ATF - Illegal to sell guns to marijuana card holders

[Tawnos]

So we shouldn't deny the mentally impaired the right to self defense either.

Do you know what due process of law is? If somebody is found to be a danger to themselves or others, they should be held, but not until then. Presupposition of wrongdoing is asinine.

What about people that are drunk, let’s give them guns and car keys, it would do away with the DUI problem and increase the funeral home business.

False analogy. Please try not to make those, they make you look dumb.

Just like with alcohol, and some medications, marijuana impairs a person’s ability to react or make good judgments. If you are on a medication everyday that impairs your reflex or mental abilities then you shouldn't be carrying a firearm. Everyone I have heard about taking marijuana for a chronic medical condition smokes it every day so they are under the influence every day. If that is the case you would agree to give the car keys back to the drunks as we shouldn't limit their ability to drive just because they are drunk.

Let's make the giant ASSumption that what you said is 100% correct, even though it's not. Slowed reaction time alone is not justification for deprivation of rights.

A upper can be as bad as a downer when it comes to reaction times and making a good chioce when carring a firearm. Most people Identify with the term NARCODIC when referring to a drug that changes a persons way of thinking. We can throw all types of medical terms around but it wouldn't be fair to people that don't have a medical back ground.

With your spelling, I doubt you have the medical background you claim. Regardless, narcotic has a definition (a : a drug (as opium or morphine) that in moderate doses dulls the senses, relieves pain, and induces profound sleep but in excessive doses causes stupor, coma, or convulsions b : a drug (as marijuana or LSD) subject to restriction similar to that of addictive narcotics whether physiologically addictive and narcotic or not ). Note that "b" actually says "whether ... narcotic or not". As I said, it's a useless term, because it can be applied to things that aren't actually narcotics. Not getting enough sleep can be as bad as drugs when it comes to reaction times and making a good choice when carrying a firearm. However, I don't foresee you supporting legislation that preemptively strips the right to keep and bear arms from those who get less than eight hours a night.

You are very impressive with your spelling out a lot of medical terms; I thought about typing out all that crap but decided to keep it in simple terms as not to sound like an arrogant *****.

You misspelled common terms, so those who wanted to do their own research would have trouble looking them up. Specifically, NSAID. If I really wanted to sound like an ass, I'd have said a non-specific COX inhibitor .

Either way, I’m just tired of our civil liberties being taken away due to the war on some drugs. It’s things like that which lead to cops being able to break down your door and do a warrantless search for fear that drugs might be flushed. Chasing cannabis users leads to unnecessary shooting of animals (with its associated risks). It leads to no-knock warrants, where a man gets killed when he’s holding a golf club because somebody just broke down the door. These are just three of the many examples where we are put in danger, not because of drug users, but because of the policies to try to eliminate drugs.

 

[waterfowl woody]

ATF FORM 4473: e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana, or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any other controlled
substance?

If you have a medical marijuana card the answer is NO!
Contolled substances would that include drinking as it is age restricted? and if it falls under depressant or stimulant. That would make alot of people who drink a couple beers a day everyday addicted, right? oops alot of people out there and on here lied on there form.
I guess if you have a perscription then you are lawful and addiction is just ones opinion?
hey viagra is a stimulant!!!!!!! so choose a erection or a gun.
gosh are they gonna piss test me next time I go buy a gun? Thankfully I will pass all of those senerios, but really.

 

[amzbrady]

Since Marijuana is illegal under Federal Law there is no way one can be using it legally---under Federal Law. Since the ATF regs are Federal basically they are saying "We don't care if your State says it's OK, We don't", therefore anyone with a Medical MJ card that answers "No" to this question will be guilty of violating another Federal Law as well.

ATF FORM 4473: e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana, or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any other controlled
substance?

If you have a medical marijuana card the answer is NO!
Contolled substances would that include drinking as it is age restricted? and if it falls under depressant or stimulant. That would make alot of people who drink a couple beers a day everyday addicted, right? oops alot of people out there and on here lied on there form.
I guess if you have a perscription then you are lawful and addiction is just ones opinion?
hey viagra is a stimulant!!!!!!! so choose a erection or a gun.
gosh are they gonna piss test me next time I go buy a gun? Thankfully I will pass all of those senerios, but really.

So if you have guns, and get a card will they be able to take them away? If not, I guess you better get all the guns you want before you get your stoners card.
View attachment 7002

 

[Dave_pro2a]

This thread is good.

It clearly differentiates the gun grabber forum members from 2nd Amendment supporters.

