The Donkey
New member
I resemble that remark!
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Lawyer jailed over pledge refusal in court
- Thread starter Aaron1124
- Start date
I resemble that remark!
Aaron1124
Regular Member
What "crap" am I coming up with? LOL@ Calling me a "flaming liberal" because I support civil liberties. Socially, yes, I am very liberal. Fiscally, I am very conservative. You do not know me. You are the one who are making these accusations that "rules are rules", so please, go ahead and cite a source stating what consists of "contempt of court". Remember, the site policies say that if you're going to make a statement regarding legalities, you must do your best at citing a legitimate source. By the way, I am a 28 year old man - not that it has absolutely anything to do with this conversation.
And if I'm not mistaken, I think I read elsewhere that the judge did come up with that policy himself. As has been mentioned, the judge is there to preside over hearings, he is not a deity nor can he arbitrarily order anyone to do whatever he wants them to do simply because it's his courtroom.
So, tell me "Sonora", where is the line drawn? What orders, if anything, in your mind, constitutes a violation of law?
What if the judge asked everyone in the court room to say a prayer to Jesus Christ, despite there being Muslims, Jews and Buddhists present? Should he toss them all in jail for refusing?
How about try answering the question instead of throwing out the red herring.
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eye95
Well-known member
Aaron,
I am sorry you had to tolerate such an unnecessarily insulting post.
Normally, I don't have to read that stuff. But you saw fit to quote it! :banghead:
I am sorry you had to tolerate such an unnecessarily insulting post.
Normally, I don't have to read that stuff. But you saw fit to quote it! :banghead:Aaron1124
Regular Member
Here is Volokh's take:
Eugene Volokh • October 7, 2010 4:32 pm
That’s what the Court held 67 years ago even as to schoolchildren, and the rationale of the case would squarely apply to others, such as lawyers. But news travels slowly to one Mississippi courtroom, where Chancery Judge Talmadge Littlejohn sent a lawyer to jail for contempt of court, because the lawyer refused to say the pledge. (The lawyer apparently did stand during the pledge, but didn’t speak.) “Give thanks for your freedom, son, or I’m sending you to jail,” is how Radley Balko (The Agitator) put it.
The judge apparently changed his mind a few hours later, and released the lawyer. I’m happy to say that Tom Freeland (NMissCommentator) was working on an emergency petition for mandamus on the lawyer’s behalf, but that seems to have become moot as a result of the judge’s change of mind.
[UPDATE: Maybe further legal action will indeed be necessary; Judge Littlejohn’s order releasing the lawyer says that “the issue of further incarceration shall be held in abeyance pending further order of this Court.”]
Eugene Volokh • October 7, 2010 4:32 pm
That’s what the Court held 67 years ago even as to schoolchildren, and the rationale of the case would squarely apply to others, such as lawyers. But news travels slowly to one Mississippi courtroom, where Chancery Judge Talmadge Littlejohn sent a lawyer to jail for contempt of court, because the lawyer refused to say the pledge. (The lawyer apparently did stand during the pledge, but didn’t speak.) “Give thanks for your freedom, son, or I’m sending you to jail,” is how Radley Balko (The Agitator) put it.
The judge apparently changed his mind a few hours later, and released the lawyer. I’m happy to say that Tom Freeland (NMissCommentator) was working on an emergency petition for mandamus on the lawyer’s behalf, but that seems to have become moot as a result of the judge’s change of mind.
[UPDATE: Maybe further legal action will indeed be necessary; Judge Littlejohn’s order releasing the lawyer says that “the issue of further incarceration shall be held in abeyance pending further order of this Court.”]
Aaron1124
Regular Member
Aaron,
I am sorry you had to tolerate such an unnecessarily insulting post.
That's alright - the guy is obviously just trolling for an argument, considering he completely disregarded my (legitimate) question. Oh well, I figure once the individual starts disregarding the topic, and starts resorting to blind assumptions to a political affiliation based off of what is said in a thread, then all hope is already lost with them.
Anywho, I'll step aside from this thread for a while, because I don't see it rising back from the hellhole that it's fallen in to.
HankT
State Researcher
Aaron,
I am sorry you had to tolerate such an unnecessarily insulting post.
Are you saying that you have Sonora Rebel on Ignore, E95?
sudden valley gunner
Regular Member
This judge is an insult to liberty and typical of what is happening in this country with those who feel they are "authorities".
I have never said the pledge of allegiance in my entire life. I stand and show respect but will not idolize an "image" and pledge allegiance to it. My allegiance is to my freedom and the freedom of my countrymen(women) and I will die fighting for that.
