Harassed By St. Joe PD

[Reverend BCal]

Oh, jeepers. You say something to one ******* cop while frustrated and under stress and everyone gets up in arms. Mohawk, I feel sorry for you. It must not be very much fun going through life with so much anger and frustration in your heart. Forgive me for lumping your state (and its great constitutional carry laws) with Nazi Germany (and its terrible"papers please" laws.) Next time I'll try to make as concerted and well planned approach to offending everyone in as obvious and devastating a manner as I most definitely meant to do this time. Mohawk, not that you care, because I'm sure you don't, but you've proven yourself to be irrational and you've given me no reason to respect your opinion on any topic more serious than who would make a better beer pong player, Michael J. Fox or Muhammed Ali...

Have a better day.

 

[Fallschirjmäger]

My guess is he was talking about the state taking authority to demand papers without cause, based on nothing more than the way somebody looks. Does an illegal immigrant really look any different than a native born American?

Have you deliberately misstated the law or are you (at this time) ignorant of the text of the law?
1)FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).

So, um.. no, it's not "demanding papers without cause" now, is it? Jurisprudence has already defined "reasonable suspicion", what it is, and what it is not.


(My apologies for the All Caps, I copied and pasted so as to have the exact wording of SB-1070)

 

[Grapeshot]

Meanwhile back on topic or anticipate a lock.

The history is well known from the Weimar regime forward by most. If not by you then I suggest that you google it in private. It shall not be a renewed and repetitive hijacked subject of this thread.

 

[cshoff]

Have you deliberately misstated the law or are you (at this time) ignorant of the text of the law?
1)FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).

So, um.. no, it's not "demanding papers without cause" now, is it? Jurisprudence has already defined "reasonable suspicion", what it is, and what it is not.


(My apologies for the All Caps, I copied and pasted so as to have the exact wording of SB-1070)

I never stated, quoted, or attempted to state or quote, the law in Arizona. Of course, if you care to point out where I did......................................

So, either you intentionally misrepresented what I said, or your reading comprehension skills need some work.

 

[ChiangShih]

--Moderator Edited introduction --
All members/users are welcome to post on any forum - but you are correct in that they should stay on topic.


Anyway, I'd just like to say, you handled that situation very well, Bcal. The letter you wrote was very professional. Sadly I doubt the officer got deserved punishment.
Also, as for the Nazi and AZ comment, his sentence structure doesn't hint at comparison. He said "This isn't AZ or Nazi Germany." Not, "this isn't AZ or similarly Nazi Germany." So there was no grammatical suggestion of comparison there. The only comparison is the one misperceived by the listener.

As for playing the Nazi card, Festus, WHO ARE YOU TO TELL US WHAT HISTORICALLY OPPRESSIVE REGIME TO CONSTANTLY REFER TO REGARDING GUN CONTROL COMPARISON, SOME KIND OF MEME NAZI?

 

[NG19]

Festus, I have tried to PM you. Either you cannot accept or do not accept PM's. If you can please PM me. Thanks.

 

[Marc]

That is an major exaggeration and amounts to LEO bashing.

actually that is what they are taught at the police academy here in St. Joseph. My brother graduated from this academy and i can verify thats the truth, they spend very little time on the actual laws and more time on physical training and defensive tactics. Nowadays the academy is more about officer safety than upholding the laws. Sad but true.

 

[chakragod]

actually that is what they are taught at the police academy here in St. Joseph. My brother graduated from this academy and i can verify thats the truth, they spend very little time on the actual laws and more time on physical training and defensive tactics. Nowadays the academy is more about officer safety than upholding the laws. Sad but true.

Yeah I don't want to tell everyone the amount of times I've had negative run ins with our police. Note that I've never been arrested or in jail or anything, I'm just talking like one time I was parked a little too far away from the curb so we could hop out and look at a house real quick. The officer pulls up and yells, "Hey, move your damn car. You want to get a ticket!?"

Most of the force are power hungry morons here. Now there ARE nice and law abiding cops, but I have to have a double take when I see one. I mean...one of them got away with murder for christs sake.

Oh yeah, ZEIG HEIL!

