Virginia to stop honoring some out-of-state concealed handgun permits

Anybody remember this from the top, largest P4P lobby in the nation?

" To ostentatiously brandish a semi-automatic weapon in a public place is not only "rare,"it's downright weird and certainly not a practical way to go normally about your business while being prepared to defend yourself."

"To those who are not acquainted with the dubious practice of using public displays of firearms as a means to draw attention to oneself or one's cause, it can be downright scary. "It makes folks who might normally be perfectly open-minded about firearms feel uncomfortable and question the motives of pro-gun advocates."

Then there were the CC proponents that actually attacked Washington state OCers with outrageous claims of brandishing, and muzzle sweeping who were not even there.

Permits are a plague on the right to bear arms, and the worshipers who spew lies do not deserve any respect. I have a policy of turning my back on them.

I'm curious, how many shootings in Virginia were the result of out-of-state permit holders?
Anyone know?

Shovelhead said:

I'm curious, how many shootings in Virginia were the result of out-of-state permit holders?
Anyone know?

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It is not about safety, it is about Obama, and his minions burning desire to take guns away from the public. This act by the VA AG is just his acting out because of his frustration. It is, and always has been about people control.

The problem is that permits has been sold to the public as rights, and rights cannot be restricted, or taken away at a whim. But there has been abundant warning giving that those who only believe in permits have not heeded.

My ire is not about the average person who gets a permit, it is at those rabid constitutional, and OC haters. At some that parade as they are pro gun, but actually are not, they are pro permit. I completely understand the person who does what they have to do to stay out of jail, and carry, they are not the jerks I speak of.

marshaul said:

I'm really not on y'alls side any more. I have long been effectively disenfranchised by the improper focus of even supposedly pro-gun groups on P4P. So long that I am beyond any selfless caring. I have been carrying all my adult life without any government permission, and that is unlikely to change no matter what the group of clowns in suits who pretend their "legislation" is anything more than base thuggery might enact as "law".

I'm merely amused that now, all of a sudden, everyone wants my support. Where was anybody else's over anything but your precious P4P? The future will look like the past: those desperate for government approbation will band together to seek it, and the rest of us will continue to not give two *****.

Also, privilege-clingers deserve to finally grok the difference between privilege and right. Even if they have to learn the hard way.

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You know my stance on P4P..in fact I invented the term. I'm staying low right now though. IMO we're in trouble and it's best not to have a lot of infighting.
We need numbers. We need responsible leadership but I don't think McAuliffe has even gotten started. He has another year til he's out and there's a lot of damage he can do until he's gone.

WalkingWolf said:

Anybody remember this from the top, largest P4P lobby in the nation?

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Anybody remember a thread where WalkingWolf was happy to attack the cops for shooting someone walking around with a gun in his hand. That was right up until the question was asked whether WalkingWolf wanted to claim the guy carrying in hand as "one of our own."

Anybody remember how many times certain members of this forum pile on with insults like "elite" and "idiot" any and every time there is a report of an instructor or a permit holder having some lapse in safety, or perhaps even getting arrested for forgetting they had a gun as they approached TSA security checkpoints?

Seems everyone is prone to try to distance themselves from those whose conduct they believe might reflect badly on themselves. WalkingWolf's conduct is no different than those "P4P lobbyists" he so hates. The only difference is exactly which conduct he wants to distance himself from. Long guns in hand in the Washington State legislative galley are ok in his book. But a hand gun in hand on a rural Utah road is not quite what he wants associated with himself.

WalkingWolf said:

Permits are a plague on the right to bear arms, and the worshipers who spew lies do not deserve any respect. I have a policy of turning my back on them.

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Permits have been a politically expedient stop-gap measure that have helped to prevent MILLIONS of innocent persons from falling victim to violent crime over the last 20 years. For those who can't hope to enjoy any "professional courtesies" from being retired LEOs, or whose demographics make them more prone to get searched than middle aged and aged, middle-class white guys, or who simply don't care to risk violating "gun laws" with the frequent, severe penalties attaching thereto, permits have been the only political feasible alternative for quite some time.

One is very hard pressed to find very many cases of laws being clamed down on OC as a result of permits.

The worst thing one can say is that he believes we'd have gained critical mass to move to full constitutional carry faster in the absence of permits. That is a fine theory, but impossible to prove.

I note that among the half dozen States now respecting permit-free carry to one degree or another, all but Vermont (which never outlawed concealed carry, but which retains a host of unconstitutional off-limits locations) moved from outlawing carrying (or requiring discriminatory permits) to shall issue permits before moving to permit free carry. Permits have not prevented permit-free carry. Demonstrably, they have been a successful, incremental stepping stone toward permit free carry.