I have never said the pledge of allegiance in my entire life. I stand and show respect but will not idolize an "image" and pledge allegiance to it. My allegiance is to my freedom and the freedom of my countrymen(women) and I will die fighting for that.
eye95
Well-known member
We don't just pledge allegiance to the "image." We also pledge allegiance "to the Republic for which it stands."
Time for Red to check in again:
[video=youtube;TZBTyTWOZCM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZBTyTWOZCM[/video]
Time for Red to check in again:
[video=youtube;TZBTyTWOZCM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZBTyTWOZCM[/video]
Sonora Rebel
Regular Member
http://www.lectlaw.com/def/c118.htm (For those incapable of finding it themselves
Contempt Of Court - Civil Or Criminal
A judge who feels someone is improperly challenging or ignoring the court's authority has the power to declare the defiant person (called the contemnor) in contempt of court. There are two types of contempt, criminal and civil. Criminal contempt occurs when the contemnor actually interferes with the ability of the court to function properly - for example, by yelling at the judge. This is also called direct contempt because it occurs directly in front of the judge. A criminal contemnor may be fined, jailed or both as punishment for his act.
Civil contempt occurs when the contemnor willfully disobeys a court order. This is also called indirect contempt because it occurs outside the judge's immediate realm and evidence must be presented to the judge to prove the contempt. A civil contemnor, too, may be fined, jailed or both. The fine or jailing is meant to coerce the contemnor into obeying the court, not to punish him, and the contemnor will be released from jail just as soon as he complies with the court order. In family law, civil contempt is one way a court enforces alimony, child support, custody and visitation orders which have been violated.
However, many courts have realized that, at least regarding various procedural matters such as appointment of counsel, the distinction between civil and criminal contempt is often blurred and uncertain.
A Willful Disregard Or Disobedience Of A Public Authority.
By the Constitution of the United States, each house of congress may determine the rules of its proceeding's, punish its members for disorderly behaviour and, with the concurrence of two-thirds, expel a member. The same provision is substantially contained in the constitutions of the several states.
The power to make rules carries that of enforcing them, and to attach persons who violate them and punish them for contempts. This power of punishing for contempts is confined to punishment during the session of the legislature and cannot extend beyond it, and it seems this power cannot be exerted beyond imprisonment.
Courts of justice have an inherent power to punish all persons for contempt of their rules and orders, for disobedience of their process, and for disturbing them in their proceedings.
In some states, as in Pennsylvania, the power to punish for contempts is restricted to offences committed by the officers of the court, or in its presence, or in disobedience of its mandates, orders, or rules; but no one is guilty of a contempt for any publication made or act done out of court which is not in violation of such lawful rules or orders, or disobedience of its process. Similar provisions, limiting the power of the courts of the United States to punish for contempts, are incorporated in 28 U.S.C.
When a person is in prison for a contempt, it has been decided in New York that he cannot be discharged by another judge when brought before him on a habeas corpus; and it belongs exclusively to the court offended to judge of contempts and what amounts to them; and no other court or judge can, or ought to undertake in a collateral way, to question or review an adjudication of a contempt made by another competent jurisdiction.
This way be considered as the established doctrine equally in England as in this country.
As a cop, I spent a LOT of time in court. The presiding judge can (and usually will) run his court with a free hand.
Contempt Of Court - Civil Or Criminal
A judge who feels someone is improperly challenging or ignoring the court's authority has the power to declare the defiant person (called the contemnor) in contempt of court. There are two types of contempt, criminal and civil. Criminal contempt occurs when the contemnor actually interferes with the ability of the court to function properly - for example, by yelling at the judge. This is also called direct contempt because it occurs directly in front of the judge. A criminal contemnor may be fined, jailed or both as punishment for his act.
Civil contempt occurs when the contemnor willfully disobeys a court order. This is also called indirect contempt because it occurs outside the judge's immediate realm and evidence must be presented to the judge to prove the contempt. A civil contemnor, too, may be fined, jailed or both. The fine or jailing is meant to coerce the contemnor into obeying the court, not to punish him, and the contemnor will be released from jail just as soon as he complies with the court order. In family law, civil contempt is one way a court enforces alimony, child support, custody and visitation orders which have been violated.
However, many courts have realized that, at least regarding various procedural matters such as appointment of counsel, the distinction between civil and criminal contempt is often blurred and uncertain.
A Willful Disregard Or Disobedience Of A Public Authority.