 

[Difdi]

cshoff, I know with you what YOUR intent is for it to mean, and I understand and agree with everything you said.
So I don't really disagree with you, I just think it gets old and others may read into it differently than you do. People have the right to use whatever phrases they choose too though, so if it's your cup of tea, so be it.

If you're going to selectively edit, then no statement is safe, and we should all cancel our accounts forthwith. You can make all kinda of incriminating statements by picking random letters out of even the most innocuous of statements, and quoting a person as having said that.

 

[Festus_Hagen]

Festus, I have tried to PM you. Either you cannot accept or do not accept PM's. If you can please PM me. Thanks.

I don't have them on for a reason.

 

[LMTD]

I don't have them on for a reason.

I suppose I will be mosey and ask the simple question "why?"

I was gonna shoot ya one and found it offf as well, no big deal just curious why one would disable that particular option

 

[Festus_Hagen]

I suppose I will be mosey and ask the simple question "why?"

I was gonna shoot ya one and found it offf as well, no big deal just curious why one would disable that particular option

Well, you know how popular I am with this crowd .:lol:

I was getting PM's from alot of folks I didn't care to get them from, and they were telling me my thinking was ... off. I didn't understand what I was talking about, and they then proceeded to tell me " the way " I should be thinking, which goes against me thinking for myself as well as believing stuff that ...well, I don't believe .

That's the Reader's Digest version. :dude:

And I just made it so people on my contacts list can PM me. LMTD, that would be you. This way I can control who I get them from.

NG19, sent you a request to be buddies so you can .

 

[peterarthur]

Why are alot of people on this sight always saying "Nazi Germany " ? :question: I don't recall anyone EVER saying it was, but people have to reference it over and over, like they are mesmerized or fascinated by it .

It gets pretty old and it makes no point except It makes you sound like you have no other words so throw out the Nazi card .

Many great responses already. Most importantly, I do not want history to repeat itself. Gradualism is the source of most evil, and men will tolerate a little evil at a time. It is the boiling frog syndrome. Well, I am not waiting to slowly boil to death and I am here to say "the fire is on", even if the water is still tepid. I am not waiting to speak until my freedom is half gone. I refuse to give an inch. Sorry if your bored with Nazi comparisons. It actually might apply in some cases... Philly PD lately anyone?

But don't worry, those of us paying attention will protect those sleeping on watch...

 

[sharkey]

SNIP:

Me: Because I'm not required by law to show him my ID unless you have RAS to believe a crime is committed. This isn't Arizona or Nazi Germany. I don't have to show you my "papers" just because you ask.

Please back up your media-fed, Godwin's law violating, derogatory statement about one of the freest states in the Union with a cite. :cuss:

 

[LMTD]

Well, you know how popular I am with this crowd .:lol:

I would not win a popularity contest anywhere so I understand.

I learn more from listening to opposing opinions than I do confirmations of my own position. Sometimes it furthers my resolve and sometimes it changes my position. For a lack of better terms I am in a constant state of evolution so to speak.

 

[sharkey]

I never stated, quoted, or attempted to state or quote, the law in Arizona. Of course, if you care to point out where I did......................................

So, either you intentionally misrepresented what I said, or your reading comprehension skills need some work.

How about right here? You certainly imply what the law is, apparently, without having any clue as to it's content. There is nothing in the law that allows anyone to demand "papers" or ID based on how someone looks.

My guess is he was talking about the state taking authority to demand papers without cause, based on nothing more than the way somebody looks. Does an illegal immigrant really look any different than a native born American?

I'll share a saying of mine for the fun of it, though it is off topic.

I have friends of all socio-economic, ethnic, gender, age, sexuality and political belief backgrounds. They all have one trait in common, they speak English.

 

[Reverend BCal]

Man, and I thought the red neck, chew spittin', truck drivin', deer huntin', PBR drinkin' folks of Missouri were proud of their state, but you boys down under put us to shame! I'm sure there are much bigger and better things to worry about than what one dumb ass city boy said about Tex-Mex. Yee haw!