It is downright hypocritical for a guy who relegates himself to carrying a cap and ball antique so as to comply with various gun bans that don't cover antiques, to look down his nose at someone who obtains and uses a permit so as to legally carry a modern firearm for self defense in locations where it would otherwise be illegal to do so. The hoop you've chosen to jump through is no less onerous, no less bowing and licking the feet of legislators, than is the hoop of getting a permit.

You've got a major chip on your shoulder and are doing the work of the gun grabbers very nicely for them: dividing gun owners into us, them, OCers, CCers, Fudds, collectors, elites, and whatever other categories you can find. That strategy of eating our own, holding in contempt those who don't practice RKBA exactly the same way we do, is what got us the '94 gun ban. Those terms--Fudds, CCers, elites, idiots, etc--used by pro-gun, pro-RKBA, pro-self-defense advocates are far more damaging than "assault weapon" or "Saturday Night Special" or "Plastic Guns" or "gun show loophole" could possible be coming from our enemies, WalkingWolf.

If you've got the courage and ability to discuss any of your political theories with any substance beyond sound bites and bumper stickers, I'm happy to engage civilly and see what evidence and logic you can present. Otherwise, you'd do far better to return to your former maturity of ignoring me completely than to make such ridiculous responses to me while trying to pretend you are ignoring me.

No need for gun grabbers when so many self-professed RKBA advocates are more than happy to once more form up into a circular firing squad.

Eagerly awaiting your posting of your favorite Janet Jackson video as your deepest rebuttal of choice.

Charles

WalkingWolf said:

The problem is that permits has been sold to the public as rights, and rights cannot be restricted, or taken away at a whim. But there has been abundant warning giving that those who only believe in permits have not heeded.

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By whom? How many have sold permits as "rights" rather than as political expediency to stay out of jail?

Your "right" to carry can and has been restricted across this nation just as readily as conditions on permits might change. Your choice to carry an antique to avoid certain laws is evidence of that.

NOTHING, except political will and power protects our right to carry. Whether it is OC or CC, ultimately our rights are protected by political will. Certainly you don't expect the SCOTUS to defend your RKBA in anywhere close the way you understand it.

WalkingWolf said:

My ire is not about the average person who gets a permit, it is at those rabid constitutional, and OC haters. At some that parade as they are pro gun, but actually are not, they are pro permit. I completely understand the person who does what they have to do to stay out of jail, and carry, they are not the jerks I speak of.

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Who are these OC haters you speak of? A few internet trolls? A couple of authors in pro-gun publications? Some--perhaps like our hosts here--who think OCing long guns in highly urban areas maybe isn't the most politically prudent thing to do? The NRA that has a long history of being wrong on any number of RKBA issues?

Which grassroots pro-RKBA organizations have actually been hostile to OC? How many persons or organizations have actually attacked OC legislatively, as opposed to simply not working to advance OC in exactly the way you think the should have? And what was your level of involvement with or support for any such RKBA organization that you might influence their choice of priorities?

Gun grabbers make outlandish claims about guns and gun owners and we expect some evidence form them.

Some self-professed pure RKBA advocates make negative claims about fellow gun owners and we're just supposed to accept them as fact?

Give it a rest. Peter Nap is exactly correct. This is not the time for a bunch of in fighting. If you don't care about Virginia dropping recognition of a bunch of permits, don't care enough to stay quiet. Let those who do care, do what they can do try to correct the situation.

Charles

Shovelhead said:

I'm curious, how many shootings in Virginia were the result of out-of-state permit holders?
Anyone know?

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"Herring took this action even though state police have stated that they have no evidence of crimes committed by in-state or out-of-state permit holders."
~Rob Bell via email
Post #64

What are the odds this recognition bill can get through? Obviously McAuliffe will veto, but are there enough non-NOVA Dems that might vote along with the GOP to override?

I think there is a good chance this will be good for Virginia. There is a good chance this will lead to straight recognition.

I hate carry licenses, yet I support and defend every possible perk for them, as long as there is no trading of other rights. An example is Michigan school carry where they want to ban open carry and allow concealed carry with a permit.

I empathize with the extreme haters of P4P like Marshaul and Walking Wolf, but they are wrong. The Amerikan sheep, uneducated, inattentive, and slavish, do not operate on principle. It's very difficult to get an Amerikan to philosophize or generalize on any subject; they only see particulars. P4P is the gateway drug for more firearms freedom. There would be no constitutional carry in Maine or Kansas or Arizona or licensed OC in Ok or Texas without concealed carry permits and reciprocity agreements. In the years ahead, suppressors will be treated like regular firearms, all because lots of people are paying $250 taxes, registering them, and waiting 3 months to own them lawfully right now under existing NFA law. Same principle. Culture is powerful enough to change the law, philosophy alone is too weak.

