MISSOURI Resident with UTAH CCW Permit------CHANGES SUCK-----Need some help

I am a MISSOURI resident and have had my NON-RESIDENT UTAH CCW permit for I guess for coming up on 5 years now! Well my date of renewal is coming up very soon and when to the UTAH DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY WEBSITE (http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/concealedfirearms.html)to see what I had to do to RENEW it and it would appear that there are some BIG changes if I am reading this correctly.

The following text taken out the the brochure. (http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/documents/BCINewsletterApril2011.pdf)

One major change in the new law is regarding some non-resident applicants for the Utah concealed firearm permit. If a non-resident applicant is from a state that either has a formal reciprocity agreement with Utah or recognizes the Utah concealed firearm permit, the applicant must hold and provide proof of a current concealed firearm or concealed weapon permit issued by the applicant’s state of residency upon application for the Utah concealed firearm permit. This change will not affect those applicants who reside in a state that does not have formal reciprocity or recognition with Utah, i.e. California, New York, Kansas, etc. Renewal applications will be under this new requirement starting January 1, 2012.

So does this mean I must now go take a course all over again and obtain a MISSOURI CCW permit before I can renew my UTAH permit? Missouri recognizes permits from every state as I recall. So I have to now get my Missouri Permit then renew the my UTAH permit but, the time I do this my UTAH permit will expire. What a load of crap! I specifically DID NOT get the Missouri permit because I did not want it on a DRIVERS LICENSE let alone have to pay additional fee’s to get it on a standalone I.D. Card. Let alone the renewal fee was only 15 bucks.

So am I going to have to pitch out the 150 bucks or more for another course or is there some kind lingo in the wording of the Missouri requirements that will let a course be subtitled for a military experience? I know a while back a DD214 would suffice in Florida I believe I have read before. Also does anyone know how what the maximum time my UTAH permit can be expired for before I will have to pay the full fee’s instead of just the renewal fee.

If I must take another course can anyone recommend a good course instructor in the area.

The last time I took the course I drove down to (TOP GUN) in Imperial MO and did it through there but, in speaking with some members on here and researching the information they gave me. The instructor i had injected pieces of bunk information/personal opinions into his course. I would care to have an instructor up to date on some current actual laws rather his personal opinions into things. For instance told us that in no way shape or form was OC legal in Missouri which i later found out differently very differntly. I personally think he was against it looking back.But i will not frequent his course again!

There used to be a guy on here schoff or something like that i think was an instructor or something. He that seemd very well informed much more than myself. But thats why were here right to learn some more.

If you go to www.missouricarry.com
Look at the top of the welcome page there is a section with CCW instructors and you can get a much better price no doubt.
It's a good idea to "join" the MSSA anyway!

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Concealed Carry Firearms & Training – SITE SPONSOR
Jul 14, 2011 // by admin1 // St. Louis // No Comments
SITE SPONSOR
$125 for MO/UT/FL permit class + Free Hour at Top Gun Range ($17.00 value)
Dan Smith, Arnold – South County MO
Certified Missouri, Utah and Florida CCW
Utah #I 100905 / NRA #014303364
8 hours MO. session
Firearms for qualification, ammo, and safety equipment included in the training fee. Students may qualify with their own firearm if they choose but must supply their own ammo in that case.
Discount for Active Duty and Retired Military, and Veterans
www.concealedcarryfirearms.com
concealedcarry@earthlink.net
314-422-9893
On-Target Firearms Training LLC, – David Walter, NRA & BCI Instructor
Jul 14, 2011 // by admin1 // St. Louis // No Comments
Class cost is $100.00
$25.00 which includes Firearms, Ammunition & Safety Gear.
Weekday evening classes in O\’Fallon & Creve Coeur, weekend classes
in St. Clair. We can teach a CCW class at your home, office, fraternal
organization or club.We also offer private-individual CCW training, call for pricing.
For more info:
314-962-1200
ontargetccw@charter.net