 

[END_THE_FED]

So... I am confused at the moment.... are they defining Medical Marijuana users as felons, and denying their right to buy a firearm NOW? I still don't understand the issues with Medical Marijuana and its legality STATE-WISE, but I am confused at this.... wouldn't Marijuana users already be denied the right since it's still a federal offense to use Marijuana?

It is not a federal offense to use marijuana. The CSA bans possession and manufacture not use. So how can anyone be an "illegal user" ?

So if you have guns, and get a card will they be able to take them away? If not, I guess you better get all the guns you want before you get your stoners card....

Well in Wa. you don't get a "card" per say. You get a letter of recommendation from a doctor. You can use this letter as an "affirmative defense" in court. There is no State database. The State will not even know you have a letter of recommendation unless and until you need to go to court.

 

[END_THE_FED]

ATF FORM 4473: e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana, or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?

what they mean by "controlled substance" is anything defined as such by the CSA. Many people are addicted to the drugs that they are prescribed. For example, I have a friend who is addicted to adderal, another who was addicted to xanax, and know a few people who were addicted to the pain meds they were given after major surgery.

Should these people not have the right to bear arms?

 

[END_THE_FED]

....... If you are on a medication everyday that impairs your reflex or mental abilities then you shouldn't be carrying a firearm. Everyone I have heard about taking marijuana for a chronic medical condition smokes it every day so they are under the influence every day. If that is the case you would agree to give the car keys back to the drunks as we shouldn't limit their ability to drive just because they are drunk.....

I understand not allowing a person who is drunk to drive. But would you say they should not even be able to own a car? I dont car if someone who is drunk has a car in their driveway. I just don't want them on the road drunk.

I don't mind if a drunk person has a gun on their hip, or nightstand, but I hope I don't see them shooting at the pit.

Also the way alcohol effects someone and the way marijuana effects someone are extremely different. It really is not a fair comparison.

But the effect is in the dose. I know someone who consumes small amounts of Marijuana for medical use. The amount this person takes is enough to relieve the pressure in the eyes caused by glaucoma, but not enough to get high. Just like when one is prescribed vicoden, sometimes it is enough to dull the pain but not necessarily enough to get one high.

......who cares, I never said to deny rights and other than breathing what do you classify as a NATURAL RIGHT. Do you give a loaded gun to a 3 year old? I wouldn't but it sounds like you don't care after all it is his NATURAL RIGHT

What else is a natural right? Life, Liberty, Property, and the right to protect all three.

Give a gun to a three year old? Well this is a silly question, but okay, I will play your game.

A three year old does not have the ability/capacity to understand or to articulate his or her rights. Until they can it is up to their guardian. If the child's guardian feels they can be responsible with the firearm and the guardian is willing to be responsible for the child's actions then yes, they can give a gun to a three year old.

 

[Difdi]

You need to attend medical school, there are different classes of medications. Asprin, tylenol, and Motrin are not considered to be class III or class IV medications. Tylenol is considerd more a anti-pyretic and Motrin is a NASID (anti-inflamitory) both work differently as tylenol is processed through the liver and motrin through the kidneys. This is why when someone takes an overdose of tylenol we worry about the liver and if you take to much motrin then we worry about the kidneys. Neither of these products you mention affect the mind like a narcodic does. As far as the 600mg tablets of motrin I usally use the 800mg tablets but today I only had the 200mg tabs so I took 4 of them. 200 x 4 + 800...yea I got my 800mg of motrin this morning and I didn't break any laws doing it.

Um, how precisely is your post in any way relevant to what I said? You seem to have seized upon something I didn't say, then ran with it into crazy land.

Nowhere in the law does it specify that a substance must be mind-altering to be controlled. Nowhere in the letter does the BATF use the term "illegal drugs", instead it uses the term "marijuana or other controlled substances." ALL DRUGS are controlled substances. Even aspirin. Even if the control is on dosage levels, they are still controlled. Regulation is a control. So is criminalization. If it is illegal to possess a substance without a prescription, then it is a controlled substance. If it is illegal to possess high dosages of a substance without a prescription, then it is a controlled substance. If it is illegal to possess any amount of a substance, then it is a controlled substance.

It doesn't matter whether you're talking about narcotics, opioids, NSAIDs, anti-pyretics, homeopathic quackery, whatever. It simply does not matter. By the letter of the law, if you take aspirin, you are using a controlled substance. If the FDA regulates it, it is controlled.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

ATF needs to go along with several other "Law Enforcement" agencies.

Why are people so afraid of freedom? Or only want liberty that agrees with their ideals?