OC was around before P4P became vouge. Not sure about VA, but NC had OC longgggggggggg before P4P. OC led the way, not the other way around. P4P had nothing to do with Texas OC, except that the people got stuck with it because of the proponents of P4P. Respectfully you are wrong.

wrearick said:

Think of the threat posed to Virginians by these folks driving/bypassing our state's standards simply because their home state does not follow our standards. Something needs to be done to protect us. Can the State Police act upon a suggestion to not recognize the driver licenses issued by states that don't pass muster with our standards?

In all seriousness, the wife and I will be attending Lobby Day again this year and have room for 2-3 folks in our vehicle anywhere along the path between Virginia Beach and Richmond if someone wants/needs a ride.

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Anyone know why the guv is not concerned about drivers and vehicles? No 'elitist' status to maintain.

77zach said:

I think there is a good chance this will be good for Virginia. There is a good chance this will lead to straight recognition.

I hate carry licenses, yet I support and defend every possible perk for them, as long as there is no trading of other rights. An example is Michigan school carry where they want to ban open carry and allow concealed carry with a permit.

I empathize with the extreme haters of P4P like Marshaul and Walking Wolf, but they are wrong. The Amerikan sheep, uneducated, inattentive, and slavish, do not operate on principle. It's very difficult to get an Amerikan to philosophize or generalize on any subject; they only see particulars. P4P is the gateway drug for more firearms freedom. There would be no constitutional carry in Maine or Kansas or Arizona or licensed OC in Ok or Texas without concealed carry permits and reciprocity agreements. In the years ahead, suppressors will be treated like regular firearms, all because lots of people are paying $250 taxes, registering them, and waiting 3 months to own them lawfully right now under existing NFA law. Same principle. Culture is powerful enough to change the law, philosophy alone is too weak.

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i'm sorry 77, what's that you say? good for VA? good chance for recognition? how on earth can this be good for VA??

can you pray tell what kinda of perk can any citizen receive from having a privilege card issued to them?? as WW and others have espoused...OC has existed in NC and the state decided to institute a profit center and low and behold it had no affect on the state's citizens ability to CC.

you mention suppressors and their common place in the years ahead? the 200$ revenue tax imposed hasn't changed since 1934 for goodness sake. they have been available to citizens in the majority of the states that have normalized firearm activities so what more normalization are you seeking.

finally, can you possibly explain how is a privilege card leads to more firearm freedom...? those in TX got more freedom by being allowed to OC due to the 'blessing' being attached to their state's privilege card profit center.

FL is pushing for OC...so have you already capitulated the granting by the state to allow FL's citizens to OC if it is attached to the state's privilege card profit center...if so quit contacting the legislature and just say...'hey we won't bother anymore you folk if you attach citizens OC to the state's privilege card'

ipse

edited: oh 77...make sure when you go to legislature to tell them you have capitulated...add a caveat so FL doesn't get stuck with a clause allowing the nice LE to automatically stop FL citizens to check their privilege card whenever they personally see or someone whines about a firearm strapped to a citizens hip.

just saying

Come on please, this isn't hard. Shall issue carry permits have added millions to the pro gun fold and shooting sports. Open carry was and in most places still is statistically insignificant. Anything that brings so many people into the gun culture or just into a gun store or shooting range is good.

77zach said:

Come on please, this isn't hard. Shall issue carry permits have added millions to the pro gun fold and shooting sports. Open carry was and in most places still is statistically insignificant. Anything that brings so many people into the gun culture or just into a gun store or shooting range is good.

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adding mega bucks to state coffers...what has brought so many people into the gun culture is the shock and awe & the sky is falling crap being disseminated resulting in a general unease about this country's future. these are not new pro gun folk but the same olde ones who have supported the activity for years an are buying more guns. sorry your premise is flawed if you truly feel just cuz i have a carry permit those millions are pro gun. if that were the case the uproar would be tremendous over things transpiring in different parts of the country right now.

800k permit carriers in texas...ya that is statistically significant...NOT! and look what that state ended up with...OC w/privilege card along with the added benefit the nice peace officers can stop and ask for papers ~ just cuz they feel like it. that's a great perk for Texas citizens isn't it.

BSA/GS/4H/Jr Olympians/etc. is good for perpetuating firearm ownership within our society and has been for decades...

hunger games was responsible for a extreme uptick of interest in archery across our country...and guess what 77, you do not need a privilege card to participate in the sport, tho i will acknowledge it is tough to carry a recurve or compound w/a full quiver down the city streets, at the moment! oh, and the same youth organizations previously mentioned have been instructing that shooting sport for decades also to our nation's youth.

why are you standing behind OC in FL...just follow my guidance, tell the FL legislators they can tie OC to the privilege profit center and trust me the concept will will pass w/o any discussion. as mentioned you have capitulated...quit pushing for rights and accept the privilege and the perks, real or perceived, that go with it.

ipse

77zach said:

Come on please, this isn't hard. Shall issue carry permits have added millions to the pro gun fold and shooting sports. Open carry was and in most places still is statistically insignificant. Anything that brings so many people into the gun culture or just into a gun store or shooting range is good.