http://www.ONTARGETCCW.com
Winfield Firearms Training – North County/St. Charles
Jul 14, 2011 // by admin1 // St. Louis // 1 Comment
$100.00
Michael Kight, Instructor/Owner
Winfield, Mo. 63389
Firearms, ammo, eye and ear protection provided
certified, licensed, insured
specializing in individuals and small groups
314-440-3811
E-mail:mkight@centurytel.net
Sovereign Arms – Matt Gumersell – Arnold, MO
Jul 14, 2011 // by admin1 // St. Louis // No Comments
Class cost is $150
$75 with purchase of a gun
Discounts available for groups
8 hours Minimum Class on weekends
Just outside South County on Hwy 21 and 141.
For more info:
636.287.8821
sovereignarms@sbcglobal.net

http://www.sovereignarms.com
STL Pistol Safety – O’Fallon, MO
Jul 14, 2011 // by admin1 // St. Louis // No Comments
$125 per person
(all range fees included)Firearms available for rent
Ammunition available for purchase
Call for more info.
636-219-9994 and

http://www.stlpistolsafety.com
Phillip Sapp
Jul 14, 2011 // by admin1 // St. Louis // No Comments
Class cost $100.00 for Utah / Florida. $125.00 Missouri
NRA Basic Pistol Instructor, Utah Firearms Instructor
Personal training in your home or business.
For more info:
314-494-6669
phillip.threatresponsetraining@yahoo.com
High Caliber CCW Training – St. Charles
Jul 14, 2011 // by admin1 // St. Louis // No Comments
$110
5 hour class session, 3 hour range session.
They provide firearms and ammo
Bring eye and ear protection.
Call for more info.
(314)-971-9737 and

http://www.highcaliber.us
John Ross Training (St. Louis Area)
Jul 14, 2011 // by admin1 // St. Louis // No Comments
$100
5 hour class session, 4 hour range session.
They provide firearms and refreshments!!!!!
Bring eye and ear protection.
Call for more info and location.
314-308-8261 and

http://www.john-ross.net/ccw.php
Missouri Firearms Training, LLC, – St. Charles
Jul 14, 2011 // by admin1 // St. Louis // No Comments
$125 per student
8 hour session including range time.
Firearms, ear and eye protection, ammo,
and training materials provided.
Call Joe or Lisa Donato for more information.
636.577.6028 and mofatonline@gmail.com
http://www.mofatonline.com/
Vic Salguero Concealed Carry – Kirkwood
Jul 14, 2011 // by admin1 // St. Louis // No Comments
$125 per student
8-10 hour session including range time.
Price includes firearm usage, ammo and class materials.
Call for more information.
314.962.0123 and victorsalguero@sbcglobal.net
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I am waiting for my AZ permit, easy, cheap but yes ,you do have a to have a MO CCW.

or get an Arizona permit..

Or open carry (if you're in an area where it's currently permitted).

I don't paying out a hundred bucks but, truly i think the $125.00 is a bit steep in my eyes. Like many of you say i dont think we should have to pay anything the fact is though that's not gonna happen very soon. Especially when i already have a Valid NON-RESIDENT from UTAH. but i guess what i need now is the Missouri permit! I guess i will probly cave in and find one that meets the minimum training requirements

Under Missouri Chapter 571.111 will either a DD214 suffice or the same certificate from the UTAH couse meet the requirements of
Firearms training requirements--safety instructor requirements--penalty for violations.