 

[DocWalker]

I understand not allowing a person who is drunk to drive. But would you say they should not even be able to own a car? I dont car if someone who is drunk has a car in their driveway. I just don't want them on the road drunk.

I don't mind if a drunk person has a gun on their hip, or nightstand, but I hope I don't see them shooting at the pit.

Also the way alcohol effects someone and the way marijuana effects someone are extremely different. It really is not a fair comparison.

QUOTE]

I get what you are saying but ask yourself a question. Can a cop arrest you is you are asleep in the back seat of your car, drunk for a DUI. Yes he can even if it is obvious you are not driving. If you are drunk in your car with the keys in your pocket you can still get a DUI even if you are not actually driving.

Drugs affect everyone differently, I'm not saying someone smoking marijuana shouldn't be allowed to own firearms. Just like someone who drinks I don't feel they should have a gun or a car when they are under the influence of either drugs or alcohol.

I have seen to many innocent people killed by idiots that drink or take drugs and drive due to impaired mental abilities and God seems to protect these fools to say it is ok to play russian roulette with my families lifes because you want to get stoned and either drive or carry a weapon while going for twinkies. Does your child have to die at the hands of these people before you change your mind. Lets hope not.

 

[DocWalker]

I understand not allowing a person who is drunk to drive. But would you say they should not even be able to own a car? I dont car if someone who is drunk has a car in their driveway. I just don't want them on the road drunk.

Give a gun to a three year old? Well this is a silly question, but okay, I will play your game.

A three year old does not have the ability/capacity to understand or to articulate his or her rights. Until they can it is up to their guardian. If the child's guardian feels they can be responsible with the firearm and the guardian is willing to be responsible for the child's actions then yes, they can give a gun to a three year old.

Does someone that is drunk or under on drugs have any more mental capacity than most three year olds, I think not. I have seen drunks piss and crap their pant. People make a decision to drink or take drugs and drive everyday because once they are high they can't make a correct decision. They have the same mental capacity or less than a 3 years old. So yes if someone is high and decides to drive or pulls out his gun and shoots someone because he didn't get his twinkie fast enough I would say that would be bad. People die everyday at the hands of people that are high and do something they wouldn't do normally if they were not under the infuence and then try to get out of being held accountable. I'm not for regulation or govement control but if you kill someone under the influence then it should be automatic death penalty as I feel it is premeditated. Having a gun on your hip, getting drunk and then getting into a fight increases the chance someone will end up hurt and the other in jail. If you disagree then by all means put on your gun and let me by you some drinks, it is not a wise thing to do.

 

[DocWalker]

ATF needs to go along with several other "Law Enforcement" agencies.

Why are people so afraid of freedom? Or only want liberty that agrees with their ideals?

Not affraid of freedom but if someone gets high and kills my child while driving I should have the freedom to put him on his knees and pop a couple into his head. I hate all the laws and regulations but we have to have some way to hold people accountable.

 

[amlevin]

I have seen to many innocent people killed by idiots that drink or take drugs and drive due to impaired mental abilities and God seems to protect these fools to say it is ok to play russian roulette with my families lifes because you want to get stoned and either drive or carry a weapon while going for twinkies. Does your child have to die at the hands of these people before you change your mind. Lets hope not.

This morning's Kiro News showed video of a recent vehicle accident on Aurora where the car was literally folded in half after hitting a utility pole. Only passenger was killed, driver lived. Driver had been smoking pot prior to taking off at high speed. Just another "victimless crime", right?

 

[gogodawgs]

<snip>People die everyday at the hands of people that are high and do something they wouldn't do normally if they were not under the infuence and then try to get out of being held accountable.<snip>

High from marijuana? Really? Can you cite this? or are you carelessly mixing the word 'high' with the effects from other drugs and the topic at hand? You will find nearly no one who beats their wives, kills another or drive's 'high' under the influence of marijuana and causes an accident. As a depressant/downer marijuana has a very different effect.

 

[DocWalker]

High from marijuana? Really? Can you cite this? or are you carelessly mixing the word 'high' with the effects from other drugs and the topic at hand? You will find nearly no one who beats their wives, kills another or drive's 'high' under the influence of marijuana and causes an accident. As a depressant/downer marijuana has a very different effect.

It could affect people differently like most drugs. Some people are angry drunks while others just want to be friends. Same goes for people that take drugs or yes even smoke marijuana. Some get paranoia while some get other effects, it isn't just the munchies. After you work 23 years picking people up on the side of the road or treating them for overdoses lets see how harmless you feel drugs are. I have seen kids get calm and mellow from drinking mountain dew but for most the caffine gives them a lift.