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For me this has nothing to do with the gun culture, it is not about the latest gun fad, it is about liberty. It is not like riding motorcycles to bring people to the tattoo culture, or the reverse. I am not surprised at your remarks though as you consider OC insignificant.

77zach said:

I think there is a good chance this will be good for Virginia. ...

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I agree. I think that in the long run, the AG's actions will energize a number of people to a greater degree, or energize people who have heretofore NOT been active at all.

In my experience, many, many of those who CCW-only are content with their privilege, to the extent that they consider it a RIGHT. Take that away and a number of them are going to be really upset.

Would I have wished this on Virginians or those who may travel to VA? Of course not! But, no doubt some privilege card holders are going to be incensed enough to take action and/or open their minds to the real nature of things.

Change will be the outgrowth of their actions/enlightenment.

The Evil of ‘Permitted’ Rights

Natural law is from God, not Man.

Rights from Man are mere privileges.

A privilege granted can later be revoked:

VA AG Reneging on Concealed Carry Reciprocity Highlights Evil of ‘Permitted’ Rights

Would-be rulers who’ve forgotten their place are bucking for a reminder if they keep pushing.

“I’ve never heard of a single case of an out-of-state permit holder causing problems in Virginia,” VCDL President Philip Van Cleave stated. So naturally, [Attorney General Mark Herring] claims his rights-grab is “a common-sense step that can help make Virginians and our law enforcement officers safer.”

But there’s the rub, because as it’s being treated – and as gun owners have allowed, bearing arms is viewed by government as a privilege. So ambitious poltroons who only stab us in the back part of the time are given “A” grades and passed off as “staunch supporters of the Second Amendment” (and look at how that phrase is overused to include just about everyone up to and including John Kerry). And gun owners consider it a great victory to pay for a registration license, to volunteer for a background check, to make sure they don’t bring their property with them where master says they may not (places predators consider their preferred hunting grounds).

And if Michael Bloomberg, or Terry McAwful, or Mark Herring say you can’t cross this invisible border line with your gun, because if you do, and if one of their enforcers catches you, the full power of the state will be used to force you into submission, humiliation, and whatever else they want to do to you, assuming they don’t just kill you. All because when those who are willing participants in tyranny raised their hands and took their oaths, they either had no idea what they were getting into, or they knew perfectly well, and had no intention of being faithful.

All because politically active gun owners accepted the infringement of permits in the first place.

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Maybe we should call him “Red Herring?”

Governor Terry McAuliffe’s ‘Red Herring’

In response to Virginia Attorney General Mark Herring’s statement that Virginia will no longer honor North Carolina concealed handgun permits, Grass Roots North Carolina president Paul Valone made the following remarks:

“Ironically, earlier this year a liberal TV station in Raleigh raised the question of whether Virginia permit requirements are sufficiently stringent to allow Virginia permits to be used here.

Now, liberal Democrats in Virginia are claiming our permit standards aren’t sufficiently stringent.

What both have in common is that they are solutions in search of a problem, and are just thinly veiled political schemes to restrict the ability of lawful citizens to protect themselves and their families.

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Editorial from the Pilot's Kerry Dougherty

A useless gift that keeps on giving:

Herring's useless political gift is one Virginia lawmakers should return

Let’s give Virginia Attorney General Mark Herring credit: His Christmas present to the commonwealth was a well-kept surprise.

Unfortunately, like so many other gifts given in December, it was completely useless.

In fact, Virginia’s Republican lawmakers are reportedly looking for a way to return it when they arrive next month in Richmond.

I wish them well.

...

Without even one example to justify his sweeping actions, it appears that Virginia’s top law enforcer is behaving like so many other government meddlers as he attempts to fix a problem that doesn’t exist.

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This is followed by a reader comment:

Rockfish HIker

There should be no concealed carry permits for citizens who are not directly involved in law enforcement. I certainly don't feel safer knowing the person standing beside me in the checkout line or sitting beside me in the movie theater may have a gun.

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Repeater said:

This is followed by a reader comment:

Rockfish HIker

There should be no concealed carry permits for citizens who are not directly involved in law enforcement. I certainly don't feel safer knowing the person standing beside me in the checkout line or sitting beside me in the movie theater may have a gun.

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It's always about the feelings for them. When in fact, the statistics show that he IS much safer, no matter how he FEELS.

Sadly, our ideological opponents in this issue are a lot who would actually prefer to FEEL safer than to BE safer. It's hard to work with such a handicap.

TFred