571.111. 1. An applicant for a concealed carry endorsement shall demonstrate knowledge of firearms safety training. This requirement shall be fully satisfied if the applicant for a concealed carry endorsement:

(1) Submits a photocopy of a certificate of firearms safety training course completion, as defined in subsection 2 of this section, signed by a qualified firearms safety instructor as defined in subsection 5 of this section; or

(2) Submits a photocopy of a certificate that shows the applicant completed a firearms safety course given by or under the supervision of any state, county, municipal, or federal law enforcement agency; or

(3) Is a qualified firearms safety instructor as defined in subsection 5 of this section; or

(4) Submits proof that the applicant currently holds any type of valid peace officer license issued under the requirements of chapter 590; or

(5) Submits proof that the applicant is currently allowed to carry firearms in accordance with the certification requirements of section 217.710; or

(6) Submits proof that the applicant is currently certified as any class of corrections officer by the Missouri department of corrections and has passed at least one eight-hour firearms training course, approved by the director of the Missouri department of corrections under the authority granted to him or her by section 217.105, that includes instruction on the justifiable use of force as prescribed in chapter 563.

mechanicworkman said:

Under Missouri Chapter 571.111 will either a DD214 suffice or the same certificate from the UTAH couse meet the requirements of
Firearms training requirements--safety instructor requirements--penalty for violations.

.

Click to expand...

No sir they will not meet the requirement. Last year a bill got screwed up and while claimed as a clerical error correction, an increase in the live fire requirements was born. The Utah class requirements never met the MO ones so prior Utah certification is not much help. Many of our vets would like to see DD214 make the trip but it simply has not made the trip into the MO statutes yet.

Again as mentioned earlier, check out the AZ permit, inexpensive and long lasting. BTW also disappointed about the Utah thing but they were going to lose reciprocity with other states if they did not make some changes and yes, somewhat caved to political pressure. It just goes to prove tht even when doing the right thing like Utah was, when enough scream that you are not and they push hard enough, even the right thing can go away.

mechanicworkman said:

I don't paying out a hundred bucks but, truly i think the $125.00 is a bit steep in my eyes.

Click to expand...

Agreed there on that point. And since it is two of us, its double for me. Plus the cost of not getting paid for two days, the cost of ammo, gas, drive time... May as well get another two guns for the price of two CCLs. Hence why I Open Carry.

Well Thank you everyone for your help! Looks like i will be taking another course!

mechanic,

Take mpsgunner's post and link seriously. There are some very bad instructors in the STL area that are offering deeply discounted "short courses" that do not meet the standards. Many on the missouricarry board can't stand those kinds of instructors and most will make an active effort to steer folks clear of them by referring them to a known and reputable instructor.

Your DD214 won't work. Current orders PCS'ing you to Missouri and a military ID would. I have not heard of deployment orders assigning someone under Operation Noble Eagle would work, I've not had to ask or answer that question. The last time anything with that came up was in 02 while I was at Ft. Benning when we contacted the BATFE regarding O.N.E. orders and if we could legally purchase firearms in Georgia under those orders.

Don't fret. There are several States that have started making changes to their OOS permits. Pennsylvania is supposed to be requiring photos with their renewals now, they didn't when I first obtained mine; they did require a color photocopy of your current permit from your home State.
Whatever you choose to do, don't let your CCW option lapse since Missouri does not have the OC denial statute repealed. That way if you happen leave an OC friendly jurisdiction only to wind up in a jurisdiction in Mo that says NO to OC you'll still have an option.

Forgot to include this. The MOAG's reciprocity page and yes, Utah is on it.
http://ago.mo.gov/Concealed-Weapons/

I very much understand that there are some bad instructors out there.

Now when i took my class original at Top Gun Shooting Range class at the time I thought it was very informative and well done only through my own research to find out later to that some of the information was more his opinion

I believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but don’t in a CCW class state your opinions as state law and be entirely wrong.

This is why I was hoping to find someone in the area that can vouch for an instructor so I at least get one that’s creditable and knows what he is talking about.
Since yesterday I have found out that now my girlfriend has taken up a certain interest in wanting to get her CCW. So now she will be taking the course with me as well when I find one. SO the importance of finding one that is good is even of more importance.