By the Constitution of the United States, each house of congress may determine the rules of its proceeding's, punish its members for disorderly behaviour and, with the concurrence of two-thirds, expel a member. The same provision is substantially contained in the constitutions of the several states.
The power to make rules carries that of enforcing them, and to attach persons who violate them and punish them for contempts. This power of punishing for contempts is confined to punishment during the session of the legislature and cannot extend beyond it, and it seems this power cannot be exerted beyond imprisonment.
Courts of justice have an inherent power to punish all persons for contempt of their rules and orders, for disobedience of their process, and for disturbing them in their proceedings.
In some states, as in Pennsylvania, the power to punish for contempts is restricted to offences committed by the officers of the court, or in its presence, or in disobedience of its mandates, orders, or rules; but no one is guilty of a contempt for any publication made or act done out of court which is not in violation of such lawful rules or orders, or disobedience of its process. Similar provisions, limiting the power of the courts of the United States to punish for contempts, are incorporated in 28 U.S.C.
When a person is in prison for a contempt, it has been decided in New York that he cannot be discharged by another judge when brought before him on a habeas corpus; and it belongs exclusively to the court offended to judge of contempts and what amounts to them; and no other court or judge can, or ought to undertake in a collateral way, to question or review an adjudication of a contempt made by another competent jurisdiction.
This way be considered as the established doctrine equally in England as in this country.
As a cop, I spent a LOT of time in court. The presiding judge can (and usually will) run his court with a free hand.
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Venator
Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
A judge can put you in jail for contempt forever, without a trial, etc. But if you killed him you could get out in 25 years. I would say that's absolute power.
Venator
Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
From Wikipedia:
The Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy (1855–1931), a Baptist minister, a Christian socialist, and the cousin of socialist utopian novelist Edward Bellamy (1850–1898).
I guess the above says a lot.
The pledge should be willing recited, not forced. To force a free person to pledge allegiance to a country that forces you to say a pledge of allegiance is not a country where a person is free to express themselves and therefore not really a free country............
The Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy (1855–1931), a Baptist minister, a Christian socialist, and the cousin of socialist utopian novelist Edward Bellamy (1850–1898).
I guess the above says a lot.
The pledge should be willing recited, not forced. To force a free person to pledge allegiance to a country that forces you to say a pledge of allegiance is not a country where a person is free to express themselves and therefore not really a free country............
HankT
State Researcher
http://www.lectlaw.com/def/c118.htm (For those incapable of finding it themselves
Contempt Of Court - Civil Or Criminal
A judge who feels someone is improperly challenging or ignoring the court's authority has the power to declare the defiant person (called the contemnor) in contempt of court. There are two types of contempt, criminal and civil. Criminal contempt occurs when the contemnor actually interferes with the ability of the court to function properly - for example, by yelling at the judge. This is also called direct contempt because it occurs directly in front of the judge. A criminal contemnor may be fined, jailed or both as punishment for his act.
Civil contempt occurs when the contemnor willfully disobeys a court order. This is also called indirect contempt because it occurs outside the judge's immediate realm and evidence must be presented to the judge to prove the contempt. A civil contemnor, too, may be fined, jailed or both. The fine or jailing is meant to coerce the contemnor into obeying the court, not to punish him, and the contemnor will be released from jail just as soon as he complies with the court order. In family law, civil contempt is one way a court enforces alimony, child support, custody and visitation orders which have been violated.
However, many courts have realized that, at least regarding various procedural matters such as appointment of counsel, the distinction between civil and criminal contempt is often blurred and uncertain.
A Willful Disregard Or Disobedience Of A Public Authority.
By the Constitution of the United States, each house of congress may determine the rules of its proceeding's, punish its members for disorderly behaviour and, with the concurrence of two-thirds, expel a member. The same provision is substantially contained in the constitutions of the several states.
The power to make rules carries that of enforcing them, and to attach persons who violate them and punish them for contempts. This power of punishing for contempts is confined to punishment during the session of the legislature and cannot extend beyond it, and it seems this power cannot be exerted beyond imprisonment.
Courts of justice have an inherent power to punish all persons for contempt of their rules and orders, for disobedience of their process, and for disturbing them in their proceedings.
In some states, as in Pennsylvania, the power to punish for contempts is restricted to offences committed by the officers of the court, or in its presence, or in disobedience of its mandates, orders, or rules; but no one is guilty of a contempt for any publication made or act done out of court which is not in violation of such lawful rules or orders, or disobedience of its process. Similar provisions, limiting the power of the courts of the United States to punish for contempts, are incorporated in 28 U.S.C.