Do I feel there is a place and time for drugs, YES

Do I feel you should be putting other people at risk while high, NO

The term high can refer to any drug to include alcohol. I used it as in the effect your mind has been altered by a outside agent. And yes I have seen people that were high on marijuana kill and have been killed while driving, I just say lets not give them a gun also, maybe we can have more dead people. Let everyone do what they want, kill who they want and nobody will ever be held accountable. I don't think that would be a great utopia and the effects of marijuana are not harmless like advocates say.

If you want to smoke the wacky weed then go for it just don't hit the road with a loaded firearm and expect nothing to happen, and if it does the person should be put on their knees and get a enternal dirt nap.

 

[amlevin]

High from marijuana? Really? Can you cite this? or are you carelessly mixing the word 'high' with the effects from other drugs and the topic at hand? You will find nearly no one who beats their wives, kills another or drive's 'high' under the influence of marijuana and causes an accident. As a depressant/downer marijuana has a very different effect.

One can argue "High" or "Downer" but in the end it's a case of one having their mental faculties altered or impaired. Does it truly matter whether they were up and flying or down and drowsy when the do something that kills or maims another while under the influence?

 

[gogodawgs]

One can argue "High" or "Downer" but in the end it's a case of one having their mental faculties altered or impaired. Does it truly matter whether they were up and flying or down and drowsy when the do something that kills or maims another while under the influence?

Yes. I want you to cite how many people are assaulted or killed by someone high on marijuana.

Now compare that to alcohol.

 

[MSG Laigaie]

Vitaeus said

More government has never been an answer to a question of morals.

SVG said

Why are people so afraid of freedom? Or only want liberty that agrees with their ideals?

begin rant
This whole thing reminds me of the "alcohol" thread. If you or those under your control are intoxicated or not in control of your self........DON"T CARRY
I do not want the government to "take care of me" I am not stupid, I can run my own life. If someone DUIs or OCs intoxicated, this is unacceptable. Currently we let people DUI a great deal and do not DO anything about it until there is a body count. end rant
I know of a few people receiving MedMar. They lead quiet lives, very discrete in medication and don't get high. The few that I come in contact with medicate, not intoxicate. Yes there are '70s stoners out there taking advantage of the system, as every "system" gets taken advantage of.

The "original " line here was that MedMar cardholders cannot purchase Weapons or Ammunition. See Quotes.

 

[amlevin]

Yes. I want you to cite how many people are assaulted or killed by someone high on marijuana.

Now compare that to alcohol.

I don't disagree yet one still remains legal and the other not.

Is your question based on the total number of those who "smoke" and "drink" or the percentage (rate) for each group.

In 2008 37,261 were killed as a result of alcohol.

In 2009 over 82% of the people in the US consumed alcohol.

Considering that many traffic deaths are attributed to alcohol even when THC is present in the blood stream of the "actor" there is no clear published number.

By virtue of the fact that people tend to avoid illegal substances, any statistic might well show that the 'rate" of assaults or deaths caused by those under the influence of cannabis is higher than the rate of similar occurrences in the "alcohol consuming" group.

Regardless, one remains legal, the other not. Being under the influence of either is no time to be playing with either car or firearm.

BTW, I am a major proponent of legalizing ALL drugs. Also in dispensing them free of charge to all the users. First thing to happen would be the collapse of the criminal empire that promotes drug use. Next would be the drop in residential burglaries, car prowls, and convenience store robberies that are for the purpose of supporting a drug habit. Our prisons would also have a reduced population. Not only would there be no more users locked up but the Dealers would be out of business therefore no more "offense" for them to be jailed on. Let's face it, there aren't nearly the numbers of "moonshiners" today than there were in the 20's. When was the last time we had a "Beer War" in one of our major cities like Chicago during Prohibition?

BTW: For your reading pleasure here is one cite on "Drugged Driving" (the most likely manner in which one will be "assaulted" or killed).

http://drugabuse.gov/infofacts/driving.html

Evidence from both real and simulated driving studies indicates that marijuana can negatively affect a driver’s attentiveness, perception of time and speed, and ability to draw on information obtained from past experiences.
A study of over 3,000 fatally injured drivers in Australia showed that when marijuana was present in the blood of the driver, he or she was much more likely to be at fault for the accident. Additionally, the higher the THC concentration, the more likely the driver was to be culpable.13
Research shows that impairment increases significantly when marijuana use is combined with alcohol.14 Studies have found that many drivers who test positive for alcohol also test positive for THC, making it clear that drinking and drugged driving are often linked behaviors.

 

[Dave_pro2a]

It's ironic that so many here advocate for the intrusive Nanny-State style of government.