On the issue of letting my CCW expire I have NO choice I will be calling Utah on Monday and find out how long after it expires I can still renew. I am out of the country until the March 1st. At which time when I get back I can do the Missouri Course wait the time frame to get the permit and then renew Utah permit. But with only about 30 days between March first and April 1st when the permit expires is not enough time to get the class taken and send off the paperwork.

Chek out Florida...DD214 is enough and it is a 7yr permit for $125.00....Az is only $45.00...not sure how long and not sure of the dd214..

It is also noteworthy since this is an open carry forum, that by carrying on an OOS permit, you remain at risk of being charged under the GFSZA which defines and has been confirmed by the BATF that the exemption from it only applies when you are carrying on a permit from the state the school is located in.

It is the only reason I chose to carry the MO permit as well.

It is NOT something that tends to be applied, it is more of an adder charge that is used, however, we have all seen them dig for anything possible and since I OC and live within 100 feet of school property, it seemed a wise decision.

LMTD,

Yes very valid point you have there! although it not real likely it is one of the considerations that I have taken into account! Although i have never had any problems with the popularity of states requiring a permit from there home state first may be gaining momentum. I will likely cave and get the Missouri Permit. DO you know if when they run your Driver's license that they can actually tell you have a CCW. Not that I get pulled over a lot only once in the last 10 years but you just never know. I worry more along the lines of before being actually pulled over when a cop just runs plate from in back of my vehicle driving down the freeway.

They can see it when they run your drivers license, not your car license.

Not that I personally consider it the officers business, but it was indeed a concession required to get the ccw passed for the state, without it, it would have failed again.

On a side note, so what! Any police officer worth their salt assumes everyone in the vehicle is armed and potentially dangerous. Many police officers have lost their lives making the mistake of thinking otherwise.

Not unlike the anti's cries of blood in the street, thee have not been a mass of cops approaching CCW'ers guns drawn. I recently was pulled over for speeding, I was not paying any attention and it crept up. It was very late, very dark and my vehicle has tinted windows. The officer approached in a proper manner, was VERY polite, came back to the car, asked me if I had my CCW weapon on me, I told him yes, I had a pistol in my pocket, he asked me to keep my hands upon the wheel and then wrongly stated that I was supposed to let him know. If it had not been very late and I had not been hungry I would have bothered with training him, instead I just sat silently as he read me the rules surrounding the ticket. When he was finally done talking, I said "thank you" and drive off. Once the case is over I will write his chief a note commending the officer for his polite and professional demeanor and criticize the chief for the training practices that omitted this important information.

There have been few terry conversions related to traffic stops, or better said, I have heard of only a very few where once the officer learned of the status of the driver, they did anything beyond sending them on their way as they would any other citizen.

I am not saying that your desire for privacy is misguided, I am simply saying it was a real sticking point to get ccw at all and I doubt one could hope for much success trying to alter it. If there had been a bunch of officer abuse one might have a shot, but basically there has been none and you are not going to find removal an easy battle.

LMTD,

I appreciate all the help!

I understand that it is bad practice for any police officer to approach any traffic stop like a walk in the park or just another day at the office.

In the only traffic stop i had was right after i got my CCW which went without a hitch aside from the ticket I got for running the red light! The officer even made small talk for a few moments about what i carried.

The only worry i have about them knowing is when if ever it goes the other way with an officer that is totally apposed to anyone having firearms and making more of a situation than there is.

mechanicworkman said:

The only worry i have about them knowing is when if ever it goes the other way with an officer that is totally apposed to anyone having firearms and making more of a situation than there is.

Click to expand...

Laws are an interesting concept really. They do little or nothing to regulate the criminal behavior of the irresponsible, only the responsible are effected by them. That said, nothing one can write into law is going to prevent an officer from overstepping his bounds as he is not responsible and it will not change his actions knowing or not knowing. In other words, most cops are good folks and bad cops are just that, bad cops and while their actions are indeed a problem, they are not the rule so to speak.