When a person is in prison for a contempt, it has been decided in New York that he cannot be discharged by another judge when brought before him on a habeas corpus; and it belongs exclusively to the court offended to judge of contempts and what amounts to them; and no other court or judge can, or ought to undertake in a collateral way, to question or review an adjudication of a contempt made by another competent jurisdiction.
This way be considered as the established doctrine equally in England as in this country.
As a cop, I spent a LOT of time in court. The presiding judge can (and usually will) run his court with a free hand.
That doesn't mean that the judge can force someone to say, sing, or do a jig to the pledge of allegiance. This is the United States of America--not some dman nationalist autocracy . . .
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Dreamer
Regular Member
I'm an Eagle Scout. I fly the US and NC state flag in front of my house every day (weather permitting). I stand and place my hand over my heart during the National Anthem at sporting events and public rallies. I've said the "Pledge of Allegiance" thousands of times in my life, and do so with pride.
All that said, I personally believe there isn't enough tar, feathers, and rails in the state of Mississippi with which to cover and on which to ride Chancery Judge Talmadge Littlejohn out of town.
The 1A does not stop at the door of a Court.
Judges who view their courtrooms as personal fiefdoms are not worthy of their robes, and should be removed from the bench and disbarred. I might not agree with this attorney's position on the Pledge, but given this judge's attitude, I may well have done the same thing, and proudly worn the chains.
I wonder if this attorney is well-versed in the filing procedure for Federal 1983 suits?
All that said, I personally believe there isn't enough tar, feathers, and rails in the state of Mississippi with which to cover and on which to ride Chancery Judge Talmadge Littlejohn out of town.
The 1A does not stop at the door of a Court.
Judges who view their courtrooms as personal fiefdoms are not worthy of their robes, and should be removed from the bench and disbarred. I might not agree with this attorney's position on the Pledge, but given this judge's attitude, I may well have done the same thing, and proudly worn the chains.
I wonder if this attorney is well-versed in the filing procedure for Federal 1983 suits?
eye95
Well-known member
Any judge's contempt ruling can be reviewed and overturned. I am sure judges are loath to do this, lest it be done to them. However, if a contempt charge is so outrageous as to shock the sensibilities of the typical judge, they will provide relief.
Judges are not as all-powerful as some would think. Yes, they are quite powerful in their courtroom, but everything they do is subject to review.
Everyone is answerable to someone, and the ultimate someone in our Republic is We the People.
Old Grump
Regular Member
Lawyer jailed for refusing to honor the flag and pledge allegiance, a start, a small start but a good start. Now we need more judges with the same amount of concern for the pathetic state of respect public officers in this country, (the president of our country comes to mind), have for our nation is being taught to our students. How can you expect students to respect the constitution and the law if teachers, lawyers and politicians don't.
Lawyer had a right to be an ass and the judge had a right to slap him for it.
Dos centavos from an old dinosaur.
Lawyer had a right to be an ass and the judge had a right to slap him for it.
Dos centavos from an old dinosaur.
sudden valley gunner
Regular Member
It's still an image.......
MamaLiberty
Regular Member
Respect is earned by one's choices and actions - those who respect the rights and dignity of other people. It does not come as a part of an "office" or a costume.
When teachers, lawyers, politicians and cops EARN my respect, I'll happily give it to them. But not otherwise.
Generally speaking, it is the utter failure of these people to respect the true law that causes others to disrespect them. Few, if any truly represent anything but their own brand of "law" which almost always violates the law of non-aggression and integrity.
eye95
Well-known member
*sigh*
We are also pledging allegiance "to the Republic for which it stands," not just the flag itself.
Moving on.
MamaLiberty
Regular Member
Speak for yourself. I'm not part of your "we."
I own myself and owe no "allegiance" to the republic or anything else. I may choose to associate, but I don't owe anyone or anything involuntarily.
Nobody can determine that for anyone but themselves.
Doug Huffman
Banned
'The Pledge' Wall Street Journal Book Review and more.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703735804575536041452086002.html
The Balch Salute, "I give my heart and my hand to my country — one country, one language, one flag."
That screamed "Ein Reich, ein Volk, ein Fuhrer" to me.
Then to mention the Bellamy Salute
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bellamy_salute_1.jpg
was almost too much, right after waxing multicultural.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703735804575536041452086002.html
The Balch Salute, "I give my heart and my hand to my country — one country, one language, one flag."
That screamed "Ein Reich, ein Volk, ein Fuhrer" to me.
Then to mention the Bellamy Salute
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bellamy_salute_1.jpg
was almost too much, right after waxing multicultural.