dislike.




The statement from stealthyeliminator:
Yes, in the sense that you can have a personal distaste for firearms, or a serious lack of interest, or even despise firearms, but still respect the right of individuals to keep and bear arms, along with the right and necessity for a populous to be equipped, trained, and generally prepared to defend themselves (potentially referred to as the forming of a militia).

gives an explanation on how one can support the 2A but be anti-gun.

You've refused to acknowledge the support and position to this statement. You're not "thinking out loud," you're debating semantics based on your false assumption of what is true.

As many have said before, just because you don't like it doesn't mean you can't support it.

Choosing to not exercise a right does not equal not supporting it. I work with a woman who has no desire to own a gun, but respects that people have the right to own guns- including her son.

You have a right to bear and keep arms. You have a right not to bear and keep arms. You have a right to free speech. You have a right to not exercise free speech. I don't see how we can explain it any clearer.
 

mikeyb

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Penn Juliet is a strong supporter of the right to bear arms, he don't like guns much personally himself.

+1 He's, at times, incredibly insightful. He also let a Christian evangelist talk to him at length, and while Jillet is an atheist (or agnostic?), he respected the man enough to allow the discourse to take place.
 

Redbaron007

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What? That doesn't even make sense.



Your premise is that owning firearms is the only way to support the 2A? Your definition of "support" fails on such a great level.



You're misrepresenting- rather mis-defining the word "distaste" into something it isn't.
Dictionary.com:
noun1.dislike; disinclination.

2.dislike for food or drink.


verb (used with object), dis·tast·ed, dis·tast·ing.3.Archaic. to dislike.




The statement from stealthyeliminator:


gives an explanation on how one can support the 2A but be anti-gun.

You've refused to acknowledge the support and position to this statement. You're not "thinking out loud," you're debating semantics based on your false assumption of what is true.

As many have said before, just because you don't like it doesn't mean you can't support it.

Choosing to not exercise a right does not equal not supporting it. I work with a woman who has no desire to own a gun, but respects that people have the right to own guns- including her son.

You have a right to bear and keep arms. You have a right not to bear and keep arms. You have a right to free speech. You have a right to not exercise free speech. I don't see how we can explain it any clearer.

The crux of you statement is summarized in the underlined, which validates my point....it's not about dislike or the choice to not participate....but the distaste of a firearm....

distaste + mild dislike or aversion.
[COLOR=#878787 !important]"Harry nurtured a distaste for all things athletic"[/COLOR]
synonyms:dislike for, aversion to/toward, disinclination to/toward, disapproval of,disapprobation of, disdain for, repugnance at/toward, hatred for/of, loathing


The distaste, not dislike or lack of participation, of one prevents the support of the other.

I never said you HAD to own a firearm to support the 2A...please read the beginning of the thread...it summarizes that pretty quick. So...in essence I haven't failed on such a great level.....unfortunately, comprehension of what has been said in prior comments should occur before postation [sp].

And yes, it does make sense.
 

Redbaron007

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+1 He's, at times, incredibly insightful. He also let a Christian evangelist talk to him at length, and while Jillet is an atheist (or agnostic?), he respected the man enough to allow the discourse to take place.


It has been established that most people on this forum know or have acquaintances/friends/relatives that don't care or own a firearm(s), myself included, but have no problem with the 2A. All of the ones I know, however, do not have a distaste/loath/hatred of them.

Does Penn Jiillette have a distaste/hatred/loathing of firearms? TMK, he has never made that claim.
 
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