In general LEO's see too many bad situations involving firearms, they see it within their own forces, it does not mean however that anyone should give up their rights, it just means it is not so complex as to why they would feel as they do. Feelings and facts are separate issues, I use safes in my home for firearms, I think everyone should, if I were an officer responding to some child having been shot after finding a gun in a drawer, I might FEEL everyone should be required to have a safe that owns a gun. That would not make it factually correct, it would not make it fundamentally sound where rights come in, but it would most certainly be a feeling. I am not of the cloth that says I may impose my feelings on others and I try not to do so.

The MULEs notification helps some law enforcement feel better, it makes some politicians and the folks who vote for them feel better, it really does nothing to improve officer safety except notify him that the statistically one of the most law abiding citizens he comes across sits in the car in front of him. A criminal has no such notification and if decidedly about to kill a LEO, is just going to start blasting before the officer ever has the card in his or her hand. They know it, but still it makes so many FEEL good, it was required.

mechanicworkman said:

If I must take another course can anyone recommend a good course instructor in the area.

The last time I took the course I drove down to (TOP GUN) in Imperial MO and did it through there but, in speaking with some members on here and researching the information they gave me. The instructor i had injected pieces of bunk information/personal opinions into his course. I would care to have an instructor up to date on some current actual laws rather his personal opinions into things. For instance told us that in no way shape or form was OC legal in Missouri which i later found out differently very differntly. I personally think he was against it looking back.But i will not frequent his course again!

There used to be a guy on here schoff or something like that i think was an instructor or something. He that seemd very well informed much more than myself. But thats why were here right to learn some more.

Click to expand...

I went to "high caliber". They teach it right there on St. Charles Rock Rd, across from De Paul Hospital at the Machinest Hall. You ahve to go totheir website for the days and times.

mechanicworkman said:

I am a MISSOURI resident and have had my NON-RESIDENT UTAH CCW permit for I guess for coming up on 5 years now! Well my date of renewal is coming up very soon and when to the UTAH DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY WEBSITE (http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/concealedfirearms.html)to see what I had to do to RENEW it and it would appear that there are some BIG changes if I am reading this correctly.

The following text taken out the the brochure. (http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/documents/BCINewsletterApril2011.pdf)

One major change in the new law is regarding some non-resident applicants for the Utah concealed firearm permit. If a non-resident applicant is from a state that either has a formal reciprocity agreement with Utah or recognizes the Utah concealed firearm permit, the applicant must hold and provide proof of a current concealed firearm or concealed weapon permit issued by the applicant’s state of residency upon application for the Utah concealed firearm permit. This change will not affect those applicants who reside in a state that does not have formal reciprocity or recognition with Utah, i.e. California, New York, Kansas, etc. Renewal applications will be under this new requirement starting January 1, 2012.

So does this mean I must now go take a course all over again and obtain a MISSOURI CCW permit before I can renew my UTAH permit? Missouri recognizes permits from every state as I recall. So I have to now get my Missouri Permit then renew the my UTAH permit but, the time I do this my UTAH permit will expire. What a load of crap! I specifically DID NOT get the Missouri permit because I did not want it on a DRIVERS LICENSE let alone have to pay additional fee’s to get it on a standalone I.D. Card. Let alone the renewal fee was only 15 bucks.

So am I going to have to pitch out the 150 bucks or more for another course or is there some kind lingo in the wording of the Missouri requirements that will let a course be subtitled for a military experience? I know a while back a DD214 would suffice in Florida I believe I have read before. Also does anyone know how what the maximum time my UTAH permit can be expired for before I will have to pay the full fee’s instead of just the renewal fee.

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Yeah, it sucks but that's how Missouri want to make its money.
I had spent;
$100 for the class
$76 to file at St. Louis County
$5 to have my CCW on my State ID (it didn't matter, once the cops runs your number, it comes up)

I think they have started this because there where people who got in trouble with the law here in Missouri and couldn't "legaly" get a CCW. Sometimes info doesn't travel out and so people will file in other states.