Grow up, please. I hope we Missourians don't flit around other state's threads attempting to thwart miscreants who would DARE utter our state's name in a conversation with Barney Fife. Must. Stop. Typing.

 

[sharkey]

Yes, taking pride in my state and being offended by someone spreading a fallacy shows my level of immaturity. :banghead:

Or, might you be showing a level of immaturity by telling me to grow up and acting like you own the MO. forum?

 

[LMTD]

WTF!

I do not know AZ law so FORGIVE ME!

How the hell the identification requirements for non licensed activities in MISSOURI is morphing into the immigration debate of last year in AZ I do not understand or freakin care!


In MO without RAS you do not HAVE to identify, however, it is NOT the end of the story and while you may desire to be the Rosa Parks of Identity, you are going to need a barrel of hundreds to pull it off.

If you do not seek to give ID, by all means, skip licensed activities and DO NOT CARRY the id, if you do but claim you do not have it, you lied to cops and Martha Stewart can testify to the problems with that while engaged in legal activities.

A cop requesting ID and demanding it are separate issues, the NAZI's demanded it with penalties associated with not producing it. If you are engaged in a licensed activity you had better have it and produce it on demand, if not, you still may well be compelled to give your name, where you are coming from, and where you are going. Answering those questions are NOT the end of the world or being subservient to the government, they are simply acknowledging that you are indeed not a lawyer, it aint court, and despite your own opinion you are providing the maximum information required by law and if you are skilled at keeping your mouth shut beyond that, the information provided has little chance of rendering you to criminal charges assuming you keep it generic in nature.


Aka: my name is Rich XXX, I am coming from work, I am heading home, I feel I am being interrogated for criminal behavior because of your demands, I do not consent to any searches or seizures and I will not be answering any questions, I want to see a lawyer. Then shut your freakin pie hole. When he ask the address of "work" respond "I am not answering any questions sir, I want to see a lawyer, repeat as required.

RAS is not a good debate, while they are SUPPOSED to have it BEFORE asking questions, rest assured they will develop it over time if you let them. Print out the above paragraph, take it to your lawyer, ask him if it fits 100% of the situations and mirrors his advice in all 50 states and then follow his/her advice, I am sharing because it is the exact advice I have gotten from my own lawyer.

The point is, the ID thing is anal, SCOTUS is a LONG LONG way off and mega bucks, unless you have super duper reasons, your freakin name is NOT incriminating, where you are coming from and going are not defined as GPS coordinates and answering in a generic "work" or "the store" meet the requirements of law without condemning yourself.

The great ID debate and legalities is the product of internet lawyers, legality and BS. The most powerful right you have is the one to remain silent and as a general rule LEO's HATE the "roadside" court and will bull up, take control while depending upon the resources of the state to defend their position as well as the "reasonable" interpretation by a court before they will back off.

Get your absolute advice from a lawyer, stand your ground as you see fit, just remember, even the constitution of this country remains open to debate and interpretation and not necessarily YOURS.

 

[Richieg150]

Please back up your media-fed, Godwin's law violating, derogatory statement about one of the freest states in the Union with a cite. :cuss:

Now I dont know the gun laws in Arizona, because I dont live there, I havent felt the need or desire to research them all out. But I know know there are places ,like Philedelphia, where you have to have papers to carry a firearm, have them on your person, and produce them when asked. I found that out by reading it on this site. The original reference to Nazi's demanding papers was I sure meant, as no disrespect to Arizona, but along the same line of thought as having to produce papers, or ID, without RES. It really amazes me how supposedly grown adults, will take offence to any remark, that isnt technically & grammicly perfect, taking it word for word, acting like it was written in stone.There used to be a phrase, "Sticks and Stones will break my Bones but Words will Never hurt Me". By reading some of the replies on this post, and on others, if some get riled by the use of a word , on the internet, how much more do they get riled in public or real life. People who know NOTHING about this movement of Opencarry, will read this stuff some rant on here about, and get an apinion, that I cant disagree about. Guys, and Gals, sometimes by our actions we are our own worst enemies.It time to sit back take a DEEP LONG BREATH, and battle the things that we are trying to